[Split Thread]: Free Will

[greatmind]

Yes we do have free will. What I believe is what seems like destiny is also the result of our choices/free-will we made in past lives. Then also other people with more powerful intentions are also exerting their will on us and that can be positive and negative both. So yes we do have choice.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by emily

Hi Everyone -
I have pondered this seemingly simple, yet extremely complex question and I need help answering it for class. It really is a matter of opinion but I would like to know what other people think. Do you believe in destiny or do you choose to believe in free-will? Do we choose our lives and what happens in them or do they just happen - everything moving with the tides of fate? Please also explain WHY you believe whatever you believe and add examples you see in life. Please reply!

Every culture creates in its young habits in behavior. If you remain unconscious of this programming then your future is one of destiny. You will simply more or less live like your ancestors, celebrating the same holidays in the same way, worshipping the same god in the same way and so on. You will live trying to meet the expectations of the society and of the expectations the society has imprinted in you.

But to become aware of this programming which is also to become aware of "self", you're future is no longer determined by habitual thinking and actions. You instead respond to each moment and to the society, you are unpredictable. You can't be exploited or pressured to conform. In that sense you have free will. You won't act out like a programmed robot like your ancestors. Instead you will bring a fresh approach out of your intelligent creativity. Your life will be a contribution, not a repetition.

[RonSouther]

Animals are prisoners; they have a certain limited area of being. Man has the capacity, the intelligence, the freedom to explore.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Animals are prisoners; they have a certain limited area of being. Man has the capacity, the intelligence, the freedom to explore.

If a dog could speak it would probably laugh at this notion and inform you that you are the one stuck within your own prison.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

If a dog could speak it would probably laugh at this notion and inform you that you are the one stuck within your own prison.

Ok.....you got issues dude.....I made my peace...nothing more to add.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Ok.....you got issues dude.....I made my peace...nothing more to add.

Did I miss something?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Did I miss something?

Yup......wheres the "mirror" in your life? I am asking...I dont know.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Yup......wheres the "mirror" in your life? I am asking...I dont know.

In my bathroom?

[pianoperformer]

This thread was split from Do You Have a CHOICE? because the other thread was bumped from two years ago.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Did I miss something?

I think you weren't sposed to disagree.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I think you weren't sposed to disagree.

Yes, that seems to be a common theme lately.

[greatmind]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Every culture creates in its young habits in behavior. If you remain unconscious of this programming then your future is one of destiny. You will simply more or less live like your ancestors, celebrating the same holidays in the same way, worshipping the same god in the same way and so on. You will live trying to meet the expectations of the society and of the expectations the society has imprinted in you.

But to become aware of this programming which is also to become aware of "self", you're future is no longer determined by habitual thinking and actions. You instead respond to each moment and to the society, you are unpredictable. You can't be exploited or pressured to conform. In that sense you have free will. You won't act out like a programmed robot like your ancestors. Instead you will bring a fresh approach out of your intelligent creativity. Your life will be a contribution, not a repetition.

I agree with you 100%. Why do we have to live according to the out dated rules and regulations made by our societies? We are all intelligent and conscious creatures and we are capable of independent thinking. We no longer need to live by standards set by others for us but to define our own standards and live according to them even if it means facing the society. We should have our own perception of looking at things and then follow them or discard them. If our parents or other elders did something doesn't mean we have to follow them blindly. May be what they did was right according to them but it doesn't mean we also have to do or follow the same. The day all people realize this humanity will be free from these outdated and useless rituals and concepts. So I think we must exert our free-will and not be slaves to destiny or other outdated things.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by greatmind

I agree with you 100%. Why do we have to live according to the out dated rules and regulations made by our societies? We are all intelligent and conscious creatures and we are capable of independent thinking. We no longer need to live by standards set by others for us but to define our own standards and live according to them even if it means facing the society. We should have our own perception of looking at things and then follow them or discard them. If our parents or other elders did something doesn't mean we have to follow them blindly. May be what they did was right according to them but it doesn't mean we also have to do or follow the same. The day all people realize this humanity will be free from these outdated and useless rituals and concepts. So I think we must exert our free-will and not be slaves to destiny or other outdated things.

:-) Nice to meet you, Mr. Lion! Great quote below!

"Zarathustra divides the evolution of consciousness into three symbols: the camel, the lion, and the child.

The camel is a beast of burden, ready to be enslaved, never rebellious. He cannot ever say no. He is a believer, a follower, a faithful slave. That is the lowest in human consciousness.

The lion is a revolution. The beginning of the revolution is a sacred no.

In the consciousness of the camel there is always a need for someone to lead and someone to say to him, “Thou shalt do this.” He needs the Ten Commandments. He needs all the religions, all the priests and all the holy scriptures because he cannot trust himself. He has no courage and no soul and no longing for freedom. He’s obedient.

The lion is a longing for freedom, a desire to destroy all imprisonments. The lion is not in need of any leader; he is enough unto himself. He will not allow anybody else to say to him, “Thou shalt,” – that is insulting to his pride. He can only say, “I will.” The lion is responsibility and a tremendous effort to get out of all chains.

