Subjective vs. Objective reality

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Precisely. And, it's all coming from one projector.

(Which is weird, Arc, sometimes, you can really nail it for me, and other times, it's like a 747 at 36,000 feet, while I'm studying ants.)

Well, different peeps are asking for different stuff from Arc, so maybe that's it. I dunno.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

That might be the problemo.

Welcome to my world.

[Luciddd]

Arcanum I would like to see your answer to the challenge-problem I presented about subjective vs objective reality.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Well, different peeps are asking for different stuff from Arc, so maybe that's it. I dunno.

Actually, I understand why, though it's difficult to put into words. You come close with what you've got above, so we can leave it at that. I'm still cool, as long as you don't start doing stuff like defining 'preferences' a certain way ...

It's still just .. weird.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

This is a problem I challenge anyone to reason about subjective vs objective reality.

Let me ask it this way. Imagine that one day you wake up, and you are able to decide in which way your brain "decodes" all of the electromagnetic outputs which control nose, touch, ear, sight, smell, taste, time and space which is what allow you to know "reality". Not in some astral projection, OBE or something, but in your physical existence.

You snap your fingers and are able to appear in front of you an apple and eat it, snap them again and have in front of you an endless field when before you were sitting in your room. 100% real physically.

How real would these realities be? How real is that apple and that field? Are you by being able to effectively decide the 100% of your perception and convincing yourself in every aspect of it, effectively living it, indeed picking quantum states of possibilities which are different but real from the previous reality? In the same way as how a radio can by changing its signal tune into real stations of music?

Or would you simply be a looney? How would the "other people" percieve you after that? Would you simply disappear from their reality since you are "tuning" into a different reality they arent and thus you would interact with "other people" that were already in that sphere? Would the other people too experience the "shift" and thus you would appear as them as a "supernatural being"? Or would they simply see you as a looney who is acting like one who acts on a play, and you never left your room and you are just making yourself the "make me laugh"?

Reflect on this.

Pfft. I can answer this one. This one's easy.

But since, from past experience, any elaboration on the difference between reality and actuality has drawn very negative responses from people, thinking that I'm all "tied up in knots," so I'll refrain.

(A short response would be to question motive).

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

This is a problem I challenge anyone to reason about subjective vs objective reality.

Let me ask it this way. Imagine that one day you wake up, and you are able to decide in which way your brain "decodes" all of the electromagnetic outputs which control nose, touch, ear, sight, smell, taste, time and space which is what allow you to know "reality". Not in some astral projection, OBE or something, but in your physical existence.

You snap your fingers and are able to appear in front of you an apple and eat it, snap them again and have in front of you an endless field when before you were sitting in your room. 100% real physically.

How real would these realities be? How real is that apple and that field? Are you by being able to effectively decide the 100% of your perception and convincing yourself in every aspect of it, effectively living it, indeed picking quantum states of possibilities which are different but real from the previous reality? In the same way as how a radio can by changing its signal tune into real stations of music?

Or would you simply be a looney? How would the "other people" percieve you after that? Would you simply disappear from their reality since you are "tuning" into a different reality they arent and thus you would interact with "other people" that were already in that sphere? Would the other people too experience the "shift" and thus you would appear as them as a "supernatural being"? Or would they simply see you as a looney who is acting like one who acts on a play, and you never left your room and you are just making yourself the "make me laugh"?

Reflect on this.

Too hypothetical for me.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Pfft. I can answer this one. This one's easy.

But since, from past experience, any elaboration on the difference between reality and actuality has drawn very negative responses from people, thinking that I'm all "tied up in knots," so I'll refrain.

(A short response would be to question motive).

Do not fear, if any judge you based on your responses it is because of a closed mind. They think you ar "tied up in knots?" lol, let me tell you what, I think that if mind power is used at 100% (though I guess to do so you would need to be in a body that supports this like a very subtle body or a perfected physical body) you would be able to bring entire universes into existence.

