New to this Forum... hope it's a good one...

[SaborWolf]

I enjoy forums & sharing things with people & listening to others' opinions, if well presented.

I've come here because it's hard to find a good forum where people converse with some level of intelligence & respect. Hopefully I can find that hear & stop bouncing around from forum to forum.

About me:

I'm 37, male, separated w/ an 18 month old boy. I'm American & my ex-wife/wife i from Spain. I have been living there for almost 6-7 years.. but now I am in Beijing, China.. because there's no work/money where I was living & I'm trying my luck out here, basically.

I have seen much of the world. I have traveled to 15 countries & lived in 6 of them. I was in the U.S. Army for 6 years, in Airborne Infantry... and finishing out with the NGSF in Ocala, Florida. Also, I am a native Floridian, shocking, I know. But I have been outside of the States for most of my adult life.

So, though I love my country.. I'm not your typical American.

I'm not political & I think the way government systems, around the world, are ran is a complete & horrible joke. So, all I care about is my little piece of this world.

What else... ???? Oh, I'm agnostic, though once Christian. I would like to believe in Jesus... but I have ran out of making excuses for unanswered prayers.. and so.. I don't even want to think about anything religious.

My profession is International Marketing, though I am working on other things because I prefer to make my own... not help someone else to make theirs while I get paid crap. Professionally, my best qualities are development of new concepts & working out the details. I have worked on projects that were multi-million euro concepts & would have enjoy its profits if it weren't for the crisis, when it landed in Europe.

And.. that's good enough. Can't show all my cards on the first draw

Good to meet you guys... you'll find I'm easy to chat with... but I'm not interested in foolish insults & fighting. So, let's keep it clean guys.

Thank you.

SaborWolf

[Trover]

I have a qualifying question concerning what you mean when you say that you do not want to talk about anything religious. I too think that "religion," (when it is defined as "some arrogant man claiming to know God so well that he can tell you all about Him...") sucks, but trying to figure out what the hell is going on out there in the spiritual realm that is obviously so unavoidably real and complex that no mere mortal consciousness is ever going to understand it fully, is about as intriguing as a discussion can get! If you will allow me to get into that vein I have all kinds of things for you to think about that I think could be a part of your experience with "religious" idiots. I know a lot about religious idiots. I myself am a recovering religious idiot. I might drop a habitual religicism on you every once in a while, but I'll quickly admit that I am an idiot for doing so. I don't believe in Jesus, especially the way most people today are representing him. "God?" Well, I don't know, what is "God?" explain that one to me and we can discuss it. However, when it comes to "where did I come from," its even harder for me to believe that I created myself, so "Creator" isn't too hard for me to accept. And any serious, unbiased search of history that is simply seeking to find the truth, rather than prove its own already preconceived belief, will reveal that there was in fact an actual person who lived at the time all these stories about this guy we call "Jesus" took place. OK, a real man that we call "Jesus" actually existed. But who was he... really? If he did the things that history records that he did, and the bible makes the claims that it does about who he is, I have to consider what the bible says. That's when I came to my biggest revelation that it wasn't the God of the bible who lied to me, or the actual man we call "Jesus" who lied to me, or even the bible itself that lied to me, it was all those religious idiots who lied to me. Now its between me and the true Creator, if and whoever He is. I am like an agnostic in the sense that it can't be proven to be true, but not a true agnostic in the sense that I beleive it is nevertheless true. The way I see it, it doesn't matter what anyone says, there either is a God or there isn't. If there is He's not going to cease to exist just because I get tired of trying to understand Him and keep falling on my ass and just therefore give up. When I read the scriptures for myself, its not like the religious idiots told me. They said it was easy! All you had to do was "believe" and presto you would be "saved!" What I see is that coming to know God and living the life that He said would receive his blessing is extremely hard for a mortal to do. That makes my life, my trials, my failures, a lot more understandable. At one point a few years ago, I flipped God off, cussed Him out, told Him that if that was the way He was going to treat people who were trying to serve Him, then I wanted nothing to do with Him. I spent about a year trying to commit every "sin" I could think of. One day I found myself telling someone about the "God" that I used to believe in and the plan of "salvation" that He offered. The person I was talking to had never heard that before and almost cried when they said, "I want to believe in that!" I said, "Me too!" I guess that's why it motivated me to reply to your post, when you said, "I want to believe in Jesus..." Maybe its the truth behind what the word "Jesus" represents that you really want to believe in. Religious men have turned our understanding of "Jesus" into a farce. But if there is any truth at all behind whatever "Jesus" may represent today, then truth is eternal and will never be polluted no matter how weird men get about it. It is just my belief that if truth is out there, then if I look long and hard enough, even though I may never understand it fully, I'll have a better shot at understanding it at least a little better, than if I just write it all off as a joke.

I hope that's not religious.

[SaborWolf]

Originally Posted by Trover

I hope that's not religious.

Originally Posted by Trover

I hope that's not religious.

I wouldn't say that what you said was religious. And the only reason I call myself agonistic is because the closest to believing that there is a God is for me to believe in the Christian God. It's NOT because I grew up a Christian, either. The "Christian" ambient in my family was never a passionate chase to God, like the one I attempting for so many years.

The only reason I'm still connected to the Christian God is because of the time put in & the studying I have done. And although I do agree that the bible has its areas that seem to contradict itself; the morality & principles are a solid as a rock, in my educated opinion. The problem is that we speak of a Jesus of peace & we see a provocative God of wrath in the old testament...

...and there's many more points in the bible that make a person question God.

The area that makes me question "Him" is the area of praying & answering prayers. It says in the bible that, "if you prayer for bread, will I give you a rock ?"

From my experience, my answer is.... yes. That's exactly what I get. And I have always been the hopeful Christian where I would make excuses for "God" as to why "He" didn't answer my prayers.

