How much does belief shape life experience?

[Tanemon]

There've been a lot of threads where people have expressed that our experience in life is determined by our beliefs. Though I agree, I'm not sure I agree completely or absolutely.

As a kid, I believed strongly in many things that were presented to me (as spiritual beliefs and religious ideas) by my parents. However, over time I saw no evidence (or not very much evidence) for these beliefs of mine. And they'd fall away. Belief, apparently, did not determine my experience.

My interest in "truth" was piqued, and I guess this started me on my actual personal spiritual quest - which has involved meditation, energy work, dream exploration, etc. I'm still on my path of spiritual disovery, obviously.

IOW, for me, I almost feel experience has determined my beliefs more than beliefs determining my experience. At least, as far as I can tell.

On the practical side, one person may find that substituting a more empowering, optimistic belief may be a way of letting go of a limiting belief. While another person may find that being taken by surprise by a startling new experience in everyday life is usually the only thing that dissolves her or his old limiting belief.

For me, affirmations have sometimes worked to an extent - like in situations of human interaction that have made me timid or nervous. Repeating an affirmation has ocasionally given me enough confidence to dive into a situation, and find that I can do okay in it... then I can gradually get more comfortable in it and develop more finesse.

But I've also had the experience of 'the giant leap' in which suddenly I'm in a new personal, subjective space and a number of old, limiting beliefs dissolved away, more or less all at once.

Leaving me confused about to what degree beliefs shape our lives. They can just disappear.

[RonSouther]

To the extent that beliefs get practiced and that practicing becomes automated habitual living, yes your beliefs will shape your life.

Stay away from belief systems to retain your authentic individuality, to retain your ability to grow from your mistakes, to be able to witness your true self allow you one day to realize self which allows love for self, to be able to live spontaneously and free of expectations.

Beliefs systems are the greatest waste of life imaginable, so much so that all wars are about competing belief systems.

[Beingist]

I think it's the other way round--How much does life experience shape beliefs?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I think it's the other way round--How much does life experience shape beliefs?

Experience is the acting out of beliefs....they get tested.....if the beliefs are a hypothesis, then the person is looking to learn from the results. If the person is wrapped up in dogma then when the results dont match the beliefs, the person looks to blame others or circumstances.

Beliefs shouldn't be anything more than a placeholder until a true knowing can replace them. As a lifestyle, they are poison.

[sonde]

Originally Posted by Tanemon

However, over time I saw no evidence (or not very much evidence) for these beliefs of mine. And they'd fall away. Belief, apparently, did not determine my experience.

Not believing is still a belief; there is still something there to not believe. You can experience what you do not believe.

[pianoperformer]

Experience is completely rooted in belief.

In the case of your prior religious beliefs, you would not have experienced conflict in your life if there were no conflict in your beliefs. If you had no room for doubt, no doubt could enter.

Beliefs can be much more subtle than you could imagine. So even if it seems that experiences are driving your beliefs, it is really very deeply rooted beliefs that drive your experience, which drive more conscious beliefs.

[Tanemon]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Experience is completely rooted in belief.

In the case of your prior religious beliefs, you would not have experienced conflict in your life if there were no conflict in your beliefs. If you had no room for doubt, no doubt could enter.

So, then, do you feel that each person is born with a set of beliefs that will ultimately shape his or her conscious beliefs, as well as his or her life?

I get the sense that you feel that beliefs that may be taught to the person will eventually be tested by the person's life - and these surface beliefs that do not agree with the person's fundamental beliefs will fall away.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Tanemon

So, then, do you feel that each person is born with a set of beliefs that will ultimately shape his or her conscious beliefs, as well as his or her life?

This has many layers of truth, as everything does, so it is difficult to answer.

Let's try this though: as a soul, we accumulate beliefs throughout our lifetimes. In general, though, we are prone by the simple fact of perceiving ourselves to be individuals to have particular beliefs. The only root belief, I think, is that we are separate, and this leads to other beliefs that stem from this.