I think this is 1000 times more crazier that anything you have ever thought and perhaps the craziest thing you have ever heard. So fear not, after all I am the craziest one in the forum lol.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Too hypothetical for me.

I just want to know, how you perceive the difference between objective and subjective or if there is any.

Ergo in short my question is, would a mind totally sane but convinced 100% of a reality to the point it can totally experience and live said reality in all its aspects, produce even if it is radically different from the one experienced before, a "real" reality as real as the one you are now typing into your computer or it would be nothing at all?

How would an external observer percieve the person, if he or she is looking at said person while this person creates said experience?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

Arcanum I would like to see your answer to the challenge-problem I presented about subjective vs objective reality.

Sorry, I would need to get into your subjective context, which means defining reality vs unreality, and separating subjective from objective, and then imagining hypothetical situations about it. It's not clear why we're doing that.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

Do not fear, if any judge you based on your responses it is because of a closed mind. They think you ar "tied up in knots?" lol, let me tell you what, I think that if mind power is used at 100% (though I guess to do so you would need to be in a body that supports this like a very subtle body or a perfected physical body) you would be able to bring entire universes into existence.

I think this is 1000 times more crazier that anything you have ever thought and perhaps the craziest thing you have ever heard. So fear not, after all I am the craziest one in the forum lol.

Okay, well, two points, then ...

Originally Posted by Luciddd

Let me ask it this way. Imagine that one day you wake up, and you are able to decide in which way your brain "decodes" all of the electromagnetic outputs which control nose, touch, ear, sight, smell, taste, time and space which is what allow you to know "reality". Not in some astral projection, OBE or something, but in your physical existence.

You snap your fingers and are able to appear in front of you an apple and eat it, snap them again and have in front of you an endless field when before you were sitting in your room. 100% real physically.

How real would these realities be? How real is that apple and that field?

First point is that, in my understanding, neither the apples, nor the field, nor even the eyes beholding any of it are real. At all. Actual, yes. Real, no. (I was trying to explain this through questioning in another thread, but since none of the LoAers could answer the questions, however simply, I resigned the project.)

However, I would also suggest that one question their own motive, when it comes to why they are snapping their fingers to encounter such a world full of apples. "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

The rest of the question relies on the "reality" part, hence I can't really answer it.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

Let me ask it this way. Imagine that one day you wake up, and you are able to decide in which way your brain "decodes" all of the electromagnetic outputs which control nose, touch, ear, sight, smell, taste, time and space which is what allow you to know "reality". Not in some astral projection, OBE or something, but in your physical existence.

You snap your fingers and are able to appear in front of you an apple and eat it, snap them again and have in front of you an endless field when before you were sitting in your room. 100% real physically.

How real would these realities be? How real is that apple and that field? Are you by being able to effectively decide the 100% of your perception and convincing yourself in every aspect of it, effectively living it, indeed picking quantum states of possibilities which are different but real from the previous reality? In the same way as how a radio can by changing its signal tune into real stations of music?

Or would you simply be a looney? How would the "other people" percieve you after that? Would you simply disappear from their reality since you are "tuning" into a different reality they arent and thus you would interact with "other people" that were already in that sphere? Would the other people too experience the "shift" and thus you would appear as them as a "supernatural being"? Or would they simply see you as a looney who is acting like one who acts on a play, and you never left your room and you are just making yourself the "make me laugh"?

Mmmm .... I would say this - the greater your flexibility in:

(1) changing your perception of reality; and
(2) moving fluidly between different perspectives

the less likely other people would perceive you as a looney (if you did not want them to perceive you as a looney). Why? Because you retain the ability to understand reality from <i>their</i> perspective and therefore you are able (if you chose) to communicate with them in a way that makes sense to them.