And I am tired of making excuses for "Him". "He" just doesn't answer many prayers, no matter how good of a boy I had been or how much I have prayed or whatever. Thus, I have lost complete faith in prayer.. which completely unravels my faith in "God", altogether.

So my faith has been lost because I simply can't believe & trust "Him". I know about waiting & etc... but there's a point that where the rubber meets the road... and my experience with "Him" is that it never really happens. The times "it did" are moments where I got a rock in the shape of bread, but not the real bread I had prayed for.

Therefore, words can not cure what problem I have. Action is the only thing that will cure me. And not more negative action, because that just drives me further & further & further away from believing "He" even exists. That's why I said that there's no point trying to convince me different. Like I said, perhaps in another thread, is that I was a missionary who was doing evangelistic work. And I, personally, had quite a bit of success evangelizing also.

So I know all the arguments. Like your post has hints of the book, "Case for Christ" in it.

But as I said, I'm not looking for any religious discussions because what's the point ? If "God" IS the "God" I served & "He" IS who 'He" says "He" is.. than there's an enormous backlog of prayers that have been ignored, by "Him", that I'm still waiting to get answered.

If "He'll" answer my prayers... than we have something to talk about. If not, I'm continuing to walk away because I don't have even one molecule of mental energy left to continue to believe & take the beatings without getting answers to my prayers.

If this makes me too weak to be "God's child" or a bad person & I burn in hell for it... than I think that says more about "Him" than it does about me. I gave an earnest effort... and it has costed me everything... job, marriage, family, home, possessions, etc.. everything. And now I am 37 & starting from zero again, like I was 18. And that would be fine, it there was a real reason for it... but I don't believe there is.. and I'm no longer looking for it.

[Midnite]

I moved the thread to a relevant sub-forum.

[SaborWolf]

Originally Posted by Midnite

I moved the thread to a relevant sub-forum.

Great... I really didn't want to talk about religion... just introduce myself. But I understand.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by SaborWolf

I enjoy forums & sharing things with people & listening to others' opinions, if well presented.

I've come here because it's hard to find a good forum where people converse with some level of intelligence & respect. Hopefully I can find that hear & stop bouncing around from forum to forum.

About me:

I'm 37, male, separated w/ an 18 month old boy. I'm American & my ex-wife/wife i from Spain. I have been living there for almost 6-7 years.. but now I am in Beijing, China.. because there's no work/money where I was living & I'm trying my luck out here, basically.

I have seen much of the world. I have traveled to 15 countries & lived in 6 of them. I was in the U.S. Army for 6 years, in Airborne Infantry... and finishing out with the NGSF in Ocala, Florida. Also, I am a native Floridian, shocking, I know. But I have been outside of the States for most of my adult life.

So, though I love my country.. I'm not your typical American.

I'm not political & I think the way government systems, around the world, are ran is a complete & horrible joke. So, all I care about is my little piece of this world.

What else... ???? Oh, I'm agnostic, though once Christian. I would like to believe in Jesus... but I have ran out of making excuses for unanswered prayers.. and so.. I don't even want to think about anything religious.

My profession is International Marketing, though I am working on other things because I prefer to make my own... not help someone else to make theirs while I get paid crap. Professionally, my best qualities are development of new concepts & working out the details. I have worked on projects that were multi-million euro concepts & would have enjoy its profits if it weren't for the crisis, when it landed in Europe.

And.. that's good enough. Can't show all my cards on the first draw

Good to meet you guys... you'll find I'm easy to chat with... but I'm not interested in foolish insults & fighting. So, let's keep it clean guys.

Thank you.

SaborWolf

Welcome!! You're in the right place!

I'm with you about belief systems like religion and nation. I dropped both. I see a side to our country (America) that truly is about liberating people, but the other side is exploits which is inescapable in politics. We are far from the vision of the Founding Fathers who were very much like yourself, from what you've shared.

I've come to see that religions in particular are consolations and nothing more for the parishioner. It's an organized drug addiction. "Your faith has healed you" not because of the faith per se, but because your mind rested under the influence of thinking it finally got the winning lottery ticket and the release of stress is healing. It's a placebo at best and a mental poison at worst. Other than that, there's not real healing.

[ChristsLight]

Maybe the problem is not that God would not give you bread, but that you would only allow God to give you a rock because of your own limiting beliefs? Maybe you have a belief that you don't deserve to get things that you want in life, or that people just don't generally succeed, unless they work hard for it. Etc. God will only give that which you allow God to give you.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Welcome.

[Trover]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Maybe the problem is not that God would not give you bread, but that you would only allow God to give you a rock because of your own limiting beliefs? Maybe you have a belief that you don't deserve to get things that you want in life, or that people just don't generally succeed, unless they work hard for it. Etc. God will only give that which you allow God to give you.

Let's not be too hard on SaborWolf. Rather than pointing the finger for having bad "beliefs" lets examine where he got those beliefs.

I wish I had a nickle for every pure hearted truth seeker who wandered into a "Church" (The prophecied whore) and drank from that "cup of abominations" (false teachings). It makes me mad enough to want to burn them all down. But why fight fate? The True God new it was going to happen and went ahead and let it happen. He knows exactly how He will separate the sheep from the goats when its time to do so.

The real God honors the faith of men like SaborWolf. He hasn't given up on the true God, he's given up on the fake one that he was taught to serve in that whore house called Christianity. The real God never has and never will fail to honor all His promises. God WILL honor every prayer that SaborWolf ever prayed, IF it was prayed in faith (rather than merely to consume it on his own lust Js.4:3) even if he has to go through the desert first.

The True God saw his heart's intent during all those years that those bastards dressed up in whore cloths (clergy colars) were jacking with his heart strings. The true God will honor every second of his missionary efforts and every prayer he ever prayed. The one thing that will happen between now and the day it comes to pass is that he will one day realize that it wasn't the true God that let him down it was the false god and his preacher friends who set him up and dropped him.