I also think we are quite prone to picking up beliefs as children, and even as babies, or in the womb. We don't necessarily have the ability to discriminate between things we should not believe.

Originally Posted by Tanemon

I get the sense that you feel that beliefs that may be taught to the person will eventually be tested by the person's life - and these surface beliefs that do not agree with the person's fundamental beliefs will fall away.

Well, to some extent, all beliefs are true, and all beliefs are false. When you hold a belief, it is true, because your reality is going to reflect that "truth" that you hold.

However, all beliefs are also false, because they are beliefs in concepts. Therefore, your beliefs generally won't fully explain everything in the world. Sometimes you can still make it fit if you are especially dedicated to your beliefs, but other times you may have to reevaluate how your beliefs are working for you.

They don't necessarily need to be tested. Those who aren't open to their beliefs being changed or dropped will dismiss anything that doesn't fit them. This is why religious people tend to reject anything outside of their religion, or that doesn't fit the dogma of their faith.

The world will tend to take on the light of your beliefs. If you believe in God, you will see His hand in everything. If you are an atheist, you will tend to see things as random and without any divinely-created order. The world will tend to prove your beliefs.

However, the world will bring suffering, if you are engrossed in beliefs and concepts, and in particular in your belief of separation. It isn't the world intrinsically that brings suffering, but your relation with the whorl that does. You expect one thing, and the world brings you another.

Sadly enough, it is often because of your beliefs that such suffering results. "Money just won't come into my life" will result in a world that shows you lack. "I'm not deserving of a relationship" will reflect a world that shows you that no one will be in a meaningful relationship with you.

Even more subtle, though, are the "shoulds." "Bob shouldn't be angry with me" results in suffering when Bob seems to be angry with you. "My house should always be clean" results in suffering when your house isn't clean.

So the world is great at showing you the limitation of your beliefs. If they lead to suffering, and you don't want to suffer, then obviously something is wrong, and it isn't the world. To call it wrong is just another belief.

So if suffering comes up, you can either blame the world, which draws you deeper into it and into more suffering, or you can look within at why you are choosing to suffer, and take responsibility for creating that problem. You can let things be without needing to change them. This brings you into greater truth and greater happiness.

That is the reason for my quote in my signature:

Your world can either be the greatest teacher or the greatest temptress into deeper illusion. The choice is yours. It will show you exactly what you need to see in every moment.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I think it's the other way round--How much does life experience shape beliefs?

In Scott Peck's book "The Road Less Travelled", he relates the stories of two different individuals that he knows.

Both individuals had extremely similar life experiences, as children. Both men, as young boys, lost their respective mother to cancers; struggled with poverty; had quite dysfunctional fathers etc etc.

One of these individuals grew up to be extremely dysfunctional, plagued by low self-esteem, couldn't form healthy relationships, basically was a big mess (he had come to Scott Peck for treatment - Scott was a psychiatrist).

The other individual became an exceedingly healthy individual (from a psychology perspective) - happily married, good father, became an outstanding doctor, a cancer specialist, who also contributed to the community through other ways, helping the underprivileged.

Scott Peck cited this as a striking example of how the same sort of experiences can trigger off very different beliefs.

One individual had formed beliefs about his lack of self-worth and the harshness of life - from his difficult family life in his early years.

The other individual - whose family life was difficult in the same ways - formed beliefs about the importance of family; and of helping others in difficult circumstances (since he had been there himself before), and having compassion for the sick (specifically cancer patients, since his mother had died from it).

So yes, I would say that life experience shapes beliefs. But how it shapes the beliefs - ahhh, that is the interesting question.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Experience is completely rooted in belief.

I agree with that. And beliefs start being formed very, very early in life. Situations are interpreted by an unformed mind and only slowly take shape, simultaneously as the mind takes shape (this is my experience having done some very deep memory and healing work with beliefs).

There are some things that seem to be universal defaults in experience, things like gravity, but even things like light and dark are not universal (some people are born profoundly blind, for example).

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

This has many layers of truth, as everything does, so it is difficult to answer.

