Do we need religion?

[Mu No Hito]

So the other I thought about death.

It is a subject that keeps coming up in my mind, partly because it is fascinating and scary at the same time.

I enjoy reading up about spirituality and I love learning about different religions. But I seem to have a "problem" with being the "authority" in my own life. I know that a conscious being has to make his own choices about right and wrong in life.

But I cant seem to help think that "am I just fooling myself". Isn't the message that mystics such as Jesus brought suppose to be followed fully. Are we picking and choosing? Is this "picking and choosing" a kind of novel/gimmicky form of spirituality?

I would love your feedback.

[innoweb]

as the Bible says at Luke 1:2, there is first and true religion, and Jesus Christ is the first to have that religion..you may just need to read and study the Word of God, the Bible... you will learn and know many things there, the truth, of what really the Bible teaches..you can trust on it because it is the Word of God..

[taylor]

I would love for a simple clear guide that answers all my questions and is beyond questioning.

However, it doesn't exist.

I tried that with The Bible in high school, but it took maybe a year of genuine study to run into some issues.

What's the alternative to picking and choosing?

From my experience, being much more mistaken.

It's all up to you and your conscience. Just the way it is.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Mu No Hito

But I cant seem to help think that "am I just fooling myself". Isn't the message that mystics such as Jesus brought suppose to be followed fully. Are we picking and choosing? Is this "picking and choosing" a kind of novel/gimmicky form of spirituality?

I have been alternately religious and spiritual at various times in my life, and I think the difference between religion and spirituality is whether you choose to live your life dogmatically or experientially.

If you choose to live religiously (dogmatically), you "follow" the message of your chosen teacher through an interpretation of "rules". If you "follow" the teacher spiritually, you rather interpret the message yourself, and consider what they would have done as applied to the particular circumstances of your own life.

Otherwise, there's a truism I once heard some time ago, that sums it up for me: "Religious people believe in hell; spiritual people have been there."

[Beingist]

As an aside ...

I don't know if it's intentional taylor, but I must say that your avatar is a particularly disturbing image.

[ChristsLight]

No, we don't need religion. It is useful for some time when a person isn't ready to drop their concepts, but then it just gets in the way. Religion is meant to be transcended.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Beingist

As an aside ...

I don't know if it's intentional taylor, but I must say that your avatar is a particularly disturbing image.

That's my face.

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Otherwise, there's a truism I once heard some time ago, that sums it up for me: "Religious people believe in hell; spiritual people have been there."

"Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there."~Bonnie Raitt

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

"Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there."~Bonnie Raitt

For some reason that seems to go farther back than Bonnie Raitt to me, but I don't mind if she said it, too.

[ChristsLight]

It's funny how once you start seeing how people do really create their own reality, you can see how they are creating their own hell. When they invite you to join, you just can't accept, because it's just a grand illusion they are spinning around themselves.

And I don't mean creating their own reality in the LoA sense, either. I mean that you can directly see how the limiting beliefs they hold are directly creating the types of situations they get themselves into, and it is as clear as day once you know what you're looking for.

[RonSouther]

If "religion" to you means taking on a set of beliefs that are given to you by someone or an institution, no...run from those.

If "religion" to you means a personal quest to find truth, find self, find out the meaning of life, then yes, its an amazing and arduous journey.

The quest cannot be institutionalized. It must be you asking the questions not you being told what all the answers are to questions you're not even asking.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

If "religion" to you means taking on a set of beliefs that are given to you by someone or an institution, no...run from those.

If "religion" to you means a personal quest to find truth, find self, find out the meaning of life, then yes, its an amazing and arduous journey.

The quest cannot be institutionalized. It must be you asking the questions not you being told what all the answers are to questions you're not even asking.

Even the quest must be dropped. Questions waste time from just being. That's all there is to it.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Even the quest must be dropped. Questions waste time from just being. That's all there is to it.

The quest will drop when self is realized....when we wake up from the dream and wonder how we were ever stuck in the dream to begin with.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The quest will drop when self is realized....when we wake up from the dream and wonder how we were ever stuck in the dream to begin with.

The quest and the incessant questioning keep you from realizing the Self. The Self is. Questions keep you from being. Questions cannot point you to truth because being has no answers.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

The quest and the incessant questioning keep you from realizing the Self. The Self is. Questions keep you from being. Questions cannot point you to truth because being has no answers.

I hear what you're saying but your "path" sounds entirely logical and because of that I don't see a path at all in it.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Mu No Hito

So the other I thought about death.

It is a subject that keeps coming up in my mind, partly because it is fascinating and scary at the same time.

I enjoy reading up about spirituality and I love learning about different religions. But I seem to have a "problem" with being the "authority" in my own life. I know that a conscious being has to make his own choices about right and wrong in life.

But I cant seem to help think that "am I just fooling myself". Isn't the message that mystics such as Jesus brought suppose to be followed fully. Are we picking and choosing? Is this "picking and choosing" a kind of novel/gimmicky form of spirituality?

I would love your feedback.

I think religion for most followers is a way of life and not just about a set of beliefs. I think spirituality is just another way of life no better, no worse.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I hear what you're saying but your "path" sounds entirely logical and because of that I don't see a path at all in it.

Actually, my "path" is completely absent of logic. You are right not to see a path in it, as there is none. Paths lead you away from who you already are. You are perfect.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I think religion for most followers is a way of life and not just about a set of beliefs. I think spirituality is just another way of life no better, no worse.