Been there done that. I not only understand, I can still feel my own pain from every word he says about "if I'm too weak... I gave it my best effort... God just let me down... that's just the way it is..."

Whenever his journey started, SaborWolf was a sincere man looking for truth. The truth He found just happened to be packed with a bunch of lies along with it. The God he seeks is the true one. He's just in the process of shedding some junk baggage. So don't lay a "blame game" on him, just help him put the confusing puzzle back together.

And while your at it, I can use a little help to. I'm daily at the place he was at when he finally had enough. The only ONLY difference between SaborWolf and me is whether or not I make it through tomorrow. But my hope is still to hang on and not give up. I was never promised that it would be easy, nor was SaborWolf or anyone else.

That gate that we have to go through is "strait" which means difficult. It says that few will find it. I believe that SaborWolf is one of the few or it wouldn't have pissed him off so much to find out he got screwed. The real loosers out there are those in the clergy colars who not only buy that garbage, they're pedling it!

[SaborWolf]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Maybe the problem is not that God would not give you bread, but that you would only allow God to give you a rock because of your own limiting beliefs?

That was an interesting and... narrow response. Another friend of Job's, I see. Shoo, fly, shoo !!

Originally Posted by Trover

Let's not be too hard on SaborWolf. Rather than pointing the finger for having bad "beliefs" lets examine where he got those beliefs.

Thank you Trover. I liked your response. You really need to add a break in your writings though... like, every 5 lines or so, end the paragraph & make a new one. It's difficult to read without breaks in your response. I get lost in the words.

But outside of that, I like what you had to say. How I got to where I am is quite simple. As I said in another thread, I was a missionary for about 6 years & I did work as an evangelist. I thrived in my work & was giving my 100% to "God" (with whatever flaws I have, of course). But the area I got sick of getting a big fat ZERO on.. was prayer. I'd pray for one thing... and 98% I would get another.

I made excuses for "God" and thanked "Him" for what I got... but over time, I just got sick of making excuses & getting a chicken bone when I prayed for a steak. Hard times fell on me about 3-4 years ago... and I have been going through a process of losing it all... home, wife, family, job, furniture.... EVERYTHING. All I have is my health, and I question that from time to time because I get chest pains now, from time to time.

As I said before... as an ex-evangelist, I know all the responses. I used to debate with the atheists on youtube for fun. It's what I was good at. For example, @ Christslight again: that was a very stupid way to respond to me. There's being bold & direct.. but you have to balance out your words with some wisdom, bro. No one knows me enough to make blunt assumptions as stupid as that one. Hopefully, that'll be a learning step for you in your "walk with 'God'".

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Welcome.

Thank you sir.

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Welcome!! You're in the right place!

I'm with you about belief systems like religion and nation. I dropped both. I see a side to our country (America) that truly is about liberating people, but the other side is exploits which is inescapable in politics. We are far from the vision of the Founding Fathers who were very much like yourself, from what you've shared.

I've come to see that religions in particular are consolations and nothing more for the parishioner. It's an organized drug addiction. "Your faith has healed you" not because of the faith per se, but because your mind rested under the influence of thinking it finally got the winning lottery ticket and the release of stress is healing. It's a placebo at best and a mental poison at worst. Other than that, there's not real healing.

It would be nice to still believe, I won't lie. I will say that if we lived in a world where people were not as conscience of morality as we are in English speaking countries, than this world would be at a point of destroying itself.

For example, I live in Beijing, China right now. In China, the people here don't grow up with a sense of a "God" over them, watching their every move. ANd it's noticeable in the people because they will just do or say whatever. Lying & cheating is much more commonplace... and with little remorse.

So I won't bash Christianity. I draw the line there. Because it serves good purpose that you may not notice because your inside the "bubble", so to speak. Christianity has done an enormous amount of good, even if "God" doesn't really exist. And I won't mess with it because there are many, many things that are still strongly proving the existence of the Christian "God". Such as the prophecies that seem to be lining up pretty well. I'm not sure if you're studied in this area or not. But there's..... something.

So, from where I stand now... the Christian "God" may exist.. and if "He" does, than "He" has ignored the hell out of me for long enough to make me ignore "Him". The principles in the new testament are as solid as a rock, no doubt. And I live them still... in most areas.

But Christianity is based off of faith, or you don't make the cut.... and at this point... I don't make the cut anymore. The life I lived for "Christ" has left me in a million pieces, lost without my family & possessions, and more wounded than I thought I could ever be wounded. And these things are the opposite of what a life lived for "Christ" should be like. And so.... I'm out.

I can destroy my life without God. I didn't need any help there.

[Keiju]

Your signature

"An intelligent mind is nothing with an intelligent heart "


Should it not be:

"An intelligent mind is nothing without an intelligent heart " ?

[ChristsLight]

Trover,

It's not about blame. It's about responsibility. Whatever you see as happening to you in the past, you, and only you, are responsible for the beliefs you hold now, and how those shape your reality. There is no such thing as blame; blame is an ego game. But you can take responsibility here and now for the results you are getting.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by SaborWolf

That was an interesting and... narrow response. Another friend of Job's, I see. Shoo, fly, shoo !!

Are you not responsible for your own life? Which part was "narrow"?

[Trover]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Trover,

It's not about blame. It's about responsibility. Whatever you see as happening to you in the past, you, and only you, are responsible for the beliefs you hold now, and how those shape your reality. There is no such thing as blame; blame is an ego game. But you can take responsibility here and now for the results you are getting.

I appreciate your philosophy and even agree with it. The point is, who were you talking to me or SaborWolf? A good speaker has to know his audience. Truth is only as good as what you do with it.

