What are the pros/cons of turning a belief into a mental habit of thinking?

[RonSouther]

discuss?

[ChrisGinsburg]

I'm not even sure what you're asking.

[RonSouther]

People repeat beliefs...the most common are religious beliefs. What are the pro and cons of repeating beliefs?

I guess the whole question is....why do we create beliefs, THEN why is that most people repeat the beliefs, forming a habit of thinking?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

People repeat beliefs...the most common are religious beliefs. What are the pro and cons of repeating beliefs?

I guess the whole question is....why do we create beliefs, THEN why is that most people repeat the beliefs, forming a habit of thinking?

Because of the one centralized belief of 'I am a separate person'. All other beliefs stem from this and are the basis of the 'I believe.....'. Beliefs build upon each other and the image of a self is created, shaped, transformed and repeated and identified with. The pro is that life is able to experience duality and the con is that suffering is inevitable.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Because of the one centralized belief of 'I am a separate person'. All other beliefs stem from this and are the basis of the 'I believe.....'. Beliefs build upon each other and the image of a self is created, shaped, transformed and repeated and identified with. The pro is that life is able to experience duality and the con is that suffering is inevitable.

And what happens when that belief becomes a habit...specifically...in pragmatic terms, how does that show itself in daily life?

[RonSouther]

In other words, how do I know that I am in the company of someone that has turned a belief into habitual thinking?

[RonSouther]

Or another way of saying it...."is there any good reason to repeat a belief over and over and over again?"

[RonSouther]

And where did belief come from. "Separation" is one belief, but in general, what creates a belief and why?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

In other words, how do I know that I am in the company of someone that has turned a belief into habitual thinking?

They will keep telling you how great Osho is but say it's not about a belief?


Just kidding. Where do you see beliefs differing from thoughts that are occurring frequently and identified with in the first place?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

They will keep telling you how great Osho is but say it's not about a belief?


Just kidding. Where do you see beliefs differing from thoughts that are occurring frequently and identified with in the first place?

I see a "belief" as something innocent...just the mind's logical attempt to explain the unknown. I see it as a coping mechanism because of the world being so vast and our understanding so small. To be able to come up with a belief allows the mind to rest, meaning no fear of the unknown feeling, for awhile.

But to repeat that belief over and over again is to turn that consolation into an addiction. The true process of learning is to formulate a belief, live the belief, make mistakes, witness them and try to see what was missing. You're not going to come up with a belief to try to explain away something, then act out something other than the belief.

Then in acting out that belief and seeing something still not true about it, that leads to a further exploration.

But to stick to a belief, regardless of experiences to the contrary, and to repeat that belief over and over again, turns that beliefs into a habit, one that is in tension with our natural learning process.

We can see in daily life how strong our habits are and when we go against our habits, how hard it can be to repress them. That's a no brainer to witness. If our habitual belief is about the spiritual life, about our being and "God", it blocks our journey to finding the answer to "who am I?" Any perspective to the contrary of this habitual thinking will be instantly fought off by the habit. So the more a person repeats and lives within his beliefs, the more fanatical he is, the stronger his habit is, and the harder it is to reason with him.

It's as though the habit becomes a hard shell, blocking doubt and inquiry.

And for what??????? What possible benefit is there for making a belief habitual except to put one's illusion of life on cruise control?

It seems to me that a belief keeps us going during this life journey, but when it's a habit, it essentially stops the journey for a couple reasons. One is the habitual part, the other is the magnified fear of not believing. If the a belief in hell, e.g., is turned into a habit in the uncounscious mind, it may prove to be artificially too scary to let go of the belief of salvation. Or letting go the belief of heaven...it's described to be the paradise of paradises and to let go of that inflated idea is scary. The mind won't allow from the habit and from the intense fear of the unknown.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I see a "belief" as something innocent...just the mind's logical attempt to explain the unknown. I see it as a coping mechanism because of the world being so vast and our understanding so small. To be able to come up with a belief allows the mind to rest, meaning no fear of the unknown feeling, for awhile.

But to repeat that belief over and over again is to turn that consolation into an addiction. The true process of learning is to formulate a belief, live the belief, make mistakes, witness them and try to see what was missing. You're not going to come up with a belief to try to explain away something, then act out something other than the belief.

Then in acting out that belief and seeing something still not true about it, that leads to a further exploration.

But to stick to a belief, regardless of experiences to the contrary, and to repeat that belief over and over again, turns that beliefs into a habit, one that is in tension with our natural learning process.