Again, I agree. And it's not something that easily lends itself to language (which is a clumsy tool) or even to metaphor.

One thing I am seeing/understanding more and more is that the fewer the attachments to material ideas, thoughts, beliefs, etc., that is, the more "awareness" there is (for lack of a better term; these words are really clumsy, but that's the best I can do), the less bound by beliefs, thoughts, concepts, etc. Which makes sense, really. No attachment, no binding. The fewer the limitations, the greater the freedom, so to speak.

[Tanemon]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

However, the world will bring suffering, if you are engrossed in beliefs and concepts, and in particular in your belief of separation. It isn't the world intrinsically that brings suffering, but your relation with the whorl that does. You expect one thing, and the world brings you another.

Sadly enough, it is often because of your beliefs that such suffering results. "Money just won't come into my life" will result in a world that shows you lack. "I'm not deserving of a relationship" will reflect a world that shows you that no one will be in a meaningful relationship with you.

This is interesting. Thanks for discussing it. You are citing happiness as an important indicator.

Okay, this has made me think of a particular case that I want to bring up. I worked in a new age book store, some years ago now. One of the books the store carried had been published back in the 1980s, I think. The title was Do What You Like, the Money Will Follow. The book asserted that a person is better off to do what he or she loves in life, rather than what society (or parents, or "wise" friends) are pointing out to be the path for success (money, status, security). The author strongly advised finding what makes you happy to do and then pursuing that as your career path.

To many people who shop for new-age books, this was both an attractive book title and an attractive philosophy of work and career.

However, the store staff (my colleagues) generally had enough experience of living - enough experience of work and money management, and general life experience - that they regarded the philosophy of the book as pretty iffy. They knew from experience that maybe what an individual liked best to do was to make music, to do woodworking, to go kayaking, to have sex, or whatever else. The store staff people knew that often these activities did not result, for them, in a good income or security, or enough personal recognition.

So then there is dissonance. It stems from there being happiness on the level of the activity that one enjoys, but unhappiness on the level of one's life, overall, not working out so well. Okay, then. To support the music, woodworking, kayaking, or sex that they enjoyed, the person might become a taxi driver, or work in a liquor-sales shop, or sell cars... something which brought better income. Yet the person may not have really enjoyed this more lucrative occupation.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Even more subtle, though, are the "shoulds." "Bob shouldn't be angry with me" results in suffering when Bob seems to be angry with you. "My house should always be clean" results in suffering when your house isn't clean.

So the world is great at showing you the limitation of your beliefs. If they lead to suffering, and you don't want to suffer, then obviously something is wrong, and it isn't the world. To call it wrong is just another belief.

So if suffering comes up, you can either blame the world, which draws you deeper into it and into more suffering, or you can look within at why you are choosing to suffer, and take responsibility for creating that problem. You can let things be without needing to change them. This brings you into greater truth and greater happiness.

And still, for most people the circumstances of life (such as needing to make a living) require decisions about how to spend one's time. A course of action. On that level, it seems you can't just "let it be" - because doing nothing, if that's what you enjoy, probably will not support you.

I agree that we each want to be happy.

So you will no doubt be guided by something - your reason (which can only work with your beliefs about life), or your intuition perhaps. Or, in some fortunate cases, serendipity may step in and through a delightful synchronicity, a positive path opens up for you.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Experience is completely rooted in belief.

Would you suggest, then, that I must have believed something in particular, just to have been born to the family/circumstances that I was?

Where did those beliefs come from? When did those arise? Do we start believing things from the moment of birth, or while still in the womb?

I can understand, and have even witnessed the effects of beliefs upon experience. But, I have also witnessed the effects of experience upon beliefs. Hence, that experience is completely rooted in belief is a hard sell for me. I'd simply rather get straight to pure knowledge of myself, than to "believe" anything about anything. Beliefs, to me, are delusional to begin with.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Tanemon

So then there is dissonance. It stems from there being happiness on the level of the activity that one enjoys, but unhappiness on the level of one's life, overall, not working out so well. Okay, then. To support the music, woodworking, kayaking, or sex that they enjoyed, the person might become a taxi driver, or work in a liquor-sales shop, or sell cars... something which brought better income. Yet the person may not have really enjoyed this more lucrative occupation.