I'm not saying that you are necessarily "holding the truth in error," but look at what happened with the truth you blasted him with. In stead of scoring a bullseye (him understanding what you were "trying" to say) he threw the arrow back at you.

Truth is, he was intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually raped by wolves in sheep's clothing. You don't begin the process of helping a rape victim by telling them it was all their fault... initially.

Sure we are all responsible for our own rapes... I shouldn't have been wearing those clothes walking by myself alone in those dark places... but I didn't know that then... but I sure as hell do now!

When a victim has suffered something that tramatic you must first nurse the wounds back to health before you can expect them to go past the fear of the pain of ever using those muscles again. Those wounds are legitimate wounds irrelevant to his responsibility in what occured in the "reasons" for why he received them.

If you want to talk about responsibility, let's you and I be responsible to articulate right words the right way, and IF we do that SW is sharp enough that when he hears the "right" words that identify the lies that he was raped with... he'll do just fine.

P.S. I don't know how you feel about this, but to find out if you and I are on the same page, do you think the True God honored SW's honesty and is therefore giving him a trial that will ultimately stretch his faith, or that "God" is punishing him for his mistakes?

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Trover

I appreciate your philosophy and even agree with it. The point is, who were you talking to me or SaborWolf? A good speaker has to know his audience. Truth is only as good as what you do with it.

I simply share when prompted by Love. What the recipient does with it is, as I've been saying, their responsibility.

Originally Posted by Trover

I'm not saying that you are necessarily "holding the truth in error," but look at what happened with the truth you blasted him with. In stead of scoring a bullseye (him understanding what you were "trying" to say) he threw the arrow back at you.

The aim of sharing is not for others to necessarily agree, understand, or accept. Truth is already within them; there is no truth to be given to another.

Originally Posted by Trover

P.S. I don't know how you feel about this, but to find out if you and I are on the same page, do you think the True God honored SW's honesty and is therefore giving him a trial that will ultimately stretch his faith, or that "God" is punishing him for his mistakes?

Tell me who is out there to honor honesty, give trials, or punish people for mistakes? I know of no one.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by SaborWolf

It would be nice to still believe, I won't lie. I will say that if we lived in a world where people were not as conscience of morality as we are in English speaking countries, than this world would be at a point of destroying itself.

For example, I live in Beijing, China right now. In China, the people here don't grow up with a sense of a "God" over them, watching their every move. ANd it's noticeable in the people because they will just do or say whatever. Lying & cheating is much more commonplace... and with little remorse.

So I won't bash Christianity. I draw the line there. Because it serves good purpose that you may not notice because your inside the "bubble", so to speak. Christianity has done an enormous amount of good, even if "God" doesn't really exist. And I won't mess with it because there are many, many things that are still strongly proving the existence of the Christian "God". Such as the prophecies that seem to be lining up pretty well. I'm not sure if you're studied in this area or not. But there's..... something.

So, from where I stand now... the Christian "God" may exist.. and if "He" does, than "He" has ignored the hell out of me for long enough to make me ignore "Him". The principles in the new testament are as solid as a rock, no doubt. And I live them still... in most areas.

But Christianity is based off of faith, or you don't make the cut.... and at this point... I don't make the cut anymore. The life I lived for "Christ" has left me in a million pieces, lost without my family & possessions, and more wounded than I thought I could ever be wounded. And these things are the opposite of what a life lived for "Christ" should be like. And so.... I'm out.

I can destroy my life without God. I didn't need any help there.

Just an observation if you will allow me....you see something good in Christianity yet something went wrong with it in your life. There's a half-truth, half-lie in Christianity. The hard part is figuring out which is which....which part does Christianity get and which doesn't it get.

The part that it doesn't get is the part that does damage to people. The fixed dogma and repetition of it is what hurts people. But how can Christianity survive if people outgrow the need for it. Christianity can be a stopping point along the journey to figuring life out, but to make it the destination means living the rest of one's life in a belief system, never coming to see a deeper meaning. The repetition of beliefs vs. a exploration for truth EVEN IF THAT EXPLORATION TAKES ONE PAST CHRISTIANITY...that repetition creates a habit so strong in favor of Christianity that mentally the person is trapped and too scared to think that maybe there isn't this entity called God or Satan or heaven or hell.

What did the world do before Christianity? How did it make it this far? Millions of years without it and thousands with it. Something is missing. Your real life experiences are screaming at you that somethingis missing in it, but your mental habits aren't letting it go completely. Does that sound correct?

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Trover

I have a qualifying question concerning what you mean when you say that you do not want to talk about anything religious. I too think that "religion," (when it is defined as "some arrogant man claiming to know God so well that he can tell you all about Him...") sucks, but trying to figure out what the hell is going on out there in the spiritual realm that is obviously so unavoidably real and complex that no mere mortal consciousness is ever going to understand it fully, is about as intriguing as a discussion can get!

Oh you are so spot on right there. Thanx for expressing those thoughts.

Originally Posted by Trover

If you will allow me to get into that vein I have all kinds of things for you to think about that I think could be a part of your experience with "religious" idiots. I know a lot about religious idiots. I myself am a recovering religious idiot. I might drop a habitual religicism on you every once in a while, but I'll quickly admit that I am an idiot for doing so. I don't believe in Jesus, especially the way most people today are representing him.

Bravo to all that.

Originally Posted by Trover

"God?" Well, I don't know, what is "God?" explain that one to me and we can discuss it.

I have an offer for you (provided your interested) in left field info, that you will find quite refreshing, if it doesn't blow your sox off first.

Originally Posted by Trover

However, when it comes to "where did I come from," its even harder for me to believe that I created myself, so "Creator" isn't too hard for me to accept. And any serious, unbiased search of history that is simply seeking to find the truth, rather than prove its own already preconceived belief, will reveal that there was in fact an actual person who lived at the time all these stories about this guy we call "Jesus" took place. OK, a real man that we call "Jesus" actually existed. But who was he... really?