We can see in daily life how strong our habits are and when we go against our habits, how hard it can be to repress them. That's a no brainer to witness. If our habitual belief is about the spiritual life, about our being and "God", it blocks our journey to finding the answer to "who am I?" Any perspective to the contrary of this habitual thinking will be instantly fought off by the habit. So the more a person repeats and lives within his beliefs, the more fanatical he is, the stronger his habit is, and the harder it is to reason with him.

It's as though the habit becomes a hard shell, blocking doubt and inquiry.

And for what??????? What possible benefit is there for making a belief habitual except to put one's illusion of life on cruise control?

It seems to me that a belief keeps us going during this life journey, but when it's a habit, it essentially stops the journey for a couple reasons. One is the habitual part, the other is the magnified fear of not believing. If the a belief in hell, e.g., is turned into a habit in the uncounscious mind, it may prove to be artificially too scary to let go of that belief. Or letting go the belief of heaven...it's described to be the paradise of paradises and to let go of that inflated idea is scary. The mind won't allow from the habit and from the intense fear of the unknown.

Seeing beliefs as helpful if used in one way and not in another is just another belief you are holding onto. The whole thing becomes very tricky and unstable. As I mentioned before, beliefs no matter how you intend to view them or use them or whatever are built upon an imaginary center and the collapsing of the whole charade doesn't make it any more difficult to navigate through life. If anything, it becomes easier. Those who are more flexible with their beliefs will move about a bit easier but ultimately be stuck within their own imaginary boundaries of self.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Seeing beliefs as helpful if used in one way and not in another is just another belief you are holding onto. The whole thing becomes very tricky and unstable. As I mentioned before, beliefs no matter how you intend to view them or use them or whatever are built upon an imaginary center and the collapsing of the whole charade doesn't make it any more difficult to navigate through life. If anything, it becomes easier. Those who are more flexible with their beliefs will move about a bit easier but ultimately be stuck within their own imaginary boundaries of self.

The question isn't about beliefs, per se, but turning them into habits....putting them into the unconscious mind is the question....is there any benefit to doing so?

I don't see it and in fact see that as a major problem in the world as it makes it practically impossible for 99.9% of people to have a journey to "self", or at least one that is detectable.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The question isn't about beliefs, per se, but turning them into habits....putting them into the unconscious mind is the question....is there any benefit to doing so?

I don't see it and in fact see that as a major problem in the world as it makes it practically impossible for 99.9% of people to have a journey to "self", or at least one that is detectable.

You're saying beliefs are fine so long as they don't cross some imaginary line of habitual thinking. I don't see that line and I'm saying the illusory belief system itself is the problem so far as the problems you keep outlining.

[taylor]

Even if you aren't repeating some belief over and over verbally it doesn't matter as your mind believes it and filters the world you see based on it.

Take something like a belief that attacking your neighbors car with a baseball bat might get you in trouble. I've never even thought directly about this once but I asked myself what's a random unused belief I have and the mind supplied it, which means it's in there somewhere. I'm never thinking about this belief and yet it functions in the background.

I don't see why it matters if you repeat a certain set of words or not. My take on beliefs is that they aren't what you say on the surface, but what inform the way you see reality and therefore how you behave.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

You're saying beliefs are fine so long as they don't cross some imaginary line of habitual thinking. I don't see that line and I'm saying the illusory belief system itself is the problem so far as the problems you keep outlining.

Not "beliefs" but "a" belief....the repetition of each belief. The line is when the belief is not a temporary consolation but takes on a life of it's own in the uncounscious making it likely that it will never die and likely that it will be strengthened with similar beliefs to keep it consoling....like someone believing in Jesus, then seeking out more and more Jesus stories that support the belief, seeking out similar Jesus believers to enable an environment where no one is going to challenge the beliefs in public.

These are beliefs that are given to the person as opposed to the beliefs our mind creates trying to explain away something unknown. One can't be a Christian unless the tenets of Christianity are agreed to in the mind, however, each Christian ends up forulating a hybrid religion...one that is a combination of the given beliefs and his own discernment, all of which are never tested because Jesus can never be experienced until we can travel in time, right? Until then, all beliefs of Jesus are untested and repeated daily, creating habitual thinking that has no counterpart to it in a belief-driven society. Each person tries to find a belief system to become addicted to and it's a rare person that ever considers a life without a belief system.

