What I've been learning about Jesus.

[beautyscientist]

Originally Posted by bodi

I don't think there's any evidence that 'Jesus' ever existed.

Convince me. I will honestly consider the best argument you can make in 1000 words or less.

There is no direct evidence that Jesus existed. But St Paul obviously did. Reading Paul's contribution to the New Testament I find it hard to imagine that he made Jesus up. I also find it rather hard to square what Paul says about Jesus with what is in the Gospels, but that is probably not appropriate to this thread.

I can't say that I find much that Jesus is reported to have said to be all that inspiring. If I could only have one book of the Bible on a desert island it wouldn't be one of the Gospels.

[dream]

Originally Posted by bodi

I don't think there's any evidence that 'Jesus' ever existed.

Convince me. I will honestly consider the best argument you can make in 1000 words or less.

Sure, as long as you can convince me in a 1000 words or less that Joan of Arc, Julius Caesar, Buddha, Mohammed, Shakespeare, Asoka, Moses, Carl Marx, Plato, etc. that they existed. We believe great men and women existed because someone long ago wrote about them.

[dream]

Originally Posted by beautyscientist

There is no direct evidence that Jesus existed. But St Paul obviously did. Reading Paul's contribution to the New Testament I find it hard to imagine that he made Jesus up. I also find it rather hard to square what Paul says about Jesus with what is in the Gospels, but that is probably not appropriate to this thread.

I can't say that I find much that Jesus is reported to have said to be all that inspiring. If I could only have one book of the Bible on a desert island it wouldn't be one of the Gospels.

Yeah, this is what most people would say about the gospels. Thank you for your comment as this is the reason I started writing about Jesus from the Gospel, for some to take a different look. I will continue the series tomorrow.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by dream

Sure,
as long as you can convince me in a 1000 words or less
that Joan of Arc, Julius Caesar, Buddha, Mohammed, Shakespeare, Asoka, Moses, Carl Marx, Plato, etc. that they existed.
We believe great men and women existed because someone long ago wrote about them.

Actually there's a much Better reason to Follow... in God's footsteps...
GOD KNOWS of what HE speaks (mere mortals
don't have) that 100% advantage like GOD/Jesus has:
to SEE the 'heart' of a matter; & therefrom to LOVE LIFE &
positively Encourage others to as well live Abundantly...

I LOVE JESUS: my Creator, my Daddy, my SAVIOR, my Teacher, my Best-friend, & my Resurrector...
That covers EVERYthing you could ever want... AMEN!

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by bodi

I don't think there's any evidence that 'Jesus' ever existed.

Convince me. I will honestly consider the best argument you can make in 1000 words or less.

Unfortunately, establishing the historicity of ancient persons is not a simple task, nor is it something that can generally be done in what amounts to a very small essay.

If you're sincerely interested, there's a lot of academic and scholarly writings on the topic, both pro and con, but the overall consensus (amongst secular historians as well as those with more religious orientation) is that the person known to us as Jesus did exist, though he was probably quite different from the semi-mythologised orthodox-approved version most people think of.

This is not going to be something you can be convinced of with a single post on a forum. If you want to know, seek, and you shall find.

However, while I'm not at all inclined to write you an essay on the topic, here are a couple of links to get you started in your quest (assuming you're sincere in actually wanting to know; if not, feel free to disregard):

The Evidence for a Historical Jesus/Against Mythicism in 400 Characters or Less Exploring Our Matrix

Did Jesus Exist? - YouTube

Those are both pro. There's also plenty of con, but in all cases, be careful which sources you choose to believe. The world is full of opinionated people who have no concept of scholarship or how to assess evidence, etc.

[dream]

Thank you sk8joyful and ButterflyWoman for your great comments.

Part 3

*******This event is of the sick woman otherwise, popularly called the bleeding woman. She did indeed have a bleeding problem believed to either be from a lack of clotting of the blood or she had a problem with extreme menstrual bleeding. This must have been a very shocking incident as it is logged in three gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke (the Doctor).

We will use the book of Mark as it is a bit more detailed.(But that is just my opinion).
Mark 5: 24A-34 This woman has been suffering for 12 years! And has gone to many doctors. The scripture continues saying she spent almost all her money trying to fix this problem but instead of getting better it got worse.

I remember seeing Bill Clinton on TV, on his trip in Africa. He was shaking hands in the most congested crowd I have ever seen I thought they might crush him as he squeezed to get through with his body guards determined to shake as many hands as he could. This is the scene I picture for Jesus as it reads, "A large crowd followed and pressed around him." Then the sick woman came up behind him thinking "If I could just touch his cloths I will be healed". And from that moment she stopped bleeding.