Oh, one more thing.

You may enjoy doing a certain thing .... until you have to do it for money. Then suddenly the fun of it fades away.

For some people, some hobbies are best left as hobbies.

[Orca]

I don't see this as an either-or. It's both. However, I do tend to feel that experiences come first, and then there is a choice in terms of what to believe or conclude as a result of those experiences. The mind tries to make sense of something that happened, and comes up with a belief to explain it.

A lot of things simply cannot be understood until they are personally experienced (ie, what it's like to have a serious illness, or be a multi billionare, etc). The knowing of having had that experience occurs. Then the belief of what and how and why it happened sets in after that, to make sense of it all (ie, bad things shouldn't happen to good people, God rewards good people with money, etc). You can also choose to believe something, like a religion, and then of course everything you see after that will tend to confirm what you already think should happen.

Both are true. I just tend to favor the personal experience and knowing as the driver of everything first. I think people can choose what they want to believe, if it helps their lives to make more sense. That is why people switch religions and belief systems. Things just seem to make more sense that way, and humans have a need to have things make sense. Once you believe something, it feels "true" and there is a certain relaxing into life. It doesn't matter if it is delusional or really true or not to anyone else. The belief serves a purpose. It helps give a sense of safety and order in a chaotic, disorderly world.

Just my .02.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Tanemon

Okay, this has made me think of a particular case that I want to bring up. I worked in a new age book store, some years ago now. One of the books the store carried had been published back in the 1980s, I think. The title was Do What You Like, the Money Will Follow. The book asserted that a person is better off to do what he or she loves in life, rather than what society (or parents, or "wise" friends) are pointing out to be the path for success (money, status, security). The author strongly advised finding what makes you happy to do and then pursuing that as your career path.

To many people who shop for new-age books, this was both an attractive book title and an attractive philosophy of work and career.

However, the store staff (my colleagues) generally had enough experience of living - enough experience of work and money management, and general life experience - that they regarded the philosophy of the book as pretty iffy. They knew from experience that maybe what an individual liked best to do was to make music, to do woodworking, to go kayaking, to have sex, or whatever else. The store staff people knew that often these activities did not result, for them, in a good income or security, or enough personal recognition.

So then there is dissonance. It stems from there being happiness on the level of the activity that one enjoys, but unhappiness on the level of one's life, overall, not working out so well. Okay, then. To support the music, woodworking, kayaking, or sex that they enjoyed, the person might become a taxi driver, or work in a liquor-sales shop, or sell cars... something which brought better income. Yet the person may not have really enjoyed this more lucrative occupation.

Was it from "life experience," or were they told as children that they had to choose a lucrative career, or else they could not be successful? And did these beliefs drive their future experiences proving this to be true?

I think the reason it doesn't work for a lot of people is because they still have this ingrained belief that they have to work hard at something they don't enjoy in order to make money. So they might externally believe something like this, that they can make money at anything, but yet their deeper root beliefs are causing them to fail again and again. It's not just a matter of do what you like; you have to believe it will actually work for you.

Originally Posted by Tanemon

And still, for most people the circumstances of life (such as needing to make a living) require decisions about how to spend one's time. A course of action. On that level, it seems you can't just "let it be" - because doing nothing, if that's what you enjoy, probably will not support you.

I agree that we each want to be happy.

So you will no doubt be guided by something - your reason (which can only work with your beliefs about life), or your intuition perhaps. Or, in some fortunate cases, serendipity may step in and through a delightful synchronicity, a positive path opens up for you.

This sounds like some limiting beliefs. You have to act, you are saying. Doing nothing will lead nowhere. Further, if you don't make a decision, everything will fall apart.

