The Esoteric Jesus and Free Will

[Andras]

I like some feedback on quotes from Jesus that would contradict his ideas on "free will". I know that the Bible and later discovered gospels are a storehouse of quotes misinterpreted by the mainstream and direct proofs of Jesus' esoteric knowledge;
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."

"When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

...further; the mustard seed comment on the universe, his baptism by a lesser man to fulfill the law of guru/master concept. and countless more. [I am no bible scholar] so I will be brief here. More to be found here...
How about the esoteric Jesus on free will? Do you know the bible well? Chime in.

[zeitgeist]

Doesn't he just describe our journey towards wholeness?

[Andras]

...yes but my question addresses the philosophical question of the existence of free will versus "all is illusion". I am in the middle, I believe in the idea of "illusion", yet I maintain the existence of "free will" to a certain extent.

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

Doesn't he just describe our journey towards wholeness?

[TellTheTruth]

I'm not sure I understand your question but I feel
inspired to attempt an answer.

I think one of Jesus' messages is that the kingdom of God
is all around us. We can live in *this* world, or we can live
in God's world. To live in God's world, because he is perfect
and without sin then we need to be cleansed and without
sin. That is why the atoning sacrifice of Jesus was required
for us to return to God, as we are all sinner's by nature.

(And I think one of the most convincing arguments for the
existence of God is that man is the only creature on earth
that sins constantly by nature. So if God loves us why would
he do that? Because we cannot know the thrill of victory
without also knowing the agony of defeat - Christ's mission
was focused on reaching out to the defeated.)

Free will means that we have choice. We can follow God's
way and enjoy the peace and revelation that comes with
that - or we can choose the path of sin which will inevitably
lead us down a path of misery and self-destruction.

Very akin to being a parent of children, at some point we
have to allow them to make their own choices and to
exercise free will (and to inevitably fail, miserably). Often
times they will make choices counter to our wisdom and
experience, following the illusion of some worldly gain -
let's say a get rich quick scheme.

Of course the idea of getting rich quick is an illusion, made
tempting because most of us think money is the way to
happiness. However our child loses their money and must
then suffer the consequences, which hopefully they learn
from.

The illusion, to me, is the pretense that we are not children
of God, that we are limited, that we find our happiness in
the pursuit of worldly things, that we are not eternal beings
living in a mortal body. The Matrix is a movie that
represents this internal human conflict. Until one separates
from the worldly they will live in the illusion that's all there
is. Life truly changes when you embrace an eternal perspective
on life.

You have free will - you have the choice to choose between
the blue pill or the red pill. Choose wisely. :-)

All the best to you -

Originally Posted by Andras

...yes but my question addresses the philosophical question of the existence of free will versus "all is illusion". I am in the middle, I believe in the idea of "illusion", yet I maintain the existence of "free will" to a certain extent.

[Andras]

...yes there are "two worlds", the one of REAL and the one we live in the illusionary, the shadow, where polarity exists; of dark versus light, good versus bad and male versus female. The laws of nature (karma etc) are just as fake as the change of the weather in the ultimate sense when we are out of this world, so to speak.
There is no time or space in the far reaches of the spirit world.
Yet, it is stupid to ignore good or bad while we are here or you might end up behind bars. You cannot ignore something "bad" and let it go. Here in the illusion we must act and move forward or back. Here we have a "free will", to recycle without learning a thing or move up a notch. Learning=action, forgiveness=action, love=action, charity=action. So there lies the paradox of "real" and "illusion", the temporal or the infinite. I am not sure if the Gnostic scriptures or even the Bible has any trace of these ideas.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Andras

I like some feedback on quotes from Jesus that would contradict his ideas on "free will". I know that the Bible and later discovered gospels are a storehouse of quotes misinterpreted by the mainstream and direct proofs of Jesus' esoteric knowledge;
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."

"When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

...further; the mustard seed comment on the universe, his baptism by a lesser man to fulfill the law of guru/master concept. and countless more. [I am no bible scholar] so I will be brief here. More to be found here...
How about the esoteric Jesus on free will? Do you know the bible well? Chime in.

I'm assuming you see the implication of free will in these quotes? To say, 'if you do this', or, 'when you do that', doesn't say anything about free will. "Of myself, I can do nothing" might, though.

[Andras]

"When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."
This quote is especially mighty powerful and alludes that realizing "oneness" is a choice, either you accept it or not. Your beliefs and realization of something allows that thing to become you. (as a two way street)
I am an esoteric Jesus buff (from my christian upbringing) via the proxy of my ex-teacher who also used Jesus parables as point to the esoteric past and to show the diversion of modern christian dogma from the Gnostic (and true) path.

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I'm assuming you see the implication of free will in these quotes? To say, 'if you do this', or, 'when you do that', doesn't say anything about free will. "Of myself, I can do nothing" might, though.

[RonSouther]

This is an excellent read on the gnostic Gospel of Thomas....free here... Relationships ? Depths ? Disappeared? ? Osho Online Library

Or buy cheap here...
Half.com: , The Mustard Seed: Commentaries on the Fifth Gospel of Saint Thomas by Osho (1994, Paperback, Illustrated): Commentaries on the Fifth Gospel of Saint Thomas(9781852304980): : Books

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Andras

"When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."
This quote is especially mighty powerful and alludes that realizing "oneness" is a choice, either you accept it or not. Your beliefs and realization of something allows that thing to become you. (as a two way street)
I am an esoteric Jesus buff (from my christian upbringing) via the proxy of my ex-teacher who also used Jesus parables as point to the esoteric past and to show the diversion of modern christian dogma from the Gnostic (and true) path.

Seems to me if one is exploring the subtleties of those writings, one should be especially careful with allusions.

[Andras]

...of course, I am not even sure if/how the quote is attributed to Jesus, I know that while Jesus was "around" so to speak, the Essenes were there and they were in the KNOW. They were healers and quite spiritually "connected". Some say Jesus was part of the essenes himself. I am not sure. I am more of a Kabbalist now and time permitting I like to read up on these things because they are quite enlightening if you read the right book, of course.

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Seems to me if one is exploring the subtleties of those writings, one should be especially careful with allusions.