Asceticism

[taylor]

Asceticism: "practicing strict self-denial as a measure of personal and especially spiritual discipline."

Anyone practice this?

[Reefs]

I would say everyone with an identity does. The identity doesn't allow to be fully present. It's strict self denial as a measure of an imaginary personal/spiritual discipline.

[taylor]

Not exactly what I was talking about Reefs but thanks for playing.

[nothuman]

Not self discipline in the sense. Monitoring sure. I have always been attracted to the middle way teaching as a way of approaching regulation. Excessive self discipline has always appeared to me like a form of punishing the body or mind for having attachments or desires.

[taylor]

I think the middle way advocates something approaching monastic life rather than the normal lifestyle where you have pleasure for its own sake. A lifestyle like the Cistercian monks would be middle way and asceticism, even though they don't do any self-punishment, just denial of pleasure.

Middle way was in contrast to what Buddha did initially in his quest for truth where he did torture himself in a variety of ways like sleeping on nails.

[nothuman]

Originally Posted by taylor

I think the middle way advocates something approaching monastic life rather than the normal lifestyle where you have pleasure for its own sake. A lifestyle like the Cistercian monks would be middle way and asceticism, even though they don't do any self-punishment, just denial of pleasure.

Middle way was in contrast to what Buddha did initially in his quest for truth where he did torture himself in a variety of ways like sleeping on nails.

Not at all simply an approach that favours regulation over restriction.

[taylor]

Wow, no one?

It's a spiritual tradition going back for millenia and no one has at least played with it?

[bodi]

I spent eight years active duty army, five of which was infantry. I've played with it...

[taylor]

Originally Posted by bodi

I spent eight years active duty army, five of which was infantry. I've played with it...

haha, now we're talkin.

[VinceG]

You're really surprised at this? Asceticism is a SE Asian idea that lived and died with the culture that produced it. The idea was that worldly life is distracting from spirituality, and the hustle and bustle of living there practically ensured it.

World consciousness has progressed past the point where asceticism is terribly helpful at helping people to connect with God. Most people are capable of living in the world while searching for God at the same time. Or they've chosen a worldly path that itself brings them closer to God.

[taylor]

No, I'm feigning surprise to try to draw people out.

I'm not surprised that people on this forum aren't interested in it because this is a mostly new agey bunch which encourages feeling good. However, I do assume some people have tried it in the course of their path so I'd be interested to hear from them if they'd be willing.

I'm not so sure we've evolved past it or we're just westernized and like our creature comforts a little too much to entertain the idea.

When I read something like The Bhagavad-Gita or look at the lives of Gandhi or some saint, I notice my attachment to comfort that needs to go at some point. No one else feels this way?

The pain/pleasure motivation is wired so deep in our psyches I think it's involved in almost all motivated behavior. I notice nowadays when I have some block in life it's almost always due on some level to wanting to avoid pain or pursue pleasure.

[FlabRoshi]

The buddhist teaching is that ascetism is based on trying to escape from suffering into an idea of spirituality.

However, buddha discovered that so long as you are human there is no escape from being human.

The middle way is the teaching that the truth is neither spiritual, nor material. It is in between.

Also, samsara and nirvana are one and the same.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by taylor

No, I'm feigning surprise to try to draw people out.

I'm not surprised that people on this forum aren't interested in it because this is a mostly new agey bunch which encourages feeling good. However, I do assume some people have tried it in the course of their path so I'd be interested to hear from them if they'd be willing.

I'm not so sure we've evolved past it or we're just westernized and like our creature comforts a little too much to entertain the idea.

When I read something like The Bhagavad-Gita or look at the lives of Gandhi or some saint, I notice my attachment to comfort that needs to go at some point. No one else feels this way?

The pain/pleasure motivation is wired so deep in our psyches I think it's involved in almost all motivated behavior. I notice nowadays when I have some block in life it's almost always due on some level to wanting to avoid pain or pursue pleasure.

Go to the Tibet mountains and you will find people living in extremely harsh (in comparison to most) conditions. Check if most people there get the path shortened because of the hardship, before you decide to torture yourself.

[taylor]

You think a monastic styled life is "torturing yourself?"

In other news,

I guess the ultimate form of asceticism is fasting from thought.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by taylor

I notice my attachment to comfort that needs to go at some point. No one else feels this way?

I've examined this recently. First off, lots of enlightened people stay in the same place for the rest of their lives. Ramana Maharshi, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, Sri Aurobindo. To some extent David Hawkins. There's something about a routine that allows you to do great work, and steadily work on consciousness progress. At some point you have to ask yourself whether it's really not an attachment to novelty you're cultivating by continuously seeking to break your attachment to comfort.

Second, an attachment to comfort is not broken by becoming an ascetic. That's just replacing one comfort zone with another. The stoics had a great way of dealing with this. They said one should go hungry once a month, just to remember what it felt like. Take advantage of the conveniences the world has to offer, because you can't get as much done without them, just remember not to get too hung up on them.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by VinceG

I've examined this recently. First off, lots of enlightened people stay in the same place for the rest of their lives. Ramana Maharshi, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, Sri Aurobindo. To some extent David Hawkins. There's something about a routine that allows you to do great work, and steadily work on consciousness progress. At some point you have to ask yourself whether it's really not an attachment to novelty you're cultivating by continuously seeking to break your attachment to comfort.