In the book Autobiography of a Yogi, there's a great example of trusting in God. Yogananda and a friend were staying with Yogananda's brother, if I remember correctly. They had a debate about surrender to God, and whether you really have to do anything, or whether God will take care of everything.

Anyway, the brother said that he would give them only enough money for a train ticket to another city. The condition was that they must take the train, not miss a meal, and make it back to the house by midnight. They were given no additional money.

Anyway, they didn't "choose" anything. They just did what seems natural at the moment. But throughout the day, they missed not a single meal, were able to get a return train ticket and made it back by midnight. And in the process they did a lot of amazing things.

You don't have to choose anything. Really, there's debate about whether you are really able to choose anything. There are apparently scientific studies that have measured the decision-making process in the brain. If a person is given two objects, and they must choose one to pick up, they have realized that the brain actually knows which one they will pick up before the person consciously chooses. So choice may only be an illusion.

Ego has a fear that it has to control things, or else everything will fall apart. That's simply not true. Ego really gets in the way of perfection.

[Tanemon]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

In the book Autobiography of a Yogi, there's a great example of trusting in God. Yogananda and a friend were staying with Yogananda's brother, if I remember correctly. They had a debate about surrender to God, and whether you really have to do anything, or whether God will take care of everything.

Anyway, the brother said that he would give them only enough money for a train ticket to another city. The condition was that they must take the train, not miss a meal, and make it back to the house by midnight. They were given no additional money.

Anyway, they didn't "choose" anything. They just did what seems natural at the moment. But throughout the day, they missed not a single meal, were able to get a return train ticket and made it back by midnight. And in the process they did a lot of amazing things.

Yes, interesting story. I remember it from the book.

Yet Yogananda had a sense of dedication from early childhood - he even tells of childhood memories and persistent thoughts linking him to "the yogis of the Himalayas". He told his guru that he knew he wouldn't be happy if he got married (i.e., he did not feel he had a destiny as a householder). He had no inclinations to live any usual sort of "life in the world", so to speak.

Everybody is unique in certain ways. Yogananda was not only an individual, but a highly evolved one who wanted to be a swami and a monk.

[sonde]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I can understand, and have even witnessed the effects of beliefs upon experience. But, I have also witnessed the effects of experience upon beliefs. Hence, that experience is completely rooted in belief is a hard sell for me. I'd simply rather get straight to pure knowledge of myself, than to "believe" anything about anything. Beliefs, to me, are delusional to begin with.

In that type of experience, what was the effect upon the belief? Was it the experience of a belief doing something?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by sonde

In that type of experience, what was the effect upon the belief? Was it the experience of a belief doing something?

Experiences in infancy and childhood is an example of the effects of experience upon belief.

I was born and raised in a fatherless home until I was about 10. Until then, because there was no leading male role model in the house, I believed that it was my role to fill that void, to be the "man of the house". Of course, this was before I even understood what that meant. If there had been a father in the house, or even a father figure, I'm sure that there would have adoption of such a belief.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Tanemon

Yes, interesting story. I remember it from the book.

Yet Yogananda had a sense of dedication from early childhood - he even tells of childhood memories and persistent thoughts linking him to "the yogis of the Himalayas". He told his guru that he knew he wouldn't be happy if he got married (i.e., he did not feel he had a destiny as a householder). He had no inclinations to live any usual sort of "life in the world", so to speak.

Everybody is unique in certain ways. Yogananda was not only an individual, but a highly evolved one who wanted to be a swami and a monk.

So what are you saying? That only "highly evolved individuals" can have such a trust in God?

I've had that kind of trust throughout my life, because it has proven itself to be true again and again. Things have just worked out for me when they needed to. How evolved I might be is up for debate.

I also thought once that I might be a swami, or lead a religious life as a renunciate. I did not feel comfortable with the idea of married life. Yet now I find myself married, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. i did warn her that my life would be rather different, so that I'd have somewhat the best of both worlds—balance I suppose you could say. I am on a spiritual path, and no one and nothing will get in the way of that, so that was a discussion we had pretty early on.