But even the lion is not the highest peak of human growth. The highest peak is when the lion also goes through a metamorphosis and becomes a child. The child is innocence. It is not obedience, it is not disobedience; it is not belief, it is not disbelief – it is pure trust, it is a sacred yes to existence and to life and to all that it contains.

The child is the very peak of purity, sincerity, authenticity, receptivity, and openness to existence. These symbols are very beautiful."

[alphamind]

I don't believe in free will. It is something I've always had trouble accepting despite the more experienced souls, the bible, etc stating that it does exist. Destiny is something I witness daily, and you cannot combine destiny with free will. If you do, then "free will" would actually be the free will of our higher self, which means the free will exists beyond the duality. Since most of us are stuck in this duality most of the time and lost in the illusion, from the seperation's point of view free will doesn't actually exist, and our thoughts are more like the illusion of free thinking.

Think of it this way: you try to clear your mind, and thoughts keep rushing through your mind. You don't consciously choose to have those thoughts, yet they still come up. While these thoughts take over (example purposes) and lose you from the present moment, all of a sudden 'you' wake up from the day dreaming and snap back to the present moment. Well, if you were actually lost in those thoughts - again - how could 'you' suddenly snap out of it? Something greater (and simultaneously) you, intervened the rushing thought process.

Throw in all influences. From the day's vibration, to the Earth's, other planets, heck the entire universe. I don't know, it seems what is beyond the duality is what has the free will, not our ego which is how most humans operate.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by alphamind

I don't believe in free will. It is something I've always had trouble accepting despite the more experienced souls, the bible, etc stating that it does exist. Destiny is something I witness daily, and you cannot combine destiny with free will. If you do, then "free will" would actually be the free will of our higher self, which means the free will exists beyond the duality. Since most of us are stuck in this duality most of the time and lost in the illusion, from the seperation's point of view free will doesn't actually exist, and our thoughts are more like the illusion of free thinking.

Think of it this way: you try to clear your mind, and thoughts keep rushing through your mind. You don't consciously choose to have those thoughts, yet they still come up. While these thoughts take over (example purposes) and lose you from the present moment, all of a sudden 'you' wake up from the day dreaming and snap back to the present moment. Well, if you were actually lost in those thoughts - again - how could 'you' suddenly snap out of it? Something greater (and simultaneously) you, intervened the rushing thought process.

Throw in all influences. From the day's vibration, to the Earth's, other planets, heck the entire universe. I don't know, it seems what is beyond the duality is what has the free will, not our ego which is how most humans operate.

Agreed.
There isn't something beyond duality that has free will either. The idea of free will arises from the idea of separation.

[alphamind]

Something that doesn't make much sense is why would this topic be discussed if free will doesn't exist. If my above post has the right idea, why would the universe manifest this reality questioning free will? Discussing this topic implies SOME sort of free will.
The same goes for this post right here.

[theuprising]

meh i'm not so sure about free will, I guess it would mesh well with spirituality, because if there was, the universe could be "living". See the one rule of the universe is nothing is perfect, the big bang did not have equal particles when it expanded, it had very TINY gaps in it, which created what we see today. If not, everything would be just a blob of matter.

Why these gaps? Was it a will exerted upon it? Was the whole thing dreamed up? If you look at the quantum level of things, it is the only part of physics that has some nondeterministic things in it, which are completely random, such as radioactive decay. What decides when this randomness happens?

But to the matter if there is free will for an individual's mind, that is another question. But it would mesh well with spirituality, with everything dreamt up or decided upon, with everything being alive to some extent.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by alphamind

Something that doesn't make much sense is why would this topic be discussed if free will doesn't exist. If my above post has the right idea, why would the universe manifest this reality questioning free will? Discussing this topic implies SOME sort of free will.
The same goes for this post right here.

Why would discussing a misperception imply that the misperception must be true?

The universe isn't a big person with a purpose.

[DonJuan]

Originally Posted by greatmind

Yes we do have free will. What I believe is what seems like destiny is also the result of our choices/free-will we made in past lives. Then also other people with more powerful intentions are also exerting their will on us and that can be positive and negative both. So yes we do have choice.

Yes I think we have free will we can decide as much as we want. And paradoxically all we do is already written down. This seems to be like a contradiction but I think its not. They are different point of views. Our brain that makes decisions and "the organisation of destiny" are on so different levels that they actually don't interfere. Both coexist. And our mind does decisions within the framework of destiny and that is its job.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by DonJuan

Yes I think we have free will we can decide as much as we want. And paradoxically all we do is already written down. This seems to be like a contradiction but I think its not. They are different point of views. Our brain that makes decisions and "the organisation of destiny" are on so different levels that they actually don't interfere. Both coexist. And our mind does decisions within the framework of destiny and that is its job.

It's much simpler. Choosing happens by itself, then you declare you did it.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Agreed.
There isn't something beyond duality that has free will either. The idea of free will arises from the idea of separation.

When you say "something beyond duality" do you mean there is nothing at all that "chooses" or are you just saying that nothing chooses independently from the whole?