So the mind generates the beliefs, our own mind and the minds of others. To me, habitualizing them clearly is an impediment to the transcendence of duality into the nondual, from a logical life to a loving life.

[DANDUNGAN]

It seems that repetition is one way to turn a thought into a belief.

[RonSouther]

If we don't know the truth, then the best we have is a logical guess....to me that is what a belief is...a logical guess. When that guess becomes a habit, then we have truly poisoned out being by turning our minds against our quest.

That guess needs to be temporary, only to be replaced by the next version of the guess that reflects more truth than the last guess.

Make it a habit and the guess becomes permanent, unless the belief system collapses like the house of cards that it truly is. But because the culture and the mental health profession is belief based, more than likely the collapsed belief system will be replaced with a fresh one.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by taylor

Even if you aren't repeating some belief over and over verbally it doesn't matter as your mind believes it and filters the world you see based on it.

The mind is a filter...it hardly processes anything that is really around us...but the key is the habit part, not the belief itself. We can't escape beliefs, but we can escape belief systems that take over our lives.

Take something like a belief that attacking your neighbors car with a baseball bat might get you in trouble. I've never even thought directly about this once but I asked myself what's a random unused belief I have and the mind supplied it, which means it's in there somewhere. I'm never thinking about this belief and yet it functions in the background.

Maybe you don't like your neighbor and your mind equates happiness with assualting the car? The belief would be that damaging is car would make you happy.

I don't see why it matters if you repeat a certain set of words or not. My take on beliefs is that they aren't what you say on the surface, but what inform the way you see reality and therefore how you behave.

Well, just look at all the people that speak for God yet can't address contradictions like if God is all powerful, why does satan exist? If God is love why does satan exist? If I can defeat satan by resisting temptation then why can't God? If Jesus was God then why did he cry out to himself on the cross or pray to himself.? An so on. The habitual thinking simply won't address these stark contradictions. Either more beliefs are used to try to explain it or the subject is changed. Each belief becomes a habit and the believer can't see that his beliefs contradict....each belief feels so true and his natural bullcrap detector is powerless against these habits.

I witness this inability to think for oneself...it's sad...the mind is so strong and won't let go...it's not normal...not healthy and a misuse of this feature of the mind.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by DANDUNGAN

It seems that repetition is one way to turn a thought into a belief.

That's a nice way to say it....like it's a matter of degree...if it's not a habit, then call it a thought...cling to it inspite of reality and it's a belief...it's swimming against the current of life.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by taylor

Even if you aren't repeating some belief over and over verbally it doesn't matter as your mind believes it and filters the world you see based on it.

Take something like a belief that attacking your neighbors car with a baseball bat might get you in trouble. I've never even thought directly about this once but I asked myself what's a random unused belief I have and the mind supplied it, which means it's in there somewhere. I'm never thinking about this belief and yet it functions in the background.

I don't see why it matters if you repeat a certain set of words or not. My take on beliefs is that they aren't what you say on the surface, but what inform the way you see reality and therefore how you behave.

Yes, it's much more than words being repeated. Our thoughts and beliefs form our identity and personality and it is this that is protected, not the belief system.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Maybe you don't like your neighbor and your mind equates happiness with assualting the car? The belief would be that damaging is car would make you happy.

Hehe, no my neighbors are nice and I like them. Was just trying to think of an example for ya and that's where my head went to.

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Well, just look at all the people that speak for God yet can't address contradictions like if God is all powerful, why does satan exist? If God is love why does satan exist? If I can defeat satan by resisting temptation then why can't God? If Jesus was God then why did he cry out to himself on the cross or pray to himself.? An so on. The habitual thinking simply won't address these stark contradictions. Either more beliefs are used to try to explain it or the subject is changed. Each belief becomes a habit and the believer can't see that his beliefs contradict....each belief feels so true and his natural bullcrap detector is powerless against these habits.

I gotcha now.

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes, it's much more than words being repeated. Our thoughts and beliefs form our identity and personality and it is this that is protected, not the belief system.

Yeah although I think I see now RonSouther is talking specifically about the belief "systems" issue.

It is kind of a different beast isn't it. People are very rigid about it and don't even bother trying to change it. I used to be a little better at getting past the belief system filters and using whatever language they were thinking in, but I've been slipping lately.

I think I can empathize with fundamentalists because I used to be one myself and it always came from a good place.

[RonSouther]

Got this link in my email this morning about beliefs in the education system. The education system at least in America is a great example of imposing a belief system on the society, especially the kids, failing at providing a quality education, then blaming everything except the beliefs themselves for the failure. The system keeps repeating the same mistakes, rarely learning from them and it's still trying to tweak itself not understanding the entire premise is wrong.