Anyway, I'm not sure what your point was with that statement, so I'd appreciate if you could clarify.

[sonde]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Experiences in infancy and childhood is an example of the effects of experience upon belief.

I was born and raised in a fatherless home until I was about 10. Until then, because there was no leading male role model in the house, I believed that it was my role to fill that void, to be the "man of the house". Of course, this was before I even understood what that meant. If there had been a father in the house, or even a father figure, I'm sure that there would have adoption of such a belief.

So before that belief arose in the void there was no such experience?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by sonde

So before that belief arose in the void there was no such experience?

The experience was one of fatherlessness, which led to the belief.

[sonde]

Originally Posted by Beingist

The experience was one of fatherlessness, which led to the belief.

But I presume you were not really fatherless ; you experienced a fatherless thought, which led to more thought...

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by sonde

But I presume you were not really fatherless ; you experienced a fatherless thought, which led to more thought...

Uh, what?

No, my father, mostly in hospitals, was a schizophrenic who died when I was two.

Are you suggesting that, as an infant, I thought my father into illness and death with a belief in fatherlessness?

[sonde]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Are you suggesting that, as an infant, I thought my father into illness and death with a belief in fatherlessness?

No. Only that you had a father to the extent that sperm came from him. I am sorry about your loss.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by sonde

No. Only that you had a father to the extent that sperm came from him.

Oh. Okay, well, that certainly wasn't going through my mind either at 5.

[Tanemon]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

So what are you saying? That only "highly evolved individuals" can have such a trust in God?

Yeah, in a way. I'm of the opinion that if an incarnating soul is a highly evolved soul, then deep trust in God is natural to that individual. The individual can feel that trust without having to work hard at it... there is less purification and healing to do.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I've had that kind of trust throughout my life, because it has proven itself to be true again and again. Things have just worked out for me when they needed to. How evolved I might be is up for debate.

I also thought once that I might be a swami, or lead a religious life as a renunciate. I did not feel comfortable with the idea of married life. Yet now I find myself married, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. i did warn her that my life would be rather different, so that I'd have somewhat the best of both worlds—balance I suppose you could say. I am on a spiritual path, and no one and nothing will get in the way of that, so that was a discussion we had pretty early on.

That is admirable.

I've known many people of all sorts. A high percentage of people born in modern western countries have keen desires to acquire material things, to live with a lot of creature comforts, to have distractions from boredom, to have a thrilling and varied sex life, to experience novelty through a lot of travel, to feel better or more important than a lot of other people, and (in the case of some people) to have a lot of recognition, to be famous.

These are, in my estimation, things that get in the way of the simple and pure states of consciousness where God is felt or actualized.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Tanemon

Yeah, in a way. I'm of the opinion that if an incarnating soul is a highly evolved soul, then deep trust in God is natural to that individual. The individual can feel that trust without having to work hard at it... there is less purification and healing to do.

Can you really know the truth of that statement? Is it preventing you from trusting in God yourself, because perhaps you do not see yourself as a "highly evolved" soul?

What would happen if you simply let go of having to control things, or of things having to be a certain way?

Originally Posted by Tanemon

That is admirable.

I've known many people of all sorts. A high percentage of people born in modern western countries have keen desires to acquire material things, to live with a lot of creature comforts, to have distractions from boredom, to have a thrilling and varied sex life, to experience novelty through a lot of travel, to feel better or more important than a lot of other people, and (in the case of some people) to have a lot of recognition, to be famous.

These are, in my estimation, things that get in the way of the simple and pure states of consciousness where God is felt or actualized.

Mind always gets in the way of the pure states of consciousness.

[Tanemon]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Can you really know the truth of that statement? Is it preventing you from trusting in God yourself, because perhaps you do not see yourself as a "highly evolved" soul?

What would happen if you simply let go of having to control things, or of things having to be a certain way?

Thanks for your response.

I come to the Pavlina forums not for debate but for a different sort of interchange with people - kind of a massage. Not a physical massage but one on the level of understanding or wisdom.