A simple example is Erin Pavlina. While she has the ability to perceive reality in quite different ways from Mr Average Joe, he is unlikely to regard her as insane. This is because Erin retains the ability to understand how Mr Average Joe sees reality. Therefore Erin can selectively tailor her own communication and interaction with Mr Average Joe, in a manner that will not lead Mr Average Joe to think that she is insane.

The most extreme method is simply for Erin to pretend that she sees the world in the same way as Mr Average Joe, and not tell him about the other ways.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Okay, well, two points, then ...
First point is that, in my understanding, neither the apples, nor the field, nor even the eyes beholding any of it are real. At all. Actual, yes. Real, no. (I was trying to explain this through questioning in another thread, but since none of the LoAers could answer the questions, however simply, I resigned the project.)

However, I would also suggest that one question their own motive, when it comes to why they are snapping their fingers to encounter such a world full of apples. "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

The rest of the question relies on the "reality" part, hence I can't really answer it.

So basically are you saying that it would be as "real" as our world is, which mean "not real" since nothing is real? As you said "actual"? Is that what you mean?

About "absolute power corrupts absolutely", I think at this level it would be irrelevant becuase there is nothing to prove, but I think it this level at least with our human understanding it would be "absolute power, bores absolutely". Humans are programmed to wrestle, sadly we are so much accostumed to suffering at least in some degree that it has became part of us.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Beingist

However, I would also suggest that one question their own motive, when it comes to why they are snapping their fingers to encounter such a world full of apples. "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Oh, the world would be a very, very nice place, if all the powerful, corrupt people were just interested in apples.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

So basically are you saying that it would be as "real" as our world is, which mean "not real" since nothing is real? As you said "actual"? Is that what you mean?

Correct. Nothing is real but reality (which is to say not that which is actual, but which is the essence of the actual.

An old friend of mine used to say often, "you create your actuality by how you perceive reality." He died some years ago, but he would have gotten into the LoA stuff, I'm sure.

About "absolute power corrupts absolutely", I think at this level it would be irrelevant becuase there is nothing to prove, but I think it this level at least with our human understanding it would be "absolute power, bores absolutely". Humans are programmed to wrestle, sadly we are so much accostumed to suffering at least in some degree that it has became part of us.

Course, I don't accept absolute power, myself, but I can understand how it might get boring if there was nothing else occupying actuality. Otherwise, I would imagine it rather as an infinitely expansive amusement park.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Mmmm .... I would say this - the greater your flexibility in:

(1) changing your perception of reality; and
(2) moving fluidly between different perspectives

the less likely other people would perceive you as a looney (if you did not want them to perceive you as a looney). Why? Because you retain the ability to understand reality from <i>their</i> perspective and therefore you are able (if you chose) to communicate with them in a way that makes sense to them.

A simple example is Erin Pavlina. While she has the ability to perceive reality in quite different ways from Mr Average Joe, he is unlikely to regard her as insane. This is because Erin retains the ability to understand how Mr Average Joe sees reality. Therefore Erin can selectively tailor her own communication and interaction with Mr Average Joe, in a manner that will not lead Mr Average Joe to think that she is insane.

The most extreme method is simply for Erin to pretend that she sees the world in the same way as Mr Average Joe, and not tell him about the other ways.

That is, if you relate to them the experience, if someone told you he went yesterday to 10 different dimensions and flew while drinking a soda you would think they are crazy or lying.

My question is, how an external observer would perceive you, if they are looking at you at the momment said person "shifts"?

For example said person weaves his/her hand and the room disappear, the external observer disappear and it finds itself in a 10 kilometer field where they are able to feel, taste, smell, and perceive it and even run the 10 kilometers as said person was able to "tell" his brain to ignore the electromagnetic signals the brain send previously and generate new ones with the desired effects, just like it does in the dreams but in full intensity and control and without being asleep but fully physical and awake.

However what would the external observer percieve? Not if they were told the experience but were actually present at the time? Would the person disappear from their reality sphere? Would it perceive a normal "you" as if the other you had shifted timelines? (subjective reality) or would said person simply see you doing random stuff like if you were in a play? (objective reality).

