So there is no "Me". Now what?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by tor

If peace is our true nature and is always present is there something wrong with informing the mind about it or even identifying with it.
If I hold the thought 'I am peace' or 'I am emptiness' I can't identify with anything else. I can't see how this could be a bad thing if my true nature is complete emptiness.

Who is informing the mind of anything? More mind. There's nothing bad or wrong about any of this. Only that it's more of the mind in a 'no-me' costume. As has been discussed before, it is a case of 'personal-oneness'. Wanting to have your cake and eat it too. Wanting freedom from the person but equally concerned about freedom for the person.

[tor]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Right. Preferences do not dissolve. Putting a hand on a hot stove is still quite undesirable. The mind poses many questions and makes many authoritative statements. Why is it a problem that the mind has asked 'now what'? What makes that thought any more significant than any other thought?]

There is still a desire to achieve some goals.
Maybe because there is still a sense of self?
Something is resisting living without goals.

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Okay. And now the mind is trying to figure out the rest of the equation?

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Right. The mind has taken the idea of 'no self' and twisted it in a way where the 'you' can pretend to not exist for a bit in order to help transform you in various ways and you are very much still identified with this. You realized you don't exist but you're also pretending to not exist. Do you see where it's just the mind tying knots in itself?

I understand what you mean. The mind chasing its tail.

I think what keeps "ME" existing are some goals I've set for myself. There is the idea of me achieving these goals and enjoying the rewards.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by tor

There is still a desire to achieve some goals.
Maybe because there is still a sense of self?
Something is resisting living without goals.






I understand what you mean. The mind chasing its tail.

I think what keeps "ME" existing are some goals I've set for myself. There is the idea of me achieving these goals and enjoying the rewards.

Yep. The "ME" is transforming and along with it is the comforting idea of no-self from which ironically the self can use to its advantage to find some peace here and there.

[taylor]

Why specifically are you pursuing "emptiness"?

If it's just to fix social anxiety and become confident there are much simpler means. There are similarities of non-control and non-thinking, but they don't run so deep.

If you are trying to "wake up" it ain't going to be a trivial affair and anyone who says stuff like "there is no waking up" blah blah, they are almost always just posturing with words. "Psuedo-enlightenment" I call it. It's a disease round these parts. Choose your guides wisely.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by taylor

Why specifically are you pursuing "emptiness"?

If it's just to fix social anxiety and become confident there are much simpler means. There are similarities of non-control and non-thinking, but they don't run so deep.

If you are trying to "wake up" it ain't going to be a trivial affair and anyone who says stuff like "there is no waking up" blah blah, they are almost always just posturing with words. "Psuedo-enlightenment" I call it. It's a disease round these parts. Choose your guides wisely.

Who's saying there's no waking up?

[taylor]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Who's saying there's no waking up?

I hear it all the time on these boards. On this thread I think there was "ego is a part of God so to try to get rid of it is another illusion" or something like that. Word games.

It's quite simple.

You identify with thought.

As long as there are thoughts, there will be an illusory self.

Every thought you think is keeping the ego propped up because every thought reconfirms your identity as the "thinker."

To end this illusory self, you must end thinking. (You can say thinking identification if you prefer, but it's the same process of not thinking until you separate.)

To do this you must surrender all desire to think. There is a tangible energy of desire underneath your thoughts you must let go of.

This will be very scary because it feels like you're dying, which you are. I just got finished explaining this in that thread on shutting down the mind.

No one has woken up until they die as ego and are reborn as emptiness.

But don't listen to me. Study the numerous first hand accounts of people who have been through it rather than internet philosophers.

[taylor]

Oh but, yeah that's why I asked tor why he was interested in this.

Waking up is a very radical, difficult, and rare thing to do. It's much easier to just learn how to relax when hitting on girls than it is to reach enlightenment lol.

[fellow traveler]

Originally Posted by tor

How should I approach dissolving fears and anxieties from this standpoint?

Your pain (fear), is equal to the Love/Life that you do not allow yourself to receive/experience. Face your fear by allowing yourself to feel it, and go forward anyway. ................ Remember that when you are feeling Fear, .. it is merely an indication that there is more of you waiting to be uncovered.

Fear is not the problem. .. It is Fear of the Fear that is the problem. If you do not fear your fear it will not stop you from moving forward. .....

Fear/pain, .. is one of Life's greatest teachers.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by taylor

I hear it all the time on these boards. On this thread I think there was "ego is a part of God so to try to get rid of it is another illusion" or something like that. Word games.

The ego is an idea that is believed in and points to the construct of thoughts you believe to be yourself. Clarity arises when one sees the futility of trying to fight against an idea as well as clearly seeing that it is in fact ego in one costume fighting ego in another costume. It's just an endless struggle of illusory control that can't be won. Saying it is futile to try to get rid of your ego is not the same as saying there's no waking up. The ego falls apart of its own accord when beliefs themselves are exposed as being false.

Originally Posted by taylor

It's quite simple.

You identify with thought.

As long as there are thoughts, there will be an illusory self.