Well firstly his name wasn't Jesus, but Yahshua. Why the name change? The answer, if you don't know already, will amaze, and has a great deal to do with that other great controversy about his 'God' nature.

Originally Posted by Trover

If he did the things that history records that he did, and the bible makes the claims that it does about who he is, I have to consider what the bible says. That's when I came to my biggest revelation that it wasn't the God of the bible who lied to me, or the actual man we call "Jesus" who lied to me, or even the bible itself that lied to me, it was all those religious idiots who lied to me. Now its between me and the true Creator, if and whoever He is. I am like an agnostic in the sense that it can't be proven to be true, but not a true agnostic in the sense that I beleive it is nevertheless true. The way I see it, it doesn't matter what anyone says, there either is a God or there isn't. If there is He's not going to cease to exist just because I get tired of trying to understand Him and keep falling on my ass and just therefore give up. When I read the scriptures for myself, its not like the religious idiots told me. They said it was easy! All you had to do was "believe" and presto you would be "saved!" What I see is that coming to know God and living the life that He said would receive his blessing is extremely hard for a mortal to do. That makes my life, my trials, my failures, a lot more understandable. At one point a few years ago, I flipped God off, cussed Him out, told Him that if that was the way He was going to treat people who were trying to serve Him, then I wanted nothing to do with Him. I spent about a year trying to commit every "sin" I could think of.

Please don't tell the pope I said this, but that was a great cleansing right there into which perhaps every young man should immerse himself.

Originally Posted by Trover

One day I found myself telling someone about the "God" that I used to believe in and the plan of "salvation" that He offered. The person I was talking to had never heard that before and almost cried when they said, "I want to believe in that!" I said, "Me too!" I guess that's why it motivated me to reply to your post, when you said, "I want to believe in Jesus..." Maybe its the truth behind what the word "Jesus" represents that you really want to believe in. Religious men have turned our understanding of "Jesus" into a farce.

I'm a-hearin' yo brother! I'm a-likin it muchly. And I'm a-wishin they sang them hymnals when I was in church.

Originally Posted by Trover

But if there is any truth at all behind whatever "Jesus" may represent today, then truth is eternal and will never be polluted no matter how weird men get about it. It is just my belief that if truth is out there, then if I look long and hard enough, even though I may never understand it fully, I'll have a better shot at understanding it at least a little better, than if I just write it all off as a joke.

The best recipe for me in such a search - Commit to accept the truth when it comes to you even if it comes from the mouth of Satan, sounds like evil itself and hurts like hell. If it's the truth, then you owe it to yourself to acknowledge, accept, adopt, assimilate for all yuour worth.

This is not quite as easy as it sounds, but infinitely more rewarding.


Welcome to the forum both Saborwolf and Trover, please stay long and prosper abundantly, I ask. (and I'm not even trekkie)

[SaborWolf]

Originally Posted by Trover

I'm not saying that you are necessarily "holding the truth in error," but look at what happened with the truth you blasted him with. In stead of scoring a bullseye (him understanding what you were "trying" to say) he threw the arrow back at you.

Truth is, he was intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually raped by wolves in sheep's clothing. You don't begin the process of helping a rape victim by telling them it was all their fault... initially...

Yes, I will throw the arrows back at people who try to shoot me with comments with no real foundation. No one in here knows my story well enough to make blunt comments about my faith or situation, just yet. So, I will be a bit coy when it comes to situations like that.

And yes, I have been ripped down in a very brutal way. One of my flaws is what's probably saving my life right now, and that is that I'm too arrogant to take my own life.... lol, So, my pride is saving me, in some ways

Originally Posted by Trover

P.S. I don't know how you feel about this, but to find out if you and I are on the same page, do you think the True God honored SW's honesty and is therefore giving him a trial that will ultimately stretch his faith, or that "God" is punishing him for his mistakes?

The day I started to follow "Jesus" was the day I made "Him" one deal... that "He" would always be real with me & to me.... and I would always be real with "Him". Because I am a guy who lives in brutal reality. And that attitude is what was probably the main element about me that gave me the passion I had, in my faith.

But when the day came when I didn't see the "realness" in my faith.. and all I saw was a long, long road of excuses for why I'm never heard by "Him" when it came to personal issues... than that's the day when my faith crashed.

And I tried to fight it. But again, I am a brutal realist... which means I'm not very good at faking my faith, if indeed I discover I don't have it anymore.

It just is what it is.

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Just an observation if you will allow me....you see something good in Christianity yet something went wrong with it in your life. There's a half-truth, half-lie in Christianity. The hard part is figuring out which is which....which part does Christianity get and which doesn't it get.

The part that it doesn't get is the part that does damage to people. The fixed dogma and repetition of it is what hurts people. But how can Christianity survive if people outgrow the need for it. Christianity can be a stopping point along the journey to figuring life out, but to make it the destination means living the rest of one's life in a belief system, never coming to see a deeper meaning. The repetition of beliefs vs. a exploration for truth EVEN IF THAT EXPLORATION TAKES ONE PAST CHRISTIANITY...that repetition creates a habit so strong in favor of Christianity that mentally the person is trapped and too scared to think that maybe there isn't this entity called God or Satan or heaven or hell.

What did the world do before Christianity? How did it make it this far? Millions of years without it and thousands with it. Something is missing. Your real life experiences are screaming at you that somethingis missing in it, but your mental habits aren't letting it go completely. Does that sound correct?

Yes. And you said it well when you said that my real life experiences are SCREAMING at me. They are indeed. I've lost over 30 pounds from the stress & worry I have been through these past few months, alone. And... I wasn't overweight before that.