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Correct. Nothing is real but reality (which is to say not that which is actual, but which is the essence of the actual.

An old friend of mine used to say often, "you create your actuality by how you perceive reality." He died some years ago, but he would have gotten into the LoA stuff, I'm sure.

Interesting..... could it be that you merely percieved your friend as "dead" but he managed before death became his actuallity, shift to another actuality? Where there is a "you" who is in tune with said actuality?

All of this questioning came to me because a discussion I had with a friend about the sages, holographic universe etc.

He came questioning "Well, I dont deny some wierd stuff my occur, but not this ♥♥♥♥. In more than a thousand years nothing else has been proving. Where are this instant manifesting dudes? Why cant we see an undeniable demonstration of these people who "fly" and experience all this? I then conclude its false".

Said statement made me question my beliefs, which were divided in 3 options:

1) The people who experience this are liars
2) The people who experience this were deluded
3) They hide from the general public
4) We cant perceive what we arent ready to percieve. If you arent in tune with the reality of people being able to fly or manifest in seconds you wont percieve it, because it would be like asking a radio that is in tune with the "rock music" to listen to "pop music". This may explain why mainly the people who believe or are open to this are the ones that experience it.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

I just want to know, how you perceive the difference between objective and subjective or if there is any.

Ergo in short my question is, would a mind totally sane but convinced 100% of a reality to the point it can totally experience and live said reality in all its aspects, produce even if it is radically different from the one experienced before, a "real" reality as real as the one you are now typing into your computer or it would be nothing at all?

How would an external observer percieve the person, if he or she is looking at said person while this person creates said experience?

Wouldn't that be like an LSD trip?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

Interesting..... could it be that you merely percieved your friend as "dead" but he managed before death became his actuallity, shift to another actuality? Where there is a "you" who is in tune with said actuality?

Well, in reality, my friend was never 'born', so could never 'die'.

Otherwise, I don't understand how one 'shifts' to another actuality. Only one actuality, to me.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

My question is, how an external observer would perceive you, if they are looking at you at the momment said person "shifts"?

For example said person weaves his/her hand and the room disappear, the external observer disappear and it finds itself in a 10 kilometer field where they are able to feel, taste, smell, and perceive it and even run the 10 kilometers as said person was able to "tell" his brain to ignore the electromagnetic signals the brain send previously and generate new ones with the desired effects, just like it does in the dreams but in full intensity and control and without being asleep but fully physical and awake.

However what would the external observer percieve? Not if they were told the experience but were actually present at the time? Would the person disappear from their reality sphere? Would it perceive a normal "you" as if the other you had shifted timelines? (subjective reality) or would said person simply see you doing random stuff like if you were in a play? (objective reality).

Firstly, if you're going by the Law of Attraction, Mr Average Joe is also the creator of his own reality. This means that nothing enters into his reality, except that which he has attracted or created with his own thoughts. This means that the following scenarios may occur:

1. Jesus & Mr Average Joe will not meet at all;

2. If they do meet, Mr Average Joe will manage to not notice the works of Jesus.

3. Or the framework of Mr Average Joe's reality will provide a plausible alternative explanation for the works of Jesus, and such explanation will successfully defend Mr Average Joe's reality. For example:

"I must have been hallucinating"
"Wow, Jesus is a very good performer, just like David Copperfield"
"Oh, there is a scientific reason for this. I just don't know it."

You see, even with the Law of Attraction, when you manifest something, it tends to come in a way that is somewhat consistent and in accordance with the rest of the general reality you have created. It is much less likely to come in a way that you find totally freaky, frightening and bizarre. That's because your reality, as a whole, is created by you, and when you play with new thoughts and generate a new thing, it still arises from the overall framework of reality you have created for yourself.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Wouldn't that be like an LSD trip?