[guthrio]

Tanemon,

Belief is what we choose to tell OURSELVES is true about Reality until we experience what IS true regardless what we believe. If one KNOWS what is True, one will be able to see what is false AND what is True. If one believes what is false, one will only be able to SEE what is false.....until one KNOWS what is True.

The delta between what shapes life experience and what does not....is not BELIEF. It is experiencing Truth....regardless of belief.

Consider that one's life experience really CANNOT BE BASED on anything as malleable as one's belief OR dis-belief, in religion, or philosophy, or theories.....

Why ?.....Our beliefs are ALWAYS changing....because WE change them.

Why base one's life experience upon ever-changing beliefs we tell ourselves are true?.....instead of upon experiences that ARE true? Do you see ??

Consider the subject of miracles....

If we thought about the subject of miracles carefully, rationally, and truthfully, the ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION we could come to is that miracles are not only possible, but are actually the NORM of Reality.

The NORM OF REALITY ?? One may legitimately ask, if this is the norm, WHY ARE MIRACLES SO RARE ?? The answer is, because WE HAVE TOLD OURSELVES that these experiences are only impossible, improbable, exceptional, RARE occurrences that are beyond the reach and understanding of "mortal man".

BUT.....the truth about the "reach" of our very understanding of REALITY is that each and every advancement has come about AFTER WE DISCOVERED WHAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRUE, AND WAITING FOR US TO DISCOVER IT....

...even when the tightly held ideas WE THOUGHT WERE TRUE were REALLY based on false information and dogma, WHICH virtually everyone believed, transmitted, and acted upon AS IF TRUE .....that is, until others, following their OWN ideas came along, who had quantifiable, repeatable, verifiable evidence based on a DIFFERENT set of ideas that turned the paradigm of established scientific or religious consensus on its head !!

Can there be any truer indictment of the history of mankind’s exploration and discovery of both scientific and religious Truth than to acknowledge that it is replete with examples of this or that scientist or religious prelate pontificating that this or that phenomena is impossible ???

Do the Heavens still rotate around the Earth? Not after Copernicus, Kepler, and Galileo. Are time and space separate from one another? Not after Einstein. Did you get your vaccines this year? Thanks to Pasteur you did. Is the Earth still flat? Ask Erikson, Columbus or Magellan for the answer. Do you have to study your science homework or read the scriptures of whatever faith you profess in the dark? Not after a little help from Gutenburg and Edison. You can readily see the impact of individuals with their OWN ideas helping other individuals change THEIR ideas about these things, which eventually results in the civilization changing, right?

The Principles of Life uncovered by scientists that govern the relationship between mass, gravity, time, and the curvature of space to produce black holes have been in perfect operation just as eternally before their discovery of those principles as is the frequency upon which you enjoy listening to your favorite music; indeed, existent ever since the Universe cooled it into resonance along with the infinite gradations of frequency radiating beside it. These principles HAD to have been in operation just as perfectly BEFORE we discovered how to harness them into technology as they presently operate now. Or we would not be able to continue to utilize them for our technology today, much less build them into technological improvements tomorrow!

What we call miracles is NOT contravention of science. The accomplishment of miracles comes from a knowledge base that NEITHER SCIENCE NOR RELIGION has yet incorporated into its paradigm of "what is possible", EXCEPT for "special circumstances" that THEY determine are legitimate. Such a stance is ripe for refutation by verifiable, repeatable, quantifiable evidence, as I mentioned before. IT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS THAT the accomplishment of miracles is based on immutable principles, too. And once you discover them in yourself (and they ARE waiting for you to do so) just as scientists have been "discovering" new ways of looking at the Universe, we, too will be able to utilize Spiritual principles to accomplish the very same things. Understand, though, that you must scientifically uncover, know, operate, and practice the correct principles within the "laboratory" of YOURSELF! Exactly as any scientist learns to apply the principles of mathematics or any other scientific discipline.

Whether scientists, theologians, philosophers, or laypersons, we “see” through our ideas.