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It's much simpler. Choosing happens by itself, then you declare you did it.

When you say "by itself" do you mean it is "causeless"? And if it does have a cause, what is the ultimate cause?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

When you say "something beyond duality" do you mean there is nothing at all that "chooses" or are you just saying that nothing chooses independently from the whole?

Nothing chooses. Desire arises in the mind, factors align with the desire and action follows. The process is complete within itself. A choice is declared out of the belief that there is a chooser, and that the declaration is necessary. Many actions are performed in which there isn't sufficient interest to declare a choice, or even to bring the process to full conscious awareness, and yet it happens. All of this can be observed in your actual experience. You can reflect on the moment of consciously choosing and notice that everything is already in place and the choosing is quite irrelevant; an overlay onto what has already been set in motion on less conscious levels.

When you say "by itself" do you mean it is "causeless"? And if it does have a cause, what is the ultimate cause?

Causeless within the context of form. We can say consciousness (singular) is the cause of everything, but at that 'level' it's a spontaneous, integrated expression of the whole, meaning intelligence expressing in the form of thought while, itself, being thoughtless, and therefore not a chooser.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Causeless within the context of form. We can say consciousness (singular) is the cause of everything, but at that 'level' it's a spontaneous, integrated expression of the whole, meaning intelligence expressing in the form of thought while, itself, being thoughtless, and therefore not a chooser.

I don't understand why being thoughtless makes it not a chooser? Does thought imply identity to you? Can you clarify that a bit? And does "spontaneous" mean "random" to you?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

I don't understand why being thoughtless makes it not a chooser? Does thought imply identity to you? Can you clarify that a bit? And does "spontaneous" mean "random" to you?

A choice is a thought, is it not?

Spontaneous means unmediated by mind.

[greatmind]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It's much simpler. Choosing happens by itself, then you declare you did it.

And who exactly chooses? How does this choosing thing happens? Obviously we decide to choose and then we choose.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by greatmind

And who exactly chooses? How does this choosing thing happens? Obviously we decide to choose and then we choose.

The belief that somebody chooses leads to choosing.
If you believe you talk to aliens on another planet, you can't say, 'Well if there are no aliens then who am I talking to?' as evidence that you really are talking to aliens.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

A choice is a thought, is it not?

Spontaneous means unmediated by mind.

I suppose a choice could be considered a thought, depending on how you define thought.

I see thought as the shape that consciousness has assumed at any given time. If there are no thoughts, it is shapeless, formless, and undifferentiated.

I think I get hung up with the vernacular a lot of people use when they describe non-duality. Maybe it is just my unfamiliarity with that vernacular that makes me analyze it so. I try to avoid hair splitting, but sometimes I can't resist the temptation.

In the context of a discussion about free will, it would seem from my vantage point that consciousness is choosing, and if it is in fact choosing as an integrated whole, as you say, then it is a chooser. You even said yourself, that it was the cause of everything. A choice, or discrimination, is being made, just not from the 'level' of "thought". More or less a semantic argument, from my perspective.

And since we are not really people or egos, we all are choosing with it, as one. Just not from the human perspective. Not that it matters. One choice is just as arbitrary as another right? But I think it is just as inaccurate to say there is no choosing going on as it is to say it is going on.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

I suppose a choice could be considered a thought, depending on how you define thought.

I see thought as the shape that consciousness has assumed at any given time. If there are no thoughts, it is shapeless, formless, and undifferentiated.

I think I get hung up with the vernacular a lot of people use when they describe non-duality. Maybe it is just my unfamiliarity with that vernacular that makes me analyze it so. I try to avoid hair splitting, but sometimes I can't resist the temptation.

In the context of a discussion about free will, it would seem from my vantage point that consciousness is choosing, and if it is in fact choosing as an integrated whole, as you say, then it is a chooser. You even said yourself, that it was the cause of everything. A choice, or discrimination, is being made, just not from the 'level' of "thought". More or less a semantic argument, from my perspective.

And since we are not really people or egos, we all are choosing with it, as one. Just not from the human perspective. Not that it matters. One choice is just as arbitrary as another right? But I think it is just as inaccurate to say there is no choosing going on as it is to say it is going on.

Oh, I wouldn't say there's no choosing happening. Clearly there is.
If we are all choosing as one, then nobody is choosing, right?

[DonJuan]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It's much simpler. Choosing happens by itself, then you declare you did it.

I totally agree, The fact that our brain makes a certain decision is already "written". And yet our brain has a function in that process. And yes the Ego wrongly believes, decisions are just the responsibility of the brain.

[DonJuan]

Originally Posted by greatmind

And who exactly chooses? How does this choosing thing happens? Obviously we decide to choose and then we choose.

This question just makes sense from the level of the Ego, from the level of the logical mind. And from that point of view the logical mind does the decision.

From a greater perspective there is just live and flow and energy movements. and the way the movements are happening is beyond our logical mind, our brain. Some people call it the breath of life... To use some craniosacral terms.. But the term doesn't matter.

But from different point of views the world looks different, and yes sometimes they seem to contradict each other