Two questions about ho'oponopono

[Tanemon]

I have a couple questions about the praice of ho-oponopono. First, I'll say that "I am sorry, Please forgive me, I love you" is a beautiful phrase. And I'm sure that the inner emotional cleansing for the person practicing this is real.

Now... One question is: How can you be sure, in addressing a situation or person that you find very difficult, that you really feel love when you apply the above phrase? How can you be sure you are not just going through the motions, either verbally or mentally?

The other question is: We know, say from how things work in dysfunctional groups or families, that people can "enable" very inapporpriate or destructive behavior. Example: you are running a business and you have an employee who is often late to work, does a sloppy job, and resists responding to suggestions (and may even carry the attitude over into other areas of his/her life) - but you, as the business owner, shrug it off and act indulgently toward the person. Or, take the case of, say, a man who is abusive (and sometimes) violent when drunk, among his family. "Enabling" has been pointed out as contributing to the perpetuation of such persons' problems.

[CoolBee]

There is only you.

Everything is a manifestation from within yourself.
When you say 'I love you', it is ultimately some aspect of yourself that you are loving. It doesn't matter whether you think you mean it or not apparently.

Regarding the second part, I didn't see the question there, but anyway, these things with the employees that are showing up are 'patterns'. When they show up repeatedly, it's a hint that something needs cleaning. Fact is, YOU don't know what needs 'cleaning' and you need to let go of the idea that you can figure it out (which can be very hard if you are someone who likes figuring out causes, effects, problem solving!)

If you go on the Intention Manifestation section then you will see a couple of threads on Ho'oponopono - one is called Zero Limits and the other has got ho'oponopono in the title which have some very interesting discussions in them.

In particular PianoPerformer's Zero Limits thread has got some interesting posts where he and another poster use Byron Katie's The Work to help with the cleaning.

[Tanemon]

Thanks, CoolBee. You've explained a number of things succinctly.

Originally Posted by CoolBee

Regarding the second part, I didn't see the question there, but anyway, these things with the employees that are showing up are 'patterns'. When they show up repeatedly, it's a hint that something needs cleaning. Fact is, YOU don't know what needs 'cleaning' and you need to let go of the idea that you can figure it out (which can be very hard if you are someone who likes figuring out causes, effects, problem solving!).

Mmm... The question is this: If you take on all responsibility, then you don't actually give responsibility to other people, right? I'll try to illustrate.

In situations like a business, a sports team, or even a family, typically each person is expected to "do their part" or things don't go well. The team loses. You can really see this exemplified in a baseball team, soccer team, basketball team - anything like that. The team members each have responsibility to bear. Coaching, in sports, is intended to be supportive, but it must also be critical. "Constructive criticism". While sports teams can lose, families can become dysfunctional.

So I'm wondering if some peolple here on Pavlina have enough experience with ho'oponopono to know where communication, and responsibility of the other person, and constructive criticism fit in.

[Andras]

I think when you reach a certain point on the self-discovery path you realize that most often we were paying attention to unimportant things. Holding a grudge will just affect US negatively, not the one we begrudge. Karma will take care of that! There is no reason to worry and be angry.
Nothing is REALLY important in the great scheme of things, all things that today bother us are just dust and pebbles on the long and winding road. Just pick up the pace and dust off your feet. Forgiveness is great because it acknowledges that someone may have done you ill, but that is life, just move on and it will pass. I love the Hawaiian philosophy (I own the book called Ho'opono by Pali Jae Lee) and the Kahuna way.
Hold no grudge and cleanse by forgiveness. The key word is compassion. You cannot love everybody but you can be more understanding and know that we all have been there, if you believe in reincarnation then you have been every kind of a person, murderer and spectator of murder, perhaps worse. Murder is not the worst thing, because the person you kill will just reincarnate, albeit at a tragic loss of a family and friends. In the fabric of this illusion we call "life", somethings happen and we should never question anything because nothing happens as random.

Originally Posted by Tanemon

I have a couple questions about the praice of ho-oponopono. First, I'll say that "I am sorry, Please forgive me, I love you" is a beautiful phrase. And I'm sure that the inner emotional cleansing for the person practicing this is real.