"Perfection does not come from projecting our own ideas but from awakening to the knowledge that it is already the established order of things.", as indicated in the reference.

....don't believe me? Try MAKING 2+2=5. Doesn't work, does it? We cannot even MAKE 2+2=4. 2+2=4, whether you sum the equation correctly or NOT ! WHY ??

Because neither Truth NOR Perfection can change OR be changed. ALL the principles of Life operate that way, perfectly, without variation, deviation, or attenuation for anyone, at anytime, anywhere !! We can ONLY accept its perfect operation, because we cannot change Truth.

If Perfection is ALREADY the established order of things, AND is PLAINLY EVIDENT IN ALL THE PRINCIPLES OF LIFE, WHY HAVEN'T WE KNOWN THIS ??

BECAUSE WE ALL are free to choose to believe that 2+2=5 for ETERNITY until we have acquired FOR OURSELVES the necessary knowledge of the immutable principle that correctly sums the answer.

Again, belief is what we choose to tell OURSELVES is true about Reality until we experience what IS true regardless what we believe. Beliefs can be predicated upon false perceptions (lies) propped up to masquerade as Truth.

If one considers that the words "limitations" and "grasp" are simply metaphors for "beliefs", then it becomes transparently obvious that transcending "limitations" and exceeding "grasp" is really an exercise in perceiving Reality in its TRUE dimensions.....and applying the understanding therefrom accordingly.

The "belief" in limitation must then be seen to be SELF-IMPOSED......and if self-imposed....

....IT MUST BE SELF-REMOVED !!

Some call the it the scientific search for answers to the riddles of the Universe.

Some call the resultant experiences of discovery bordering on the "miraculous".

Some call it "Thou shalt know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free...."

Whatever you call it, it is the Creator's loving gift of His Own Power waiting to be discovered and used by His beloved progeny.....us.

Hope this helps....

[Tanemon]

Originally Posted by guthrio

IT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS THAT the accomplishment of miracles is based on immutable principles, too. And once you discover them in yourself (and they ARE waiting for you to do so) just as scientists have been "discovering" new ways of looking at the Universe, we, too will be able to utilize Spiritual principles to accomplish the very same things. Understand, though, that you must scientifically uncover, know, operate, and practice the correct principles within the "laboratory" of YOURSELF! Exactly as any scientist learns to apply the principles of mathematics or any other scientific discipline.

Whether scientists, theologians, philosophers, or laypersons, we “see” through our ideas.

"Perfection does not come from projecting our own ideas but from awakening to the knowledge that it is already the established order of things."

Yeah, I agree with this. Though it seems that in the realm of intuition and some kinds of spiritual/energetic accomplishment, things often proceed on the basis of gaining "a feel" for actualities or ways of working, rather than apprehending concepts (or maybe principles ).

Originally Posted by guthrio

Again, belief is what we choose to tell OURSELVES is true about Reality until we experience what IS true regardless what we believe. Beliefs can be predicated upon false perceptions (lies) propped up to masquerade as Truth.

If one considers that the words "limitations" and "grasp" are simply metaphors for "beliefs", then it becomes transparently obvious that transcending "limitations" and exceeding "grasp" is really an exercise in perceiving Reality in its TRUE dimensions.....and applying the understanding therefrom accordingly.

The "belief" in limitation must then be seen to be SELF-IMPOSED......and if self-imposed....

....IT MUST BE SELF-REMOVED !!

I can agree. You know, maybe it will be helpful to explain why I started this thread. Somebody, on another thread, wrote the following to me:

What you see in your reality is intrinsically dependent on your beliefs and definitions about it. We often have many things backwards on this planet, like for example saying "seeing is believing", when it is actually "believing is seeing".

I know for myself, there have been things I've experienced that do not fit with standard or 'current scientific' beliefs. They have not even seemed fit with what I, personally, believed at the time I experienced them.

On the other hand, I have no doubt that my experience and capabilities may be limited by certain conscious or unconscious beliefs that I currently have.