Not quite the way I see it. In LSD you are taking a substance that is found in the "out there", things in the "out there" tend to have already set attributes. So basically if you ingest LSD, you would ingest something that has already set the attribute of "changing some perspective while keeping it a mere mirage".

Secondly in LSD you dont actually get the full experience, but a mix up of sensory output, which is most of the time inconsistant and sometimes your body cant even move, while also your mind is aware and fully programmed with "its not real". In short you dont control the experience, the drug and its chemicals control it.

This hypotethical scenario, there is no LSD or external component involved, but the individual has actually conquered its full perception, believes it is real and expect for it fully, actually already believing and experiencing as real grounding the experience, experience it fully.

Basically what I described is the full LOA, with all its precepts put into practice. So if LOA is true it shoud "objectify" or take you when said possiblity is truly playing out. However if LOA is either not true or requires other more than that to work (for example the work of subtle spiritual energies) then said experience wouldnt be brought into actuality.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Well, in reality, my friend was never 'born', so could never 'die'.

Please, I'm trying to get a better handle on this. In what way was your friend never 'born'? He entered the world as a baby from his mother's womb like the rest of us didn't he? What do you call that if not 'born'?

Originally Posted by Beingist

Otherwise, I don't understand how one 'shifts' to another actuality. Only one actuality, to me.

So prior to your parents communicating, which commenced the natural process towards your friend being 'born' (assuming this to be the correct word) into his 'physical' actuality, which you relate to nowadays, how exactly was the previous actuality the same for him? And you?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Please, I'm trying to get a better handle on this. In what way was your friend never 'born'? He entered the world as a baby from his mother's womb like the rest of us didn't he? What do you call that if not 'born'?

Yes, the actual friend may have been born, but Who He is (i.e., his reality) always is, now.

So prior to [his] parents communicating, which commenced the natural process towards your friend being 'born' (assuming this to be the correct word) into his 'physical' actuality, which you relate to nowadays, how exactly was the previous actuality the same for him? And you?

No "previous actuality", so you lost me again, sorry.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Please, I'm trying to get a better handle on this. In what way was your friend never 'born'? He entered the world as a baby from his mother's womb like the rest of us didn't he? What do you call that if not 'born'?


So prior to your parents communicating, which commenced the natural process towards your friend being 'born' (assuming this to be the correct word) into his 'physical' actuality, which you relate to nowadays, how exactly was the previous actuality the same for him? And you?

NOTE, THAT I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS TRUE, MERELY ANSWER YOU FROM A SUBJECTIVE PERSPECTIVE WHICH IS I THINK WHAT YOU ARE ASKING.

In the subjective reality framework, there are no "events" only experiences that happen one time after another. The physical world is constructed by your subconcious mind in the same way in a dream the subconsious is able to create entire worlds.

In our "physical world" things are solid and have coninuity, but its only the illusion of it, however at the end of the day said world is not bound by more rules than your nightly dreams. When you interact with other people you are merely exchanging experiences with other individualized consiousness. You percieve people that are only in tune with the reality you are experiencing.

The physical world is constructed either by your physical brain doing electromagnetic interpretation, or a mind that create said "objective" outputs, your brain then interprets what is written in said signals and shoot the "out there" reality, in the same way a projector shoot a movie to the screen. A good analogy would be a videogame, there is no videogame at all, merely a bunch of numbers and letters which the compiler "read" and then shoot into the scream the scenery and virtual reality of characters existing and fighting.

So about your parents and stuff, it isnt real at all. Merely these are a bunch of experienced which appear to be conected by continuity but arent really, just like a movie is conected frame per frame, but you could calmly delete a frame from the movie and it would still run. Basically experiences created second per second, given the illusion of continuity.

So you are born in the world, your parents had you. But actually you only exist right now, the previous momment is gone is not real, you had a reality as a child and now as an adult. But the illusion of continuity makes you think a sequence in time is the one responsible, you are in tune with other consiousness that perceive reality in the same way as you do, which being a child that grew in time in an objective framework. All you have really are experiences.

