ho'oponopono question

[Andras]

I was driving in rural California while listening on the radio about the abused children by the Penn State football coach and wanting to do something I told myself "I love you, please forgive me", meanwhile focusing on the victims of the abuse and rape. A strange sensation came over me. I felt that there was something lifting up and felt better. Of course the purpose of this was that the victims should be healed and feel better, but that will never be known to me. I can only hope.
IN a way taking responsibility fully makes sense but what about the victims role?
Was the victim in no way responsible to evil happen to him? I always thought and believe that whatever happens to us is a direct result of our thinking.

[ChristsLight]

Their thinking is of no consequence to you. There's only one thinking, and that is yours. In hoʻoponopono, what you perceive as happening to them is just data from your own subconscious playing out in what you perceive to be the world.

So when you clean on it, it brings that data back to zero, and the Divine steps in. What happens, only God knows, quite literally. But that you felt something lifting is a real sign that the data was dispersing and returning to Source.

[Merrick1]

Originally Posted by Andras

Was the victim in no way responsible to evil happen to him? I always thought and believe that whatever happens to us is a direct result of our thinking.

What made you think so? Life is far more complex than that, at least from my experience.

Merrick

[Andras]

Not in this case specifically but often OUR thoughts have consequences on OUR life. Don't you think it is disjointed to deny that? I can see how I can attempt to "go to ZERO" to help others but their thinking can perhaps get them into trouble(so to speak), again and again. So why not face and deal with that too??
I am talking theoretically not practically. So instead of saying I am responsible, we should say WE are collectively responsible. or I am missing something?
The collective mind, consciousness is affected by all souls. To heal I can practice this ancient art, because it works. But as a teaching aid we should voice that all minds in the hive are effecting the collective, right or wrong.

Originally Posted by Merrick1

What made you think so? Life is far more complex than that, at least from my experience.

Merrick

[Merrick1]

[QUOTE=Andras;1017869]Not in this case specifically but often OUR thoughts have consequences on OUR life. Don't you think it is disjointed to deny that?QUOTE]

I do. But I am not denying that. I just said that there is far more to it. Often something happens to us as a test, for example. To test our faith, to test our resolution, to test whether we have truly learned the lesson etc. Then there are many things springing out from the unconsious which we are not aware of. And yet, they often have a tremendous influence on our life. And more...

Originally Posted by Andras

... instead of saying I am responsible, we should say WE are collectively responsible. or I am missing something?

In Oneness there are no others. So, we can't say: "We are responsible." But honestly, my stance is: Unless we truly live in that consciousness, this to me is but an idle talk. Few people have truly experienced Oneness, other than some fleeting states of samadhi. But many talk as if they lived it permanently. Well, it's interesting that they still enjoy talking to themselves on the forums.

Merrick

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Andras

Not in this case specifically but often OUR thoughts have consequences on OUR life. Don't you think it is disjointed to deny that? I can see how I can attempt to "go to ZERO" to help others but their thinking can perhaps get them into trouble(so to speak), again and again. So why not face and deal with that too??
I am talking theoretically not practically. So instead of saying I am responsible, we should say WE are collectively responsible. or I am missing something?
The collective mind, consciousness is affected by all souls. To heal I can practice this ancient art, because it works. But as a teaching aid we should voice that all minds in the hive are effecting the collective, right or wrong.

There is no "out there." There is only the mind, and it is your responsibility. Hoʻoponopono is about complete 100% responsibility, not only for your own thoughts, words, and actions, but for those of everyone in your life. We do not accept anything less than this.

Remember, there are no "people." There is only the mind, with its stories that it plays out. So it is your responsibility, no one else's.

In hoʻoponopono, you can't blame anyone else, because there is no one else to blame. If it is in your world, you have created it, and it is your responsibility.

