The Philosophy of Free Will

[ChristsLight]

I'm taking a class on Augustine. I have to write a paper discussing an aspect of Augustine's philosophy.

I decided to critique his philosophy on free will. Of course, Augustine being Catholic, he believes completely in free will and humans as free agents. Also, this is one of the major powers of a human being.

Apparently I have to pair him with another philosopher who would disagree with him. So I'm trying to find a philosopher who disagrees with Augustine on the issue of free will. Especially a philosopher who says that free will is only the appearance of freedom.

It would be useful if I could find these works online or in an online library such as Questia.

I'm coming up blank right now, so any help is appreciated.

[Reefs]

Try award winning Schopenhauer. Or Calvin!

[ChristsLight]

Thanks reefs. Schopenhauer is perfect. Thank you. Now hopefully I can find his works online, especially The World as Will and Representation.

[RonSouther]

Broken record time....please take a chance....go to Explore the Osho Online Library and seach "augustine". I've read a ton on the guy....really good stuff. St. Augustine got this stuff except he wasn't willing to walk away from the establishment (if I remember right). And search "free will".

You'll blow them away dude...

[ChristsLight]

Thanks Ron. I might use it for supplemental information, but Osho's not exactly a philosopher.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Thanks Ron. I might use it for supplemental information, but Osho's not exactly a philosopher.

Good deal....and you're right! He isn't one!

I had to coin my own word for it: I call it philosia, as against philosophy, because philosophy means to think, and philosia means the love of seeing. Philosophy means the love of thinking – but what can you think? Just to avoid the danger of people going beyond mind, and becoming dangerous to the society, a substitute, a toy has been created. That is philosophy. No philosopher comes to experience anything. No philosopher becomes enlightened or awakened; he remains on the same ground as you are, as unconscious as you are. (Book: Beyond Psychology)

That's why I say you will blow them away with something that is beyond mental.

[ChristsLight]

That's all fine, but it is a philosophy class. That would be like using philosophy in a physics class. Sure it is good in its own field, but not in a class that calls for something else.

In this paper, it calls for pairing Augustine against another philosopher in a debate. Since Osho isn't a philosopher, it wouldn't work.

But I could use some of his ideas to formulate the debates, so I appreciate the resource.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

That's all fine, but it is a philosophy class. That would be like using philosophy in a physics class. Sure it is good in its own field, but not in a class that calls for something else.

In this paper, it calls for pairing Augustine against another philosopher in a debate. Since Osho isn't a philosopher, it wouldn't work.

But I could use some of his ideas to formulate the debates, so I appreciate the resource.

As a watcher, can you see that the education system isn't about truth but about human will? Philosophy isn't truth yet it must be studied and passed to make the grade and upgrade your qualifications in the economic system.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Thanks reefs. Schopenhauer is perfect. Thank you. Now hopefully I can find his works online, especially The World as Will and Representation.

Actually you only have to read "On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason". That's his award winning thesis about free will. Don't let the title scare you, it's really easy to read.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

As a watcher, can you see that the education system isn't about truth but about human will? Philosophy isn't truth yet it must be studied and passed to make the grade and upgrade your qualifications in the economic system.

I do see that. Several times that has nearly driven me to drop out, because I see no point to it. All we can do as philosophy majors is to spout off the philosophies of historical philosophers, and the great majority of them have no idea what they're talking about.

Philosophy is subjective, despite the claims to the contrary of philosophers. Any argument, you can argue for or against and it can be just as valid.

Really the only reason I am still here is because we have somewhere to live until we have to move next year. But it is difficult to drum up the motivation to write meaningless summaries of philosophers.

Hopefully I can have fun with this paper though.

The professor replied, and said he doesn't think the debate would be worth it because the philosophies are so opposite. But I am still doing it.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Reefs

Actually you only have to read "On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason". That's his award winning thesis about free will. Don't let the title scare you, it's really easy to read.

Perfect. Thanks.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

I do see that. Several times that has nearly driven me to drop out, because I see no point to it. All we can do as philosophy majors is to spout off the philosophies of historical philosophers, and the great majority of them have no idea what they're talking about.

Philosophy is subjective, despite the claims to the contrary of philosophers. Any argument, you can argue for or against and it can be just as valid.


The professor replied, and said he doesn't think the debate would be worth it because the philosophies are so opposite. But I am still doing it.

Ok, this is the SECOND Osho synchronicity moment...I said last week that you have a technique with people that Osho uses....here's the second common thread....

Osho knew from childhood that his life would be about exposing the lie that society is. In college, he was a philosophy major so that he could learn about all the different religions and philosophies as a preparation for his life's work. He consumed this stuff incessantly.

And in India, to be a philosophy major was akin to saying you wanted to be a hippie. But he knew the vision of his life.

Then for several years he taught philosophy to make a living but split the classroom time up into two halves. The first half he would teach what he was told to teach the way he was told to teach it. The second half, he would take a hatchet to everything he just said to enlighten the students to how false the philosophies were.

He got quite a following in his students and seeing that he quit teaching and started his efforts in earnest to achieve his vision. He had sharpened his intelligence to such a high degree that it was time to take on essentially the world with his "truth at all costs" style.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Ok, this is the SECOND Osho synchronicity moment...I said last week that you have a technique with people that Osho uses....here's the second common thread....

Osho knew from childhood that his life would be about exposing the lie that society is. In college, he was a philosophy major so that he could learn about all the different religions and philosophies as a preparation for his life's work. He consumed this stuff incessantly.