Every man & woman has their limits. I sincerely believe that. And if "God" doesn't jump in to pick up the slack from the pressure & pain of a situation... than any person will eventually snap, if pushed far enough.

Thus... I've snapped & I'm not apologizing to anyone for it. I feel proud that I've carried it as far as I have without any silent "God" that is to theoretically save me if I pray to "Him" for help.

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Welcome to the forum both Saborwolf and Trover, please stay long and prosper abundantly, I ask. (and I'm not even trekkie)

Thank you sir. I look forward to being here. I didn't know my first conversation was going to be about "God". But one can't always pick all their topics, I guess

[SaborWolf]

Originally Posted by Keiju

Your signature

"An intelligent mind is nothing with an intelligent heart "


Should it not be:

"An intelligent mind is nothing without an intelligent heart " ?

Thank you sir. It has been changed.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by SaborWolf

Thank you sir. I look forward to being here. I didn't know my first conversation was going to be about "God". But one can't always pick all their topics, I guess

We all gotta start somewhere, I guess. I really like your signature BTW, now!

Cheers

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by SaborWolf

Yes. And you said it well when you said that my real life experiences are SCREAMING at me. They are indeed. I've lost over 30 pounds from the stress & worry I have been through these past few months, alone. And... I wasn't overweight before that.

Every man & woman has their limits. I sincerely believe that. And if "God" doesn't jump in to pick up the slack from the pressure & pain of a situation... than any person will eventually snap, if pushed far enough.

Thus... I've snapped & I'm not apologizing to anyone for it. I feel proud that I've carried it as far as I have without any silent "God" that is to theoretically save me if I pray to "Him" for help.

If I was "God" and had only one commandment to make, it would be this "THOU SHALT NEVER EVER EVER EVER PRACTICE BELIEFS!!"

The punishment for believers is the hell that those habitual beliefs cause in their lives, as you have shared with us.

The reward for those that test beliefs and evolve in their understanding is a lifelong joy of discovery of this magnificent Garden of Eden called Planet Earth.

Practicing the dogma screwed with your head.

I do appreciate your military service, and if you reflect on it, you may also have see how much of the training is the same...repetition of the military dogma to mechanize your behavior so that you will kill when ordered to do so or when you see your target.

I was watching a show a couple years ago, saying that in WWI, that perhaps maybe only 25% of the soldiers were actually aiming at the enemy and the rest were pretending to. In WWII they got the number up to 50%. I may have the numbers wrong, but the point is that the military wanted better combat effectiveness so it found ways to better condition the soldier to be more willing to kill. The technique is this repetition, so that whether you really want to kill or not, you kill or at least try to.

If something in our nature is unwilling to kill other humans, then let that be a flag, just like something is flagging you about Christianity.

Then another show I was watching showed an incident where the enemy was shot I'm sure with the intent to kill him, but he was wounded, in terrible agony, and our guys now went over to do whatever they could to save him. Another time I was in a museum looking at pictures showing a similar story, wondering how we can want to kill then want to save in the blink of an eye.

I see in this paradox a story of conditionings, that enabled men to kill men, then a waking up from those conditionings, that enabled the same men to love men. That love was shown by the urgency to save the enemy's life even though those words would never come out of the mouth. Love for humanity was shown through actions...no words required.

"THOU SHALT NOT EVER CONDITION YOURSELF AGAINST YOUR INNATE NATURE" unless you want to create your own mental illness.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by SaborWolf

Yes, I will throw the arrows back at people who try to shoot me with comments with no real foundation. No one in here knows my story well enough to make blunt comments about my faith or situation, just yet. So, I will be a bit coy when it comes to situations like that.

Perhaps you would see it to have a foundation if you did not dismiss it out of hand.

I've been more or less where you are, so I know what you're talking about in this thread. I'm trying to point out to you a new possibility that might have you feeling better about your life, and being more inspired. It's a frightening possibility, yes, but one worth considering, I think.

So, what would happen, hypothetically, if you shifted the responsibility from being placed on God, to being placed on yourself? I'm not saying that this has to happen, but just trying to get you to think about it. What would that feel like?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Perhaps you would see it to have a foundation if you did not dismiss it out of hand.

I've been more or less where you are, so I know what you're talking about in this thread. I'm trying to point out to you a new possibility that might have you feeling better about your life, and being more inspired. It's a frightening possibility, yes, but one worth considering, I think.

So, what would happen, hypothetically, if you shifted the responsibility from being placed on God, to being placed on yourself? I'm not saying that this has to happen, but just trying to get you to think about it. What would that feel like?

Well said!

One way I like to say the same thing is like this. Keep all the beliefs AND also take responsibility as it's obvious there are things we screw up in life that we can learn from. So go to work on getting that awareness and then later on reflect on what value the beliefs really have in your life about God.

Everyone knows inside themselves that waiting for a miracle is about as worthwhile as playing the Powerball lottery. Ok, buy the lottery tickets AND get about cleaning up your life by growing your intelligence.

No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.
Albert Einstein

Just grow and the beliefs will take care of themselves...

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Everyone knows inside themselves that waiting for a miracle is about as worthwhile as playing the Powerball lottery. Ok, buy the lottery tickets AND get about cleaning up your life by growing your intelligence.

Agreed. Miracles don't come from some all-powerful being. When we believe this, then that being could be holding out on us, not giving us the miracles we want. the source of miracles is within Love consciousness—within ourselves.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Agreed. Miracles don't come from some all-powerful being. When we believe this, then that being could be holding out on us, not giving us the miracles we want. the source of miracles is within Love consciousness—within ourselves.

To me, the only miracle in life is going from darkness to light, from unconsciousness to consciousness, from ignorance to intelligence, and so on.

The miracle is to rediscover the heart and no longer live from logic. It seems like a miracle because the same person, having shifted from logic to love, isn't recognizable anymore. Who used to be greedy is now a gift.