[Andras]

I don't know...I feel that perhaps this is taking the illusion and oneness a little too far. Just like the Course in Miracle, many people (and I am speaking facts) ended up in the "loonie bin" who harped the same tune. You see, there is oneness on the higher spheres, no denying that, but here and now (down on Earth) there is polarity and matter and time and space and separation. Thoughts are powerful but their power is the joint force of thoughts on the same concordance. MY universe that I created is partially mine but commingled with others. At least this is the way I see it. The "illusion" and multiple (higher realms) somehow contradict each other.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Andras

I don't know...I feel that perhaps this is taking the illusion and oneness a little too far. Just like the Course in Miracle, many people (and I am speaking facts) ended up in the "loonie bin" who harped the same tune. You see, there is oneness on the higher spheres, no denying that, but here and now (down on Earth) there is polarity and matter and time and space and separation. Thoughts are powerful but their power is the joint force of thoughts on the same concordance. MY universe that I created is partially mine but commingled with others. At least this is the way I see it. The "illusion" and multiple (higher realms) somehow contradict each other.

I am only telling you exactly what hoʻoponopono teaches. It is 100% responsibility.

Remember, Dr. Len healed an entire mental ward of criminally-insane patients. He did not say "they are responsible, too, so I don't have to take responsibility." He took full 100% responsibility, and in a few years the place was closed. No excuses, just responsibility and self-healing.

So those are the choices. Try to wrap the mind around it and say that it is crazy, or just go with it and see how it changes your world.

There are no spheres, realms, or individual people in those spheres. It is all literally one. No parts, just one.

[Andras]

No. I get you and I am also interested in the concept of Hawaiian healing. This is similar to ACIM in a way, except more practical. Except this having been around along FOR QUiTE SOMETIME [with Buddhist meditation (very similar)] - the world has not changed for the better - it seems its getting worse by the day. Ouuups, I must look inside myself and see WHY I see it that way....

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

I am only telling you exactly what hoʻoponopono teaches. It is 100% responsibility.

Remember, Dr. Len healed an entire mental ward of criminally-insane patients. He did not say "they are responsible, too, so I don't have to take responsibility." He took full 100% responsibility, and in a few years the place was closed. No excuses, just responsibility and self-healing.

So those are the choices. Try to wrap the mind around it and say that it is crazy, or just go with it and see how it changes your world.

There are no spheres, realms, or individual people in those spheres. It is all literally one. No parts, just one.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Andras

No. I get you and I am also interested in the concept of Hawaiian healing. This is similar to ACIM in a way, except more practical. Except this having been around along FOR QUiTE SOMETIME [with Buddhist meditation (very similar)] - the world has not changed for the better - it seems its getting worse by the day. Ouuups, I must look inside myself and see WHY I see it that way....

Now you're getting it. Why are you creating a world that's getting worse?

The mistake is in thinking that these things exist objectively independent of ourselves, and this is absolutely not true. If the world is getting worse, it is because you perceive that. Maybe you are pretty chaotic inside, so the world looks chaotic, too.

The thing is with ego beliefs, they are very hard to question because they are the very structure and foundation of the dream. They make your world exactly what it is for you. But then it makes you think that it has always been this way, or it is this way because of other circumstances outside of yourself.

It's like in a nightmare. If you're running away from the monster, you're just playing into the structure of the nightmare; that's supposed to happen. But if you become lucid and realize it's all a dream, then you can change the ground rules, the foundation of the nightmare itself, and now the monster doesn't matter anymore and it fades away. It's no longer needed because you moved beyond the confines of the dream reality.

So in the world, if you just play inside the box, you're going to get exactly the same things you have always gotten. The world will always be getting worse, etc. Your beliefs will continue to fulfill themselves through experience in the world. But if you break out of the box of your reality, then the whole game changes. Now the world getting worse is meaningless because the world was in you all along. Don't blame the characters in the game, blame the game itself, and realize that you can change the game altogether. You are the game.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Merrick1

In Oneness there are no others. So, we can't say: "We are responsible." But honestly, my stance is: Unless we truly live in that consciousness, this to me is but an idle talk. Few people have truly experienced Oneness, other than some fleeting states of samadhi. But many talk as if they lived it permanently. Well, it's interesting that they still enjoy talking to themselves on the forums.

Merrick

Assuming you accept that Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, or at least one teacher in all of history was actually awakened to this realization of oneness, how do you explain that they sat around talking to themselves? Where does this idea come from that the realization of oneness suddenly results in a complete loss of interest in relating to life?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Andras

I don't know...I feel that perhaps this is taking the illusion and oneness a little too far. Just like the Course in Miracle, many people (and I am speaking facts) ended up in the "loonie bin" who harped the same tune.