Now... One question is: How can you be sure, in addressing a situation or person that you find very difficult, that you really feel love when you apply the above phrase? How can you be sure you are not just going through the motions, either verbally or mentally?

The other question is: We know, say from how things work in dysfunctional groups or families, that people can "enable" very inapporpriate or destructive behavior. Example: you are running a business and you have an employee who is often late to work, does a sloppy job, and resists responding to suggestions (and may even carry the attitude over into other areas of his/her life) - but you, as the business owner, shrug it off and act indulgently toward the person. Or, take the case of, say, a man who is abusive (and sometimes) violent when drunk, among his family. "Enabling" has been pointed out as contributing to the perpetuation of such persons' problems.

[Tanemon]

Andras, your explanation is appealing. What I understand you to be saying is that a person can take responsibility for their own feelings, but cannot be expected to be responsible for what other people do.

Things may or may not seem to go smoothly, but a good attitude free of grudges helps one to feel better about living.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Tanemon

Andras, your explanation is appealing. What I understand you to be saying is that a person can take responsibility for their own feelings, but cannot be expected to be responsible for what other people do.

Things may or may not seem to go smoothly, but a good attitude free of grudges helps one to feel better about living.

This is not what hoʻoponopono teaches. You are completely 100% responsible for everything, even the other person and what they think, say, or do, and the effects resulting from that. It is in your reality. There is really no "out there," so they are within your own consciousness, not out there in the world independent of you.

So the answer to your second question is that you are fully responsible for whatever is going on in the other person.

There was a story of a woman who owned a business. One of her employees was stealing money from the company. When she found out, she was furious. She kept cleaning on it, though she was still very angry. She did not mean it at first when she said "I love you" etc, and often relapsed into that anger. But after three days, the situation was completely resolved and the employee apologized.

So yes, you have complete responsibility for everything anyone in your life appears to do, whether or not it involves you. You are responsible for the problems that arise in others' lives as well. It is all your own data and memories playing out in front of you.

[Andras]

It is closer to Christlight's explanation. [I own the book but I admit I have not finished it and assimilated into my world view]. My teacher said that Jesus's was right in saying; "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18 AV)" which actually alludes to the fact that nothing is by accident and random.
We must look at things as they are and accept them, and acceptance means surrendering to what is, you can only fix your own reaction. We, because of the Law of Karma are responsible, 100-percent to what is happening - there is individual and group karma.
[this is not what the Kahuna teaches but what I hold to be true]

Originally Posted by Tanemon

Andras, your explanation is appealing. What I understand you to be saying is that a person can take responsibility for their own feelings, but cannot be expected to be responsible for what other people do.

Things may or may not seem to go smoothly, but a good attitude free of grudges helps one to feel better about living.

[Tanemon]

Okay, thanks to both of you for the explanations.

I've been trying the ho'oponopono approach. So I'm not 'standing outside the situation throwing rocks at it' or anything.

It seems to me that although we may start working with the ho'oponopono method, we still live in the world where there are some "normal" patterns by which people assign responsibility to each individual. So I guess we just carry on with that, in terms of outward life, eh?

I understand the point about individual and collective karma, but our world also seems to operate on the basis of the free will and actions of billions of people. Responsibility is assigned to virtually each of those people.

I mean, a mother has to transfer morals and expectations to her children, and so does a father - if they take the parenting role seriously. Players on a sports team each take responsibility and expect their teammates to do so, also. Drivers expect other drivers will drive on the right side of the road (except in British Commonwealth countries, where they drive on the left ). In all sorts of spheres, police and courts put responsibility on each adult individual. (Not just on you who practice ho'oponopono.)

Or what would you say?

[ChristsLight]

If you read the Zero Limits book, they cite studies that suggest there may not be free will at all. The choice is already made by the time it reaches our conscious awareness.

If in your world, someone seems to not take responsibility for what they should be doing, it is your responsibility that this is happening. The world is just a bunch of data playing out; that doesn't matter. But if you're angry at someone because they didn't do their part, that's your responsibility that it played out that way. It's just a program from your subconscious.