That's the only miracle I know of.

[SaborWolf]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

So, what would happen, hypothetically, if you shifted the responsibility from being placed on God, to being placed on yourself? I'm not saying that this has to happen, but just trying to get you to think about it. What would that feel like?

I wish this thread didn't get moved to the "Spiritual" section. This was my intro thread, nothing more. And this conversation will only awaken a rage in me that I like to keep under-control. But okay.... here goes...

I know where my mistakes are at. I haven't aired them yet... but yes, I know that I have messed up & I have my hand in the fire, on some of the failures I've been experiencing these past few years.

And so why do I blame "God" ??

...because "He's" suppose to be in control.

Why is it that we always say that "God" is in control.. except when things go bad. In other words... "He" only accepts responsibility of things when they are good ? If it's not good, than we can't look to "Him" for any fault ?? That's a pretty convenient set up. I like that. I'll try that at work & see how far that takes me.

If it's good.. I'm your man... if not... hey... it's your fault. What ?? ...me, in control ?? ...what are you talking about ?? That was your fault !!!

Guess that's why they call "Him" "God".... because "He's" the only one that can do that.

Tell me... have to ever created something for your pleasure ? Was/Is your pleasure based on watching the constant torment that creation go through hell? In other words... do you like to see your creations wallow in torture ?

It's much like buying a dog & letting the kids constantly light firecrackers under it while it sleeps & while it's awake.... and yet, you never really tell the kids to stop & go away. The dog knows you can have the kids stop... but you do nothing.

Because if there is a "God"; that's how I see "Him". "He" does nothing when I pray for my problems.

The Christian "God" is suppose to be a savior, no ? And I know... "He" saves us after we die here on earth. Okay... whatever happened to "let Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" ?? So heaven has the same sh.t in store for me, if I make it. Wow... hell must really suck. Because "He" doesn't save here on earth... and if & when "He" does, it's a very selected few.

Like... a lot more selected than 99% of "Christians" realize. And if that's the case... than I'm already headed to hell, before I do anything. Because somehow I didn't make the cut. Somehow I am not good enough for "Him" to answer my GD prayers.

Because "He" hasn't given attention to my prayers & responded. Which really throws out very popular parts of the Sermon on the Mount that was one of the things that Jesus was suppose to do to justify "Him", as "Lord & Savior".

And if one part of the bible doesn't work on this issue, alone... than the whole thing doesn't work. I believe the principles are still solid, actually. But a "God" that saves ?? Yeah ??? When ??? Oh, that's right... after we die. Perfect timing. This way, those who haven't just completely melted down in life from all the constant BS we get sent our way, make it into heaven!!

Great plan. No wonder so few will make it. All you need is to do is to love Jesus & have Prozac surgically implanted in your brain to make it through life & into heaven.

So, I take my blame... but where is "He" when I called on "Him" for help.. for YEARS ?? I can tell ya... "HE" was watching my life fall apart.

And like I said.. I could have ruined my own life, without "His" help.

Originally Posted by RonSouther

....Everyone knows inside themselves that waiting for a miracle is about as worthwhile as playing the Powerball lottery. Ok, buy the lottery tickets AND get about cleaning up your life by growing your intelligence.

Just grow and the beliefs will take care of themselves...

The real miracle is that if "God" does exist... that "He" answers your prayers when you have needs of rescue & help. Because the only thing I see.. is a "God" that created us for "His" pleasure... and "His" pleasure is to see us in pain. If it were not so, than our reality would be different & people wouldn't be born while "He" knows that they're going to hell... all because we didn't get "His" little secret code on how to get into heaven.

The things & people I love... I want them around me. And I'm nothing close to a "God". But the Christian "God" says that very few will make it.

Again.. another great plan. Sounds like true love to me too.

I know my mistakes. And I also know that I could have responded differently to my crisis if I wasn't constantly praying, hoping, & expecting for some "God" to come in & do what I couldn't do. Because I couldn't hold the weight of my situation for very long... and apparently neither could.... "God".

[ChristsLight]

Hey hey SaborWolf, it's only a question. No need to feel threatened over a question.

Originally Posted by SaborWolf

And so why do I blame "God" ??

...because "He's" suppose to be in control.

We're just talking about you now. I haven't mentioned at all that God's supposed to be in control. I don't think that at all, but we can question those beliefs another time if you're up to it.

[SaborWolf]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Hey hey SaborWolf, it's only a question. No need to feel threatened over a question.

We're just talking about you now. I haven't mentioned at all that God's supposed to be in control. I don't think that at all, but we can question those beliefs another time if you're up to it.

Quite right. I wasn't trying to attack you. But I know where these conversations go because I used to lead people down the same paths, when I would debate with them.

And telling me that "I didn't want things to succeed" wasn't exactly a good start with me. I fought for my family so hard that my fight made the front page of the newspaper, earlier this year. I was next to Gaddafi, strangely enough. And what made the paper was only a drop in the ocean to the big picture.

So anytime I get into a conversation about my situation with my Christian friends, I always ask them... okay.. Where was "God" ? Where was the Christian community, even ?

The idea of Christianity is perfect... the reality is... let's just say it's not only imperfect, it's way worse than imperfect. And it disgusted me when I worked in missions ministry, too.

And that's why I didn't want to enter any religious discussions that are connected to me. I have checked out of that game when my wife left me for reasons so feeble, that even her family doesn't understand why ? And neither do I ? We had always had such a strong marriage that other people admired our marriage.

Now I bet they're thinking something different, for sure.

I've never suffered what Job suffered in the bible. And many of my Christian friends like to compare his story with mine when they're trying to encourage me. Or I'll hear David's sorry even... as if I don't know the story.

But it doesn't work... because why do I have to constantly compare myself to the worst case scenario so that I can feel better about myself & situation ?

How is that suppose to make me feel better, seriously ?