If it were just imaginary ideas being entertained theoretically, do you think it could have the power to disrupt mind in that way? If it were true and were seen before mind was prepared, could loony bin possibly be the result?

[JagJ]

It was not the fault of the victems. Sometime things happen beyond your control. I believe that thier is directed intention along with helopfrom one's spirit guides. Sometimes your guides and angels help you when you have not asked and there was no intention. Sometimes people do things to you without your intention and vice versa

I think that it can be a combination of things that cause outcomes and it that includes conscious intention and manifesting and more random occurances. Sometimes your intention and manifesting does not happpen. That's life. I am sure that healing is a choice and that you sent the healing where it was needed. Good for you!

[Merrick1]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Where does this idea come from that the realization of oneness suddenly results in a complete loss of interest in relating to life?

I have no such idea, Arcanum.

Merrick

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Merrick1

I have no such idea, Arcanum.

Merrick

Thanks for trying to answer. Where does this idea come from?

Well, it's interesting that they still enjoy talking to themselves on the forums.

[Andras]

So the starving refuge in Somalia does not exist? I am just making him up? or am I making up the radio reporter on NPR who talks of this while I drive to my imaginary workplace, where they pay me imaginary money?

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Andras

So the starving refuge in Somalia does not exist? I am just making him up? or am I making up the radio reporter on NPR who talks of this while I drive to my imaginary workplace, where they pay me imaginary money?

What exists is being. However mind interprets being is completely subjective.

If you go to sleep tonight and you imagine being paid $100, do you really have $100 when you wake up? No, it's completely illusory, though it seemed real at the time.

Now let's take it to another level. If you go to sleep tonight and you have a dream of someone starving, are they starving when you awaken? No, they were completely made up by the subconscious. The question is, why the heck did you have such a dream? If you're in the dream, you ask "how can we feed this starving person?" When you are awake, you realize that that person never existed. The question is not how to feed them, but how to stop creating a starving person, or how to stop suffering as a result of whatever dream your subconscious decides to bring you. This is all clear when you awaken.

I'm not saying that while you're in the dream, you won't feed the starving person. To not do so would be cruel, and you'd be rather perplexed at your behavior when you awakened. I'm not condoning ignoring the problems that the mind sees. If you didn't believe in the problems, the problems wouldn't be there in your reality.

[cacheborn]

You are forgetting one important piece of the puzzle. According to Dr Hew Len, there are 11 million bits of information entering our consciousness every second. There is no way you can distinguish and act upon them, most of what you react to is through your and everyone else's subconscious.

So, the only thing left for you is to clean. When you clean your consciousness, it gets cleaned in all of the connected beings through the super consciousness (or whatever you might want to call it.)

As for what is happening to the victim, there can be more that one cause for it. The thoughts, deeds and acts of our ancestors is one major part of it.

[Luciddd]

Isnt it a little too extreme? This is like saying I am responsible for the Irak War, how could I be? I was totally against it or the Japan eartquacke which I had no knowledge of until it was on the news.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

Isnt it a little too extreme? This is like saying I am responsible for the Irak War, how could I be? I was totally against it or the Japan eartquacke which I had no knowledge of until it was on the news.

You are right if you adopt the objective reality mindset. In a subjective reality mindset however, EVERYTHING that happens is your responsibility. You created it.

You cannot prove it, by the way. But if you want more information read Steve's articles on subjective reality.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

Isnt it a little too extreme? This is like saying I am responsible for the Irak War, how could I be? I was totally against it or the Japan eartquacke which I had no knowledge of until it was on the news.

You're looking at it objectively. Yes, the mind created all of these things and more. You are responsible for it because they are in your reality, and anything in your reality, you have created. It's your responsibility to clean.

You might not know how you created it, but you just keep cleaning. With this, and anything like this, the mind only gets in the way when you try to grasp it.

[cacheborn]

I have moved the subjective vs. objective reality discussion to a seperate thread. Please continue there.

Subjective vs. Objective reality