Every thought you think is keeping the ego propped up because every thought reconfirms your identity as the "thinker."

To end this illusory self, you must end thinking. (You can say thinking identification if you prefer, but it's the same process of not thinking until you separate.)

To do this you must surrender all desire to think. There is a tangible energy of desire underneath your thoughts you must let go of.

This will be very scary because it feels like you're dying, which you are. I just got finished explaining this in that thread on shutting down the mind.

No one has woken up until they die as ego and are reborn as emptiness.

But don't listen to me. Study the numerous first hand accounts of people who have been through it rather than internet philosophers.

Believing you must end thinking is just another illusory belief. It's plan B when you can't seem to dis-identify with the thoughts that are appearing. It can be noticed that in the complete absence of thought, who you believe yourself to be is no longer there and the fear you mention can arise. However, believing you have control over stopping all thoughts is still identification with the thoughts and with the mind and ultimately getting lost in an illusory sense of control.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by taylor

Oh but, yeah that's why I asked tor why he was interested in this.

Waking up is a very radical, difficult, and rare thing to do. It's much easier to just learn how to relax when hitting on girls than it is to reach enlightenment lol.

Actually it can be radically simple and obvious when one stops fantasizing about how difficult, complex and amazing it will be when they are finally enlightened.

[Ken Benjamin]

Originally Posted by tor

How should I approach dissolving fears and anxieties from this standpoint?

Of course, I could just start approaching girls like mad from this impersonal perspective, but the anxiety wwould still make me stumble for words and my body would still be nervous.

I'll tackle this bit of your question which has been mostly overlooked.

If your goal is to meet girls you like, don't just approach like mad or they'll run away like mad. Find ones you like and who you think like you. Make eye contact. Say hello. Be yourself.

Confidence will come from slow and steady effort. Each girl you nervously approach will give you some more confidence the next time and the words will come along more easily. Yes, you will get rejected more often that you might like or expect but not by the right girls.

Be natural, don't try to game them. Be brave enough to say hello.

Use each experience to learn and grow. Also figure out what kinds of girls you would really enjoy talking to. It's much easier if you don't focus on the sex but on the friendship part of things. The sex often comes with the friendship, not as much the other way around.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Believing you must end thinking is just another illusory belief.

This. This is the kind of nonsense word game that's made by ego for ego to keep itself going. The perfect set of beliefs isn't going to work because enlightenment is NOT a product of the intellect. You must go beyond. There's no exception to this. Talk is cheap. You must do the work.

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

It's plan B when you can't seem to dis-identify with the thoughts that are appearing. It can be noticed that in the complete absence of thought, who you believe yourself to be is no longer there and the fear you mention can arise. However, believing you have control over stopping all thoughts is still identification with the thoughts and with the mind and ultimately getting lost in an illusory sense of control.

That sounds plausible on the surface, but it's the opposite when you're doing the practice. When you surrender the energy of thinking you are losing all control. That energy IS the identification with thought. That energy IS the delusion of control.

To anyone who wants to know the truth you'll have to just try and see.
Words keep you deluded.

Do the practice and see for yourself.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by taylor

This. This is the kind of nonsense word game that's made by ego for ego to keep itself going. The perfect set of beliefs isn't going to work because enlightenment is NOT a product of the intellect. You must go beyond. There's no exception to this. Talk is cheap. You must do the work.

Heh, of course. Lots of work and transformation to be done and to be had for the one who is waiting to be enlightened. What I'm pointing out is that your belief system itself is premised on a false notion. There is no perfect set of beliefs and all the work you think you're doing is completely missing the point. There's no grand map or procedure to become what you already are. In grasping the crystal clear simplicity that you already are what you seek, awakening occurs spontaneously without anyone there to own it and say they produced it, they are enlightened or they made it happen through their diligent work.

Originally Posted by taylor

That sounds plausible on the surface, but it's the opposite when you're doing the practice. When you surrender the energy of thinking you are losing all control. That energy IS the identification with thought. That energy IS the delusion of control.

To anyone who wants to know the truth you'll have to just try and see.
Words keep you deluded.

Do the practice and see for yourself.

It's ultimately all about surrendering. Including surrendering the one who believes they are doing the practice and sees importance in stopping their thoughts.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

It's ultimately all about surrendering. Including surrendering the one who believes they are doing the practice and sees importance in stopping their thoughts.

True, but this "doer" disappears when your thoughts do, along with the rest of the world.

"When thoughts arise, then do all things arise. When thoughts vanish, then do all things vanish." - Huang Po

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by taylor

True, but this "doer" disappears when your thoughts do, along with the rest of the world.

"When thoughts arise, then do all things arise. When thoughts vanish, then do all things vanish." - Huang Po

Yes, as I said in the post before that, it is in that space of no conceptualization that it can be clearly noticed that who you believe yourself to be is not there but yet 'you' still somehow are and can notice this. You most certainly exist but not as a doer or a thinker. If one can stop fussing about trying to control the mind in one way or another they might notice that it doesn't actually matter what the mind is saying or doing and look deeper.