*******You know sometimes we have these desperate prayers when we need something or we need to get out of something. lol. After the problem is taken care of we look back and think how on earth did I get out of that one?
Or we have a problem that no one seems to be able to help us with and it usually gets worse....right before it gets better.

What I did not go on to say in the story is that Jesus looked around because he felt power go out from him and found out it was this woman, calling her "daughter" (a term of endearment). Having faith in something appears to draw out power or energy from Source and Jesus took notice. He takes notice of when we are faithful especially when hope seems bleak. Regardless of our situation, to have hope in something better, we will be rewarded.

*After Part 4 I will conclude on this topic of women, as there are so many women worth mentioning.

[SeaRod]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Dream, you can imitate Jesus' actions...whatever is reported in the Bible that he did, you can decide mentally to do....that's all imitation is, observing then making your mouth say the same things and your body do the same things.

What's missing is the heart. Can you imitate the heart of Jesus? I don't see where he did anything to imitate so he must have been driven by his sacred heart.

Now, how do you imitate a heart? The heart is authentic. How can authenticity be imitated except by being authentic too? But to be authentic too means to live by your heart and not imitating Jesus's, right, so you're not really imitating Jesus by being yourself.

The path is to be yourself, not to imitate....and that's an arduous path because the world will crucify you!

If you want to imitate Christ then live "truth" at all costs...not theology at all costs, but make your outer actions and words a direct match to your inner being and mind. You will be crucified by the society around you.

Great Dialogue.

First off, the way The Church interprets scriptures is in this way: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. Thus, Christ is risen-- he is alive here and now. From your definition, the pharisees "imitated" Christ, but they never transformed their hearts; it was their "own" doing.

Your question is how to become Christlike? From Church teaching and my experience. Becoming Christlike is a process-- an everyday transformation. It entails allowing Christ into our hearts, day by day. Surrendering our "Egoic" self and allowing the Risen Christ to continually enter and renew our wounded hearts. Then our hearts become transformed the more and more we trust and surrender-- "It is not I who liveth but Christ that liveth in me.-- St. Paul" Our authentic self is Christ. The more our egoic self (false self) dies, the more Christ lives in us. Thus, we don't become a mechanical robot reciting passages and words; we literally become Christ-like; Our whole hearts are transformed into the heart of Christ-- We act like Christ because we are Christ.

That is the Christian story-- so lovely, and so beautiful.

Also, your point on theology. Theology is the path, the map, laid down by the Church. If there was no Theology, then we would never have known anything about The Good News. It is because The Church has wrote down stories, and commentaries, and theology, that has helped preserve scripture and theology. We need theology to map out the Territory. We need God's grace to walk that territory.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by SeaRod

Great Dialogue.

First off, the way The Church interprets scriptures is in this way: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. Thus, Christ is risen-- he is alive here and now. From your definition, the pharisees "imitated" Christ, but they never transformed their hearts; it was their "own" doing.

Your question is how to become Christlike? From Church teaching and my experience. Becoming Christlike is a process-- an everyday transformation. It entails allowing Christ into our hearts, day by day. Surrendering our "Egoic" self and allowing the Risen Christ to continually enter and renew our wounded hearts. Then our hearts become transformed the more and more we trust and surrender-- "It is not I who liveth but Christ that liveth in me.-- St. Paul" Our authentic self is Christ. The more our egoic self (false self) dies, the more Christ lives in us. Thus, we don't become a mechanical robot reciting passages and words; we literally become Christ-like; Our whole hearts are transformed into the heart of Christ-- We act like Christ because we are Christ.

There's no path in what you said. It sounds lovely, but now what? If I'm cursed with Original Sin, how can I even transform?

The Risen Christ is not an experience but a teaching. It's mental. You are told it, you want to believe it because of the promise of salvation (greed), otherwise you wouldn't care. Thousands of people were crucified....no one cares about them. But we care about Jesus because he offers us something in return....salvation from our miserable lives.

So plug into the program, recite the plan as you have then wait for the second coming of Christ? There's no path. No transformation is required to believe in anything, including Christ. He's got what you want, and billions around the world have signed up so it must be a good deal, right!

Yet the world is a mess.

Something is missing, and it's the path. Life isn't a decision away. Love isn't a decision away. Dropping the ego isn't a decision away. Deciding is Human Will and ego is human will. To decide to drop the ego is human will...it can't be done.