So in a subjective reality, you could in theory wake up tomorrow as an old man without having to age, be young again, wake up as a beggar or as the richest man in the world, as a prisoner or as a king.

But this is extremelly unlikely since the mind is likely to keep sending organized sequences that create an objective experience.

At the end of the day in subjective reality if you could see things are they "really are" the only thing you would see in the entire universe more or less like this:



Countless formless waves or formless light that is traduced as a physical enviroment.

Why then we perceive reality the way we do?

Who knows, some would tell you is a random experience you picked up. Others that your previous "karmas" or experiences left an impression in you that makes you see reality as you see it. Others would tell you it is your soul or higher self which is sending this information to "you" to interpret reality the way you do.

This is a possible explanation as to why for some people LOA works since is all a matter of interpretation, the question is, is it done at an extra-physical or higher self level and as such changed would had to be done at that level? or would changing the immediate physical output would be enough to bring it into "real objectivization" or "actuality" as all levels are connected?

[Acting Like Godot]

I'll give you a simple illustration of what I mean about:

(1) how we attract things into our own reality; and
(2) how things that show up have to show up in a way generally consistent with our own framework of reality.

There was something wrong with a door in our house. The sliding door wouldn't slide properly. So my wife contacted a company and they sent a workman down to fix it.

The guy came to our house this week. Typical blue-collar guy, carrying a bag of tools like screwdriver, hammer etc.

After fixing the door, he chatted with my wife for a bit. He said that our house was "very interesting". He kept looking around. He said that he could see some "unusual energies" around the place.

My wife went on talking to him, and he ended up saying that he'd been psychic since young, he can "see" things and in particular, he said that he saw some bluish energy moving around our car park area. And said that it felt "prosperous".

---------------------

Now, firstly, I bet that for most people, this would be quite freaky. You don't expect a stranger to come into your house and tell you that he's psychic and furthermore to say that he sees some weird blue energy hanging around your carpark area.

For my wife, it was nothing much. It was a mildly interesting incident in an otherwise ordinary day. Why?

- She's pretty psychic herself.
- She's seen the blue energy before.
- This chap is certainly not the first "paranormal" sort of guy we've met.

In other words, in her reality, it is not really a super-weird thing that a worker who comes to fix the door ends up saying that he's psychic and he can sense something funny about our house.

This is not the kind of stuff that happens to Mrs Average Joe, but she isn't Mrs Average Joe, you see ... She's like me, we've had many miscellaneous adventures with mind and reality already, so this is just another ordinary day.

But such things just won't happen to Mr Average Joe. Unless he's prepared to loosen up his mind, do a little bit of stretching with his reality ....

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

Nice apple.

But really it could have been an orange. Or a blueberry. They're pretty similar when you get down to the subatomics.

[Luciddd]

Pffffff, I dont know if it is because I have been working on a freaking program all the day, but the more I see it, the more things look to me like how a videogame or video runs in a computer.

Maybe we are quantum computers?

[Luciddd]

What videogame is the computer of your life running right now guys?

Are you running the sims? Millionaire city? "Life of a computer geek"? GTA?. Perhaps we could switch programs XD.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

Maybe we are quantum computers?

Yep .... Google "Stuart Hameroff" and "Sir Roger Penrose" together in one line, and you'll find their experiment along those lines.

[Rajones]

Attempt to view your reality as subjective, and it starts to become miraculous, to the degree that you believe it subjective.
Proof enough for me.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Rajones

Attempt to view your reality as subjective, and it starts to become miraculous, to the degree that you believe it subjective.
Proof enough for me.

I don't think you can attempt to view anything subjectively, for that is like the default way we relate to everything in the first instance - how we 'feel' about our existence/environment/events. Rather it's the objective perspective - the hard-core actuality which is far more fleeting to our attention.