It is radical thinking, but it does work wonderfully. Our egos want to assign blame, but there is no blame, just responsibility, and that responsibility lies with us.

[Andras]

Ho'oponopono is the word used in Vitae's book "Zero Limits" and the Hawaiian author Pali Jae Lee used Ho'opono:The Hawaiian Way to Put Things Back into Balance
So as with Hawaiian words it is spelled differently but the same idea/concept apparently. The huna society by the way is for profit, fake pseudo-church that most Hawaiians shun.
[This information came about my research on the Kahuna]

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Andras

Ho'oponopono is the word used in Vitae's book "Zero Limits" and the Hawaiian author Pali Jae Lee used Ho'opono:The Hawaiian Way to Put Things Back into Balance
So as with Hawaiian words it is spelled differently but the same idea/concept apparently. The huna society by the way is for profit, fake pseudo-church that most Hawaiians shun.
[This information came about my research on the Kahuna]

To whom are you replying? If you are replying to me, then yes I am referring to Zero Limits and hoʻoponopono.

[Andras]

Nobody specifically. I am pointing out the words used in two places depicting the same thing. It is a fad to use hawaiian words even spelled badly (we seem more in tune with nature and spiritual) but then it would be nice to use the proper spelling of it.
Vitale's book is OK, but many people question his knowledge and motives(seems to be money) on this, his co-author seems to be the "real deal" however.

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

To whom are you replying? If you are replying to me, then yes I am referring to Zero Limits and hoʻoponopono.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Andras

Nobody specifically. I am pointing out the words used in two places depicting the same thing. It is a fad to use hawaiian words even spelled badly (we seem more in tune with nature and spiritual) but then it would be nice to use the proper spelling of it.
Vitale's book is OK, but many people question his knowledge and motives(seems to be money) on this, his co-author seems to be the "real deal" however.

I have seen the Zero Limits Live seminar, and I can tell you without question that Vitale is the real deal, also. He is very genuine.

[Andras]

Here is the most helpful critical review of this book from an expert on the subject (which I am decidedly NOT) (a former student of Mornah Simenoa)
In Memory of Morrnah.....

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

I have seen the Zero Limits Live seminar, and I can tell you without question that Vitale is the real deal, also. He is very genuine.

[ChristsLight]

I read that review before purchasing the book, and it nearly prevented me from purchasing it. However, after reading the book and seeing the videos, I believe the review is unduly critical.

Whether it is completely faithful to Mornah's process and teaching, I don't know. It sounds like Dr. Len respected her and her teachings, so I don't think there is any disrespect there. Processes are meant to evolve and change, though; if a process is always taken as law, then a religion is created. This is about returning to the Divine, not creating a religion.

One of the major criticisms is that the Divine is not zero. Surely this is just a personal belie, and I wouldn't let this get in the way of the teachings. It's just semantics. I do believe that being is zero.

All I can say is that it works. It's worked for me, and for others.

If people want something to criticize, they will find something to criticize. But to try it anyway despite the criticism is best, as otherwise you will never know whether it works. In my experience, it does.

[Andras]

I too, do not like semantics get in the way....as a former Pythagorean numerology student and practitioner I, too (personally) consider the zero the source and divine, but if someone says to me that for him that is one - who cares?
Pythagoras never talked about the zero but that is not the point, believe and work with whatever makes sense to you.

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

I read that review before purchasing the book, and it nearly prevented me from purchasing it. However, after reading the book and seeing the videos, I believe the review is unduly critical.

Whether it is completely faithful to Mornah's process and teaching, I don't know. It sounds like Dr. Len respected her and her teachings, so I don't think there is any disrespect there. Processes are meant to evolve and change, though; if a process is always taken as law, then a religion is created. This is about returning to the Divine, not creating a religion.

One of the major criticisms is that the Divine is not zero. Surely this is just a personal belie, and I wouldn't let this get in the way of the teachings. It's just semantics. I do believe that being is zero.

All I can say is that it works. It's worked for me, and for others.

If people want something to criticize, they will find something to criticize. But to try it anyway despite the criticism is best, as otherwise you will never know whether it works. In my experience, it does.