The transformation has to happen prior to the ego dropping. The transformation IS the process of dropping the need for an ego. The transformation is to discover who you are, not to become like Christ. Christ was authentically himself...that's the role model...be true to yourself at all costs even if it means being hung on a cross.

That's the legacy of Christ, not trading belief for salvation. That's nonsense. You've got Christ to take care of your salvation and Satan to blame for your evil....you're good man!! Kick back! No transformation required and that's exactly the state of the Christian world. Lots of pretty talk but little real growth.

Also, your point on theology. Theology is the path, the map, laid down by the Church. If there was no Theology, then we would never have known anything about The Good News. It is because The Church has wrote down stories, and commentaries, and theology, that has helped preserve scripture and theology. We need theology to map out the Territory. We need God's grace to walk that territory.

Theology means "Logic about God", God Logic. We use logic to GUESS at what we don't know. If we know it, why talk about it. When we don't know, we guess.

Think of light switches on a wall. You don't know what switch is for what. You're left to logically guess. But in the present moment, you can test your logic. Go to the switches, make your best guess of what does what, then test your logic.

In theology you don't get to test it. You can't go back in time to witness Christ or God or Moses. You're stuck with your logical guess! What kind of life is that?? Seriously.

That is the fallacy of belief systems. The beliefs can't be tested so the beliefs can't evolve. You're stuck. To be called a Christian you can't carry Muslim beliefs and vice versa. To be called a Christian you must believe in the Immaculate Conception, the Resurrection, the Miracles and so on. To no believe makes you a Doubting Thomas (who by the way took Jesus's message to Southern India). You have to have these inflexible beliefs to call yourself a Christian (or any faith). That in essence means you're forcing life to support you beliefs and not upgrading your beliefs as you learn more about life.

These belief systems are pure Human Will. They are the very thing that Christ was against! Hello?? Christ wasn't a institutional guy, was he?

[ButterflyWoman]

WARNING: Nerd alert! Pedantic look at Greek root words. Skip if you're not interested in pedantry of the Greek sort (ooh, that sounds like a naughty euphemism, doesn't it? ) Please take this post in the spirit in which it is given (i.e., from the position of a pedantic nerd! )

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Theology means "Logic about God", God Logic.

Not quite. And -- making this clear! -- this doesn't invalidate your point, it's just that I can be pedantic when it comes to Greek (and I'm about to be exactly that ).

Theology means, more or less, "an outward expression of thoughts about God" (or, in the case of the Greeks of antiquity, gods, plural), because the "ology" bit comes from logos rather than from logikos. It's a subtle difference, but when you consider words like gynecology, zoology, biology, astrology, and so forth, you can see it's actually about the expression of thoughts on the subject (i.e., teaching and study). Gynecoogy isn't "the logic of women" and "astrology" isn't "the logic of the stars". In all cases, it's more the discipline or study of whatever it is.

I told you it was pedantic (I don't want to hear any complaints that I didn't warn people ). And, as I said, it doesn't really have anything to do with the point about guessing, etc. I'm just a nerd (and I've studied theology as well as some Greek, so all my pedantic nerdiness just leapt up and demanded outward expression, aka logos )

Back to the discussion at hand. I'll try not to be ultra-pedantic any more, but no guarantees....

[SeaRod]

I know where this is heading towards. All I can say brother, trust and believe. I was there in your shoes about two years ago, just sitting in the fence blaming Christians for all their hypocrisy. I used to quote that famous Gandhi quote and all.

All I can say, once one realizes their own hypocrisy, one becomes more compassionate about the hypocrisy of others. To be human, is to be a hypocrite. We just need to learn how to be merciful and forgiving with others but more importantly, with ourselves.

Blessings Ron

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by SeaRod

I know where this is heading towards. All I can say brother, trust and believe. I was there in your shoes about two years ago, just sitting in the fence blaming Christians for all their hypocrisy. I used to quote that famous Gandhi quote and all.

All I can say, once one realizes their own hypocrisy, one becomes more compassionate about the hypocrisy of others. To be human, is to be a hypocrite. We just need to learn how to be merciful and forgiving with others but more importantly, with ourselves.

Blessings Ron

I am compassionate of the hypocrisy of Christianity and other religions. I dont need to be forgiving because I am not offended. Forgiveness is not about loving your enemy. One needs to look into one's ego to see that it's the ego, in a moment of superiority, decides to forgive.

Without ego, one accepts all as is. One sees that life is a journey of trial and error and learning from those errors. To think life is about clinging to beliefs in return for salvation is a pipe dream. Save yourself...learn from your mistakes and move on. There's no hypocrisy in living naturally like that.