How beliefs have caused a crisis in education

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes, it's much more than words being repeated. Our thoughts and beliefs form our identity and personality and it is this that is protected, not the belief system.

The words are the thoughts...without them, the thoughts don't exist. I guess you could say that word combinations are thoughts and thoughts repeated because habitual, becoming beliefs. A huge collection of beliefs become a dogma as they invade a huge portion or all of one's life.

The belief system is protected by the belief becoming a habit. That's the only reason why religions and nations perpetuate...the habit part. As since a belief that has become a habit feels true, we pass that false "truth" onto others, especially the children. The children have so many questions and we have so many beliefs, so we pass these beliefs to them without even finding out if the beliefs are true.

Since beliefs console the mind, what we are really doing is passing our mental elixir down to the kid for his future use.

Our personalities are simply how we learned to behave so that others will react positively to us. So around different people or groups we will behave differently. Like with the boss, you automatically behave one way but around a friend, you'll act differently. These are egos and they are false. The world can't handle true people. The repetition here isn't serving us because the personalities are manipulative. The other person isn't reacting to the real you but you aren't showing the real you. Conflicts is avoided which means a learning opportunity is avoided, keeping us stuck where we are in consciousness.

The worst thing we can do is harbor grievances against another...the worst thing we can do is suck it up, thinking we will get over it. By not engaging that person what do we do? We repeat over and over again the unreconciled issue, perhaps reliving the conflict hundreds or thousands of times and that repetition gets habitual. And the mind will project a belief about why the other person did what he did to you and it becomes a mini-dogma in the mind, affecting how you treat the other person and affecting your peace and health as reliving the stress wears on you.

If something happened with another person that I don't understand, what I need to do is promptly address him with my belief of what happened and with a question whether I read the situation correctly and be open to hearing what he has to say. That way I haven't made my projection habitual and chances are it was a misunderstanding that both of us are relieved to be rid of because both of us may have been burning brain cells on a misunderstanding.

I was a professional peacekeeper 44 years. For about 10 years, I suffered Irritable Bowel Syndrome from the stress I kept inside me, with maybe 4 or 5 years truly debilitating. I knew it was mental but didn't know how to stop it. I ordered Lucinda Bassetts tapes in 2004 and the first tape provided me with a tool that worked...I would get into these repetitive scripts and noticing it, I would interupt the thought with "I don't think this way anymore". And it was amazing...a few days later it was gone for good and I don't have to repeat that statement. I never listened to the rest of the tapes. I would role play each side of the argument that I wanted to have but didn't have the courage to have.

Personality in this sense is a social lubricant and an intelligence killer.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by taylor

It is kind of a different beast isn't it. People are very rigid about it and don't even bother trying to change it. I used to be a little better at getting past the belief system filters and using whatever language they were thinking in, but I've been slipping lately.

I think I can empathize with fundamentalists because I used to be one myself and it always came from a good place.

We see all sorts of belief systems around us in the world, but the one that gets are attention is the one that we turned into a habit, and that makes us think that our's is THE correct system and the other systems are simply folly.

A Christian won't value a Muslim belief system and vice versa. How can I have the habit of Christianity and then hearing the Muslim system, give any attentionn to it? I can't. I can't even see that the Muslim is simply a mirror of me, just with different habitual thoughts that have taken over his life.

The believers don't see that they've intentionally brainwashed themselves AGAINST their "God-given" nature to learn and grow. The mind has taken over with logic, repeated the logic until that logic has become like virus software in a computer. Look how hard it is to get rid of a computer virus and that is analogous to getting rid of the control of belief systems.

Our innate joy is realized when we have harmony through our whole being, not when we have the right beliefs. Belief make people feel good but in the same sense as a stiff drink takes the edge off. The feel good is temporary and when it wears off, then it's back to the "pub" for another fresh belief. The real joy is when we are free from all drugs which requires high intelligence. High intelligence is a by product of authentic living at all costs.

[RonSouther]

I posted this on another thread this morning...

We are born with a whole mind. We lose that wholeness as we are indoctrinated into religious, cultural and nation belief systems....habitual thinking that runs like software from the unconscious mind.

Self improvement programs mostly are new beliefs systems, new programming, in an attempt to override other programs that aren't working. So we get trained on the next great idea to repeat for 21 days until it's automated in us...yeah, that will fix our lives.