And so.. there are many points that get my blood boiling. But basically, I gave my God, my marriage, & my family my ALL... and my return on that investment was hell on earth. And every part of that sentence where you see the word "My" is where I was taking my responsibility extremely serious & worked very hard to succeed.

So, one might understand why a discussion about religion or Christianity isn't exactly a good discussion from me to get into, just yet. Maybe one day. Because it wouldn't be a pleasant discussion when I start hearing those weak, cookie cutted, cliché remarks from the Christian community.

I know you mean well.. and you probably want to see me "saved". But if "God" doesn't want to OR can't do it... than I guess my case is not one that anyone should mess with.

Forgive me if my tone seems too aggressive. I don't mean to attack or offend.

[ChristsLight]

I didn't say you didn't want to succeed. i said you didn't believe that you could. There's a huge difference, and this difference is the key to creating success.

I don't know if you labeled me as Christian, but I am not.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by SaborWolf

The idea of Christianity is perfect... the reality is... let's just say it's not only imperfect, it's way worse than imperfect. And it disgusted me when I worked in missions ministry, too.
.

And in there lies a paradox. To the mind, Christianity makes sense, PERFECT sense. That's all theologies are, logic that makes sense about "God". Ideologies are logical ideas about life.

And all paradoxes are in the mind, not in real life. Life is just life, "life" isn't confused. The mind is confused with what it sees as a contradiction.

And the mind thinks that "logic" is true, otherwise it wouldn't act out these beliefs. Theologies MUST be tightly logical, not truthful, to be accepted by the masses. Theologies are half-truths...truthful enough to not be rejected by the average intelligence of the people, and the rest of it just needs to be really logical to be accepted.

But why is the mind coming up with all this logic? Because it does NOT know the truth. There's a paradox in here. The mind only thinks about what it doesn't know. The thoughts it comes up with will be logical...they will fit the structure of how the mind processes stuff and nothing more.

Logic is a guess, not a truth but we are trained LIVE beliefs, and not TEST beliefs then looking for the results, and learning from their failures.

Logic and Truth are not the same at all. Truth "is" and logic is an educated guess about what "is".

Logic is only as truthful as the depth of intelligence behind the logic. The logical idea is simply the combination of what I can "see" (or think I can see) below the surface intelligently in combination with what my 5 senses can see on the surface, becoming the next belief I have about what I still don't understand about the world around me and in me.

If I can see ALL the Truth I don't need any logic (impossible, just hypothetically), I will simply spontaneously do the correct thing. For example, if I'm in a room and want to leave, I don't logically think about how to leave the room...I simply walk out the door.

Without seeing any truth at all, logic is all I have. Just think about "intelligence" as what you know, and "logic" is the mind's best attempt to make an educated guess at what you don't know. The less I know, the more I'm guessing, and the more mistakes I will make. So let's say I'm in an unfamiliar building (hospitals are great for being mazes), I have to do a lot of logical guesses trying to find my way around.

Or here's a better analogy that just came to mind. If I'm driving across town to a place I know, I don't even think about how to get there. If I've never ever been to this town, never seen a map, then logically guessing is all I have and it's obvious that guessing won't get me very far. It will be a lot of trial and error, trying to find my destination. The more experience I have in that town, the less guessing I have to do. And when I do find it, I can look back at how well I guessed and how I could've guessed better in the future, but those guesses (beliefs) are now dropped because I don't need them. Now I know, so why guess, why believe?

Back to Christianity or any theology, most of it is a guess that we "practice" as though it's truth. That practicing is repetition, which in turns turns the beliefs into habits...habits that take on a life of their own inside us, making them feel real. It's like habitually believing that our friend lives on the east side of town and then being upset when he never is there...well, he doesn't live there! Habitual beliefs ignore the truth, don't look for the truth, because they FEEL like truth.

Lies are logic, too! The better the logic in the lie, the more believable it is! The mind isn't looking for a match between real life and what is being said, per se, because the lie is about something unseen in that moment.

The mind is looking at the content of the lie to see if it makes sense, but the lie is based upon a deception that can't be seen in that moment. A lie promises something that we've known before with no intent to deliver. Lies that don't make sense are rejected or suspected.

Back to intelligence, the deep your understanding of life and the more experiences that you have had, the harder it is for the liar to construct something that makes sense to you.

The people that are the least wise are the ones with the most beliefs and they can be played left and right. The most intelligent are the hardest to fool so they are left alone.

So look at where Christianity does most of it's work. In poor undeveloped areas of the world. It brings the food and clothing, builds the shelters....then with those needs met, starts teaching the beliefs to people that don't know any better. Christianity doesn't appeal to the most intelligent. Bhuddism attracts a much more intelligent crowd, but still that hasn't proved to be THE religion.

The real religion is simply the inner journey of eliminating the false in your life. All beliefs are the "false". To eliminate a belief requires an increase in intelligence. The real religion then is a process of opening up our eyes and hears (ah....like Jesus said!!), not repeating and repeating old tired beliefs that rot in our minds.

That repetition is the ONLY reason why Christianity made it this far and is THE reason why something that makes sense in reality isn't working at all exception to do harm. Making beliefs into a habit is to keep yourself stuck in a habit and not growing to deeper levels of understanding life.

Your religious practicing was simply practicing a lie and then being upset that the lie didn't produce the fruit that the lie said would be there. There's no need to for anyone to be upset with God.

Be upset with one's ignorance of how this mind works, grieve what life was lost in false beliefs as you reflect, then move on with your eyes and ears opened. The institution got it's tentacles into your mind, and the collapse of your beliefs got you out as you know longer could live so destructively (you took responsibility for you). Now you can reflect back and reconcile what the hell happened and grow your intelligence, seeing that your surrounded by institutions trying to appeal to your logic and make you a believer in their cause.