Second, an attachment to comfort is not broken by becoming an ascetic. That's just replacing one comfort zone with another. The stoics had a great way of dealing with this. They said one should go hungry once a month, just to remember what it felt like. Take advantage of the conveniences the world has to offer, because you can't get as much done without them, just remember not to get too hung up on them.

David went through an ascetic phase when he was also really into ACIM, where I think most of his spiritual progress was made. He talked about eating nothing for days, using candles, sleeping on a cot, giving away all his books, don't even think he had a job, etc. just letting go and trusting that providence would take care of him. Nowadys he's resumed the cozy life having outgrown the need for that phase.

Nisargadatta as well went through a phase, not with intentionally giving up comforts, but living as if "already dead" he called it where he just did the "I AM" meditation and worked and that was it. That much meditation is more intense than I could probably bare right now without some external system like a monastery forcing me to do it.

When I'm talking about asceticism I'm mostly referring to pushing the boredom comfort zone like Nisargadatta, not the pain comfort zone, or even the povery comfort zone like David. If you haven't you should check out Into Great Silence (2005) - IMDb which is three hours of slow quiet monks doing what monks do. In practice, asceticism is the opposite of attachment to novelty. It's super dull so that there's no focus but on your main goal. Actually my biggest attachment right now IS novelty. Take my avatars as an example you can observe. I can't stick with the same picture for more than a couple of days before I want to move on.

It's funny you mention the Stoic practice because I was using it when coming up with what my own version of asceticism might look like. A low sensory environment is ideal for most spiritual practice, however you can develop comfort zones around "spiritual" environments as well. What you need to do then is, like the stoics, periodically introduce an opposing condition to break up your attachment. With low sensory environments being primary you'd want to periodically go on what I've been calling "novelty binges" where you are forced to cope with high sensory novelty for a limited period, then you return to more effective low sensory having broken up your comfort zone. Also, I'd prefer to keep learning instead of doing what David and Nisargadatta did and just forgot about everything else. Maybe I'll feel different in a years time.

[Sekret Weapon]

yes asceticism is the ultimate art of letting go.

I find an extended fast can truly test your ability to ignore your screams


The best practice of asceticism is to deprive yourself of selfishness.


Here is an example of a POSITIVE ascetic practice.

Remove (deprive yourself of) the word "I" from both your audible vocabulary and your internal dialogue. This is CATABOLIC phase.

Asceticism works BETTER if you simultaneously fill the void with with what you want to replace it with something positive. THerefore, after you practice removing the word "I" for a bit of time.., then reinsert it back into your vocab but this time use the work "We". Then keep practicing with your transformed vocabulary until you condition yourself anew. This is the ANABOLIC phase.

Such practices will metabolize you into your beautiful self.
So practice practices

Love,
Joshua

[taylor]

We like your post Joshua. We found it interesting.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by taylor

David went through an ascetic phase when he was also really into ACIM, where I think most of his spiritual progress was made. He talked about eating nothing for days, using candles, sleeping on a cot, giving away all his books, don't even think he had a job, etc. just letting go and trusting that providence would take care of him. Nowadys he's resumed the cozy life having outgrown the need for that phase.

All lives have phases, or chapters, it's just enlightened people go through different ones than other people do. Right now I'm going through a worldly phase where I'm exploring spirituality by exploring the world. I still sleep on the floor, but I don't know how long that will last.

I expect this phase to last at least a decade, and in 3 years I don't expect anybody but my closest friends will have any inkling of the spiritual search going on underneath the surface.

Honestly, I think the goal is to avoid thinking about this sort of thing and just do whatever feels right. Spirituality and consciousness do not prescribe anything. You're supposed to be progressively giving up effort, and so in some cases that might mean asceticism, in others it might mean worldliness.

It's funny you mention the Stoic practice because I was using it when coming up with what my own version of asceticism might look like. A low sensory environment is ideal for most spiritual practice, however you can develop comfort zones around "spiritual" environments as well. What you need to do then is, like the stoics, periodically introduce an opposing condition to break up your attachment. With low sensory environments being primary you'd want to periodically go on what I've been calling "novelty binges" where you are forced to cope with high sensory novelty for a limited period, then you return to more effective low sensory having broken up your comfort zone. Also, I'd prefer to keep learning instead of doing what David and Nisargadatta did and just forgot about everything else. Maybe I'll feel different in a years time.

Okay, this is reminding me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine whose traveled Asia and visited monasteries. He talked about how the monks there chose that kind of life, so they could get closer to God. But that didn't mean that they were any more conscious than he was. In fact, most of them were less conscious. They chose that life because they needed the peace and quiet, the peace and quiet became a crutch.

Take a monk out of the monastery, and you have fish out of water. A truly conscious person will adapt and flow to any situation.

There's also the Zen principle that states that wherever you are is the best possible place you could be. Your soul chose the kind of life you're in because it felt that it offered the best conditions for you. Your subconscious put you in the very spot you're in because it felt that was the best spot for you. Once I figured this out, I was able to really relax to a great extent and start looking for growth opportunities everywhere.

For example, if my father and I are quarreling, the growth opportunity isn't to wish that I wasn't in the kind of situation that leads to quarreling, but to wonder what it is about my authentic response that's leading to fighting rather than affection. Once I fix how I respond to him, I can also look at the rest of my life and figure out how I could change that response too.

I think it's human nature to want to escape, and I think that's often the subconscious drive behind the desire for asceticism.

[taylor]

Yeah, I think it's more of a challenge to be conscious in the world than in a nice quiet monastery. Ideally a monk would outgrow the need for the environment, but usually they think it's a virtue to stay.