And in India, to be a philosophy major was akin to saying you wanted to be a hippie. But he knew the vision of his life.

Then for several years he taught philosophy to make a living but split the classroom time up into two halves. The first half he would teach what he was told to teach the way he was told to teach it. The second half, he would take a hatchet to everything he just said to enlighten the students to how false the philosophies were.

He got quite a following in his students and seeing that he quit teaching and started his efforts in earnest to achieve his vision. He had sharpened his intelligence to such a high degree that it was time to take on essentially the world with his "truth at all costs" style.

Wow, that's inspiring, Ron. Thanks for that. I could see myself doing exactly that, lol.

I've said that I could convert people to or from any belief system or religion. Because it's all subjective, and the truths of these religions are lies, and the truths leading away from those religions are lies.

Same goes for philosophy. They all have their arguments.

What was the first technique you pointed out? I don't recall.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Broken record time....please take a chance....go to Explore the Osho Online Library and seach "augustine". I've read a ton on the guy....really good stuff. St. Augustine got this stuff except he wasn't willing to walk away from the establishment (if I remember right). And search "free will".

You'll blow them away dude...

Never saw this coming!

[Andras]

...wait a moment, I thought we were "friends"

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Thanks Ron. I might use it for supplemental information, but Osho's not exactly a philosopher.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Andras

...wait a moment, I thought we were "friends"

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Wow, that's inspiring, Ron. Thanks for that. I could see myself doing exactly that, lol.

I've said that I could convert people to or from any belief system or religion. Because it's all subjective, and the truths of these religions are lies, and the truths leading away from those religions are lies.

Same goes for philosophy. They all have their arguments.

What was the first technique you pointed out? I don't recall.

The first one was when you said you meet people at the level of their beliefs and then slowly bring them out of beliefs. I said that Osho did the same thing. That keeps the believer's mind open to your message then as they grow more intelligent, they believe less and know more.

And in general that what I see "seekers" doing. Life is such a rich exploration that brings so much joy that we are compelled to share, which is an expression of love.

Whenever I watch science shows, the scientists are beaming! The eyes are full of light. And they love to share with one another in order to continue to discover more and more about the universe.

And I see seekers as scientists of the inner. The seekers are constantly sharing and looking for the next breakthrough of growth.

Both the inner and outer world are universes. Both are exciting places to gathering knowing and having personal hypothesis's and both keep life fresh as new layers of understanding are uncovered.

Life is a joy like this and a slow death when we cling to one dogma and hope it's true.

[Andras]

...there was more wisdom in Osho's little finger than all the new-age and self help crowd of today put together, call me "old-school" but Osho was great, not infallible or a saint but definitely a person with lots of mojo. He also had a great sense of humor.

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Andras

...there was more wisdom in Osho's little finger than all the new-age and self help crowd of today put together, call me "old-school" but Osho was great, not infallible or a saint but definitely a person with lots of mojo. He also had a great sense of humor.

And that is why I keep posting links and quotes because I've lived it. All the speculation about him is so false but that is the loss of those that "missed."

Everyone is fallible because no one knows it all. Experience is required to truly learn and who is born with every single possible experience in life already experienced? No one. So even enlightened masters still formulate a hypothesis and test it and then learn from the failures and enjoy the successes. Enlightenment does not equal perfection.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Andras

...there was more wisdom in Osho's little finger than all the new-age and self help crowd of today put together, call me "old-school" but Osho was great, not infallible or a saint but definitely a person with lots of mojo. He also had a great sense of humor.

That may be true, but he's still not a philosopher, so could not be used in a philosophy paper.

[Andras]

This is my favorite....
OSHO: Strange Consequences - YouTube

Originally Posted by RonSouther

And that is why I keep posting links and quotes because I've lived it. All the speculation about him is so false but that is the loss of those that "missed."

Everyone is fallible because no one knows it all. Experience is required to truly learn and who is born with every single possible experience in life already experienced? No one. So even enlightened masters still formulate a hypothesis and test it and then learn from the failures and enjoy the successes. Enlightenment does not equal perfection.

[ChristsLight]

I've been thinking more about this idea of no free will. It is tough for the mind because it wants to control things, so it is a little frightening.

But I'm thinking that if there is no free will, then there are no causes in the world—only effects. We say that if I do this, that will happen, while if I do that, this will happen. But that is not true. Both the appearance of doing and the thing that happens afterwards are just effects. Is there even a cause? I'm not sure.

It's reminding me of Hume, because he said that just because you do one thing and another seems to result doesn't mean that it is so, only that they are psychologically grouped together. Interesting. Am I going off here?

Also, if there is no free will, there can be no guilt. No one has chosen to do anything. It is only the appearance of choosing.

I was thinking about this in the context of teaching, too. It is not that teaching is the cause and learning is the effect. It's all one thing, all one appearance of awakening. I can't teach you anything, and you can't teach me anything. If you learn something after I have taught it, it is because you are having the appearance of awakening to it. It is not because I did anything.

This is so simple, yet so different. There is no obligation, no guilt, nothing to do.

[Rajagopalan]

We have been given freewill. But paradoxically our choice are already decided. This seems to be contradiction, but it is not. Because we are allowed to choose anything we want and whatever we are going to decide is also decided. Another important thing is, It is not when you awaken, but when One consciousness awaken through you.So those who got this awakening will choose their choice, but when they choose their choice they subconsciously pull remaining people to do work of them.Since remaining people doesn't aware of their reality, their reality freely changeable by anyone whom they will. It is all happening for Universal moment.