[kobay]

Originally Posted by Andras

Jesus was a great teacher. He is not the problem, [some of] his followers are.

For me he is every thing.

[dream]

Sorry. I have been away and really busy with my non-profit (for Scholarships). We have a dinner on Saturday. Please pray for us to have many attendees. I have a Medical Doctor who will be speaking. I am so stressed but prayer and others encouraging words have kept me going.

I'll continue my posting on Jesus when things settle down for me.

Best,
Dream

[dream]

The Fundraising dinner was wonderful. There were many influential people who came and I was impressed with the caliber of professionals who donated to the foundation's scholarship fund. There was a Physicist, two Engineers, Business owners, Computer wizards, therapists and more. The Doctor did an excellent job of inspiring everyone. I could not sleep as I had so much fun. Everyone was networking. Near the end someone asked me to speak to everyone about the motivation for the foundation. I used the parable Jesus told, which I thought would be appropriate for the next post.

*******Jesus was asked a question by an expert in the law and Jesus told him this story to help him to understand loving your neighbor as yourself. "The Good Samaritan"
(Luke 10:25-37) The story of a man who was beaten and robbed, then left to die on the side of the road. A Religious official passed by, saw the man and walked to the other side of the road. Then a "brother", a man of the same culture and race saw the man and he too passed by on the other side of the road. But when a man who who was a Gentile, looked down on and/or of another race saw him he 1) bandaged his wounds himself 2) put him on his own donkey 3) Took him to an inn to be cared for 4) Paid for his expenses.

*******The third man had no obligation except that he had empathy. He did not do the bare minimum like giving change to someone in need. This man did more then expected. Today this may be equivalent to taking him in your car, cleaning him up, taking him to the hospital and paying his medical bills. This is the standard for loving your neighbor.

Someone Religious may not be able to see the needs. Someone who is on the same platform or similar beliefs or think they know you because you share something in common, may not see how to meet needs.

Jesus then asked the Expert in the law a question back: "Which of the three do you think was a neighbor?" The Expert said, "The one who had Mercy on him." Then Jesus said something simple but forever inspiring to me:

“Go and do likewise.”

[dream]

Conversations like this one are usually surrounding Jesus:

*******John 9:16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

After Jesus heals the blind man there was controversy. After word had traveled about that Jesus healed the man on a sabbath, when one was not to do any work, the Pharisees did not believe the man was blind so they called him in as his own witness. When they did not believe the man they brought in his parents. They still would not believe he was blind and that Jesus healed him so they threw him out.

*******Jesus was able to meet him later and calm his fears. He ended the discussion with these words:“For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

Controversies started because Jesus was always breaking the religious traditions to show that human life and compassion was more important than following man made rules. If someone was sick and needed your help, the religious law in that day said you could not help because it was considered work. some accounts Jesus told them you would help untie your mule but a brother you would not help.

Second, Today, people are still divided if Jesus was real or not and always need proof. Some have all the evidence they need and some need more. Some are spiritual blind and see Jesus and some believe they see him and are blind. Some Will follow Jesus like this man did as he sees what Jesus/God has done for him and some will not see anything God/Jesus has done for them. This will always be the division, then, now and in years to come.

[dream]

Do you love scary movies? Well you might like this one.

*******Did you know that Satan tempted Jesus, while he was on earth? Matthew 4:1-11 After Jesus was baptized (which he did not need to be but his life was about setting an example for us to imitate if we wanted to know how to get to heaven). he was fasting when Satan came to him to tempt him.

First, Satan used hunger and the weakness of the body to break his fast. Second, he misused the scriptures to get Jesus to do the wrong thing. (To even commit suicide). Third he tempted Jesus with riches and fame.

Interesting what other readers of the bible notice is that each time Jesus uses scripture to combat Satan. He eventually leaves but this must have taken a lot from him as it says angels then attended him. It seems like a struggle for righteousness.

*******This scripture makes me think if Satan can tempt Jesus himself, we will face him also. We can only hope we come out strong doing the right thing. Knowing your bible is important. In Ephesians 6 Paul calls it your spiritual armor to protect you from Satan's arrows.

As a few of you may know. I am a "Dreamer". When I was 25 I had an opportunity that was let's say "lucrative" but I had to lower my standards. I was in the middle of making an important decision. I went to bed and that night I dreamed I was in a waiting room. A nice man dressed in dark colors came and sat next to me we were having a conversation in the dream that I do not remember. I walked out the front door and he said, "Before you go, Matthew 4:8" I woke up and read the scripture. That day I turned down the offer. I look back and am happy for the decision I made.