We were born whole and can be whole again, but first we have to "see" the process of the mind and how the making of beliefs a habit in our thoughts is what is fragmenting us.

For example, you see something in life that doesn't make sense...you start trying to figure it out. Once you've reconciled it, your mind rests and you feel a certain amount of relief. You got back the energy that your mind was using to solve this contradiction.

Now imagine that the contradiction is in your habitual thought. So anytime that habitual thought is triggered, like your "conscience" (your culturally taught idea of right and wrong, not your consciousness or inner compass), the contradictions in that conscience reappear in the conscious mind and once again the mind starts working on trying to solve it. And the unconscious mind also tries to figure it out. Our dreams are the unconscious mind trying to reconcile repressed desires and situations.

Belief systems ensure a really active mind and that ensures a live of addiction in order to create artificial moments of relief from the mind.

The path to self is the path to a whole mind. The path out of ego is the path to the whole mind. The method to enable the path is the testing of those beliefs that are running your life. When you can see, with enough perspective from enough angles, that Santa a belief system and not true, then that habitual thought process involving Santa is no longer running. The memories stay but the control over your life is gone. That is the method for all beliefs....to test them, watch for the results and be open to the possibility that your beliefs were wrong, otherwise your mind will blame everything else.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[RonSouther]

another relevant post from another thread

It IS the choice maker. If you really know, you don't choose, you just do.

Like you're in a room with windows, walls and doors. You want to leave the room. You already know that the door is the easiest way out because of your experience. So you don't choose the door because there is no guess about which to use to leave. You're not confused about whether to go throught the wall...you figured that out a long time ago that it doesn't work well. You've climbed out a window before and you know that it's possible but a lot of trouble and may be dangerous.

So when it's time to leave the room, you head straight for the door.

Now contrast that with being in dark unfamiliar room that you want to leave. You can't see anything. So your mind is left to guess which direction to go first. You won't be going in one direction with a fix belief pattern that this IS the direction dogmatically. You will be in a process of trial and error, learning as you go. With enough persistence, if there really is a way out, then you will find it.

Life is about starting out in the dark and through a process of trial, error, and witnessing, we bring light into the darkness. That's the process of leaving ignorance and becoming intelligence, of leaving fear in favor of joy.

That's the path. Without knowing the method to travel on the path, then life is about guessing which belief is the one to go with....and what does the marketplace do? It offers us a variety of belief systems to be our "light" but that light is false because it didn't come from our own growth. "Light" can't be given, it must be realized. So beliefs are false light and beliefs systems trap us into thinking the light is on when really we are groping in the dark. To have a community of believers in the dark with us makes the dark less scary.

[RonSouther]

The more I'm reflecting on habitual thinking, the more ways we do it are coming into view.

I never fit into the crowd growing up and the social rejection became a repetitive feature in my life. I mistakenly took that rejection as a belief system of myself and it became a habit that only a couple years ago was I able to drop.

I lived that false belief system self that in my case was negative and it stopped me from expressing myself much of the time, it made me afraid to speak up for myself in conflict, and that wall led to such a high level of stress that I can't imagine what damage I've done to myself physically, even though I'm fit as far as I know.

That false conditioned belief took on a life of it's own with me and ran my life. I feel like I lost so many years being so afraid to be me. In the sense of being "born again", to me this is the real "resurrection", to be free from the control of the false image of self and to live authentically.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Ron, you're dancing around your own rationalizations. You already know nobody is going to say that indoctrinated belief systems are fantastic. You've gained a certain amount of freedom from your past relationship with beliefs but your identity has merely shifted. There's more room to move around but you haven't yet recognized the walls that surround you.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Ron, you're dancing around your own rationalizations. You already know nobody is going to say that indoctrinated belief systems are fantastic. You've gained a certain amount of freedom from your past relationship with beliefs but your identity has merely shifted. There's more room to move around but you haven't yet recognized the walls that surround you.

Again, your analysis is missing the context of my experiences. Through your limited view of my being, I can see where you believe you're correct, but your words are not speaking for me.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Again, your analysis is missing the context of my experiences. Through your limited view of my being, I can see where you believe you're correct, but your words are not speaking for me.

You say you've found freedom from breaking free of conditioned beliefs correct? Does freedom need to contract back down and find problems and demonize things or is it simply free? Am I talking with Ron who is free or am I talking with the image of Ron who doesn't wish to look at the boundaries of his new beliefs?