What does "way of life" mean? A way of pretending to be spiritual (which are the dogma based religions), or an ongoing quest from within to sort out life?

The dogma based religions don't allow a true quest. Doubt is not allowed and is mocked.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Actually, my "path" is completely absent of logic. You are right not to see a path in it, as there is none. Paths lead you away from who you already are. You are perfect.

"You are perfect" is a statement that a dogma is being built around. Thats not a path.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

"You are perfect" is a statement that a dogma is being built around.

What dogma? I'm discussing the complete absence of dogma.

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Thats not a path.

Exactly. I'm not talking about a path.

You are trying to go somewhere, and I'm saying that there's nowhere to go.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

What does "way of life" mean? A way of pretending to be spiritual (which are the dogma based religions), or an ongoing quest from within to sort out life?

The dogma based religions don't allow a true quest. Doubt is not allowed and is mocked.

Well Ron, I don't think you could have experienced religion as a way of life or you would know. The vast majority of believers are extremely nice, caring thoughtful people. Much like any other group who adopt a certain lifestyle. You obviously didn't adopt their lifestyle and chose instead 'spirituality' which is also forever telling us we are not good enough as we are. So what's your problem?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

What dogma? I'm discussing the complete absence of dogma.

Exactly. I'm not talking about a path.

You are trying to go somewhere, and I'm saying that there's nowhere to go.

The "path" is the method with which is used to help the person realize that he is perfect as he is. Its a bridge....we can all see the flaw, we can all see the ideal...the path is the bridge from thinking I am not perfect to realizing I am perfect. How do I come to realize it so that I don't have to just believe it? How can i know it?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Well Ron, I don't think you could have experienced religion as a way of life or you would know. The vast majority of believers are extremely nice, caring thoughtful people. Much like any other group who adopt a certain lifestyle. You obviously didn't adopt their lifestyle and chose instead 'spirituality' which is also forever telling us we are not good enough as we are. So what's your problem?

I was asking is "a way of life" in religion is a repetitive practice that becomes a mental habit or a yearning to know the truth? One is acting and the other is a true quest.

I am for the true quest and that quest can't be manufactured by any church. It has to arise from your being otherwise you're just acting religious.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I was asking is "a way of life" in religion is a repetitive practice that becomes a mental habit or a yearning to know the truth? One is acting and the other is a true quest.

It's none of those things in the eyes of a believer. It's very hard to describe but it becomes a part of who you are, along with all the other parts that make you who you are.

I am for the true quest and that quest can't be manufactured by any church. It has to arise from your being otherwise you're just acting religious.

I see nothing wrong in that but why are you being so anti-religious? It seems you are blaming religion for your 'false' beliefs now that you have new ones. I don't understand why your truth has to ride on breaking the the back of religion. Can't you find a truth that requires no mention of it?

[taylor]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I was asking is "a way of life" in religion is a repetitive practice that becomes a mental habit or a yearning to know the truth? One is acting and the other is a true quest.

Religion can be either.

One can be just obeying a habit out of previous conditioning. I would say an absurdly high % of any religion are of this type.

One also can genuinely be seeking God or Truth and religion is the rough technology you use to find Him with.

And there's all shades in between.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The "path" is the method with which is used to help the person realize that he is perfect as he is. Its a bridge....we can all see the flaw, we can all see the ideal...the path is the bridge from thinking I am not perfect to realizing I am perfect. How do I come to realize it so that I don't have to just believe it? How can i know it?

Actually I would say the path is the imagined process in which the mind believes it will attain its projection of perfection. With this believed projection, the person struggles onward thinking there is some sort of ideal to reach and it usually seems as if it's just around the corner. Both the sight of the flaw and the ideal are mere phantoms of imagination which become identified with and so a path is forged and the person develops a sense of spiritual purpose. There can become a sense of "I need to figure this spiritual stuff out before I can relax or move on".

Perfect is perhaps the wrong word because it tends to make most minds even more lost in imagination about what it would be like to be existing in perfection. Self realization occurs in the absence of fantasizing about states of grandeur, enlightenment or any other interesting concepts one can conjure up. You can come to know yourself when you're ready to wake up. When the imaginings are clearly seen as imaginings and they no longer interest you more than simple clarity.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Actually I would say the path is the imagined process in which the mind believes it will attain its projection of perfection. With this believed projection, the person struggles onward thinking there is some sort of ideal to reach and it usually seems as if it's just around the corner. Both the sight of the flaw and the ideal are mere phantoms of imagination which become identified with and so a path is forged and the person develops a sense of spiritual purpose. There can become a sense of "I need to figure this spiritual stuff out before I can relax or move on".

Perfect is perhaps the wrong word because it tends to make most minds even more lost in imagination about what it would be like to be existing in perfection. Self realization occurs in the absence of fantasizing about states of grandeur, enlightenment or any other interesting concepts one can conjure up. You can come to know yourself when you're ready to wake up. When the imaginings are clearly seen as imaginings and they no longer interest you more than simple clarity.

Couldn't self-realization, waking up and simple clarity be subject to the same imaginings?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Couldn't self-realization, waking up and simple clarity be subject to the same imaginings?

Of course.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Of course.

So it could ALL be B.S.?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The "path" is the method with which is used to help the person realize that he is perfect as he is. Its a bridge....we can all see the flaw, we can all see the ideal...the path is the bridge from thinking I am not perfect to realizing I am perfect. How do I come to realize it so that I don't have to just believe it? How can i know it?

Maybe we just have to know, accept and love ourselves as is, without the judgement of perfection.