The Paradox of Teaching

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Whether Osho 'nails it' on every subject ever to be discussed is still not what I'm addressing with you. I understand you have great interest in what you see as 'the path out of the ego' and everything I'm communicating with you is in regards to this interest. I can assure you there is no irritation with you or your posts.

There's only two important things to do in life....one is to take care of your body. The second is to make whole your mind.

I need a job or some source of support to pay for all the things my body needs.

I need a profound source of perspective to untangle my mind.

The rest is a waste of braincells that we can do in life.

And to see the path and not share it is evil.

So if that makes me a one-trick pony, that's me.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I need a profound source of perspective to untangle my mind.

Who is that is making this statement?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Who is that is making this statement?

The one that can see my tangled mind, my consciousness...The "watcher".

If you can see that the mind gets tangled up, then who cares about the "who" questions? I'm more interested in how to untangle it.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Who is that is making this statement?

The "who" will be realized when the mind is untangled....the "who" will be what's leftover once the illusions of self vanish.

So instead of creating a theology of the "who", lets walk the path instead of eliminating what is false in "self"

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The one that can see my tangled mind, my consciousness...The "watcher".

Right. Is the watcher tangled as well or is it clearly safe, untangled and at peace?

Originally Posted by RonSouther

If you can see that the mind gets tangled up, then who cares about the "who" questions? I'm more interested in how to untangle it.

Because the "who" is the only question that actually matters in relation to the 'tangling' you believe you are trying to escape. The "how" questions are what keeps you believing you are perpetually trying to escape a perceived problem.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

So instead of creating a theology of the "who", lets walk the path instead of eliminating what is false in "self"

There is no path to walk. That's what everyone is trying to say, I think. When you realize that, then enlightenment is now, and truth is now.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Right. Is the watcher tangled as well or is it clearly safe, untangled and at peace?

Because the "who" is the only question that actually matters in relation to the 'tangling' you believe you are trying to escape. The "how" questions are what keeps you believing you are perpetually trying to escape a perceived problem.

That's where we split...to me, your "who" focus is intellectual...trying to sort out this from that logically. It doesn't help me.

The process of eliminating my beliefs has been transformational for me. I learned the how process and I'm living the process daily. It's not a theory to me. It's exactly the process of debunking Santa Claus and requires someone exceptionally profound to trip up your beliefs until you realize how false they are. You need someone that can hold the mirror up from unlimited angles.

I learned the how. It isn't mental masturbation. It's called "doubt" using your natural qualities to detect bullcrap and to have the courage to take the heat from those that don't "see".

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The "who" will be realized when the mind is untangled....the "who" will be what's leftover once the illusions of self vanish.

How do you know what you perceive to have not yet happened for you? These are thoughts arising in a construct referred to as 'the mind' which have no inherent truth or power beyond your identification and belief in them. The illusions of the self lose their power when it is clearly noticed that any and all problems, including untangling the mind is of and from the mind itself.

Originally Posted by RonSouther

So instead of creating a theology of the "who", lets walk the path instead of eliminating what is false in "self"

Again, all paths are imaginary although not any less real or unreal to the one believing they are walking and experiencing them. What I am saying to you is that you are and always have been home. To see this clearly collapses the imagined path along with the perceived need to untangle something that can not tangle or control you in any way unless you believe it can.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

There is no path to walk. That's what everyone is trying to say, I think. When you realize that, then enlightenment is now, and truth is now.

Right, the "path" is really a 180 degree turn (which is to simply see the paradox which contains the 180 degree turn) as truth is here but metaphorically immediately behind me.

It's all the entanglements that make it seem like a path...the path is illusionary as are the entanglements. Or the path is whatever it takes to see totally that I am not my mind and the path are the experiences of courage I need and of failure I need to test my new awareness, like letting go of jealousy and seeing that everything is not only ok, but better.

I have had the experience of what I call my world flipping right side up, yet I have been pulled upside down, but with awareness which allows me to correct my mistake.

I could say that the path is one of seeing how my habitual thinking (conditionings) once again pulled me away from "me" and that once again I have to pull myself back to center and look for more perspective in that area.

In the end, I can see where a roar of laughter will come that "there wasn't any path! All I had to do is just be me!". I know this because everytime I face a fear and find out the sky didn't fall, I look back as think "why was I ever scared to begin with?!!!???".

So I got a really strong sense from life experiences and tremendous revelations that I'm on the right "path". That I have no doubt. The results in my life are speaking for themselves.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

How do you know what you perceive to have not yet happened for you? These are thoughts arising in a construct referred to as 'the mind' which have no inherent truth or power beyond your identification and belief in them. The illusions of the self lose their power when it is clearly noticed that any and all problems, including untangling the mind is of and from the mind itself.

Again, all paths are imaginary although not any less real or unreal to the one believing they are walking and experiencing them. What I am saying to you is that you are and always have been home. To see this clearly collapses the imagined path along with the perceived need to untangle something that can not tangle or control you in any way unless you believe it can.

In spite of not successfully being able to relate the quality of my transformation, it is real and those that have experienced something similar will recognize it in me. That's the only way I stand a chance at conveying my experiences to another.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

That's where we split...to me, your "who" focus is intellectual...trying to sort out this from that logically. It doesn't help me.

The process of eliminating my beliefs has been transformational for me. I learned the how process and I'm living the process daily. It's not a theory to me. It's exactly the process of debunking Santa Claus and requires someone exceptionally profound to trip up your beliefs until you realize how false they are. You need someone that can hold the mirror up from unlimited angles.

I learned the how. It isn't mental masturbation. It's called "doubt" using your natural qualities to detect bullcrap and to have the courage to take the heat from those that don't "see".

That's fine, I'm not suggesting you do or don't do anything or discard doubt. You mentioned the watcher that can see the tangled mind. Again, is the watcher tangled as well or is it clearly safe, untangled and at peace?

[pianoperformer]

Ron, you talk so much about letting go of false beliefs. What if this whole thing, this whole idea of a self being transformed into something greater, were all false? Just think about it, even if the mind doesn't like the idea.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

That's fine, I'm not suggesting you do or don't do anything or discard doubt. You mentioned the watcher that can see the tangled mind. Again, is the watcher tangled as well or is it clearly safe, untangled and at peace?

The mirror simply reflects.....

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Ron, you talk so much about letting go of false beliefs. What if this whole thing, this whole idea of a self being transformed into something greater, were all false? Just think about it, even if the mind doesn't like the idea.

My life is improving, my fears are decreasing.

"What if" thinking is what the mind does. Life isn't what if thinking. Life is living and when mistakes are made, to learn from them.

Mental masturbation will keep us stuck in a theology or ideology mindset that is afraid to live because it is afraid to fail because failure hurts the ego.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

That's where we split...to me, your "who" focus is intellectual...trying to sort out this from that logically. It doesn't help me.

The process of eliminating my beliefs has been transformational for me. I learned the how process and I'm living the process daily. It's not a theory to me. It's exactly the process of debunking Santa Claus and requires someone exceptionally profound to trip up your beliefs until you realize how false they are. You need someone that can hold the mirror up from unlimited angles.

I learned the how. It isn't mental masturbation. It's called "doubt" using your natural qualities to detect bullcrap and to have the courage to take the heat from those that don't "see".

Folks here have been trying to "trip up your beliefs" since you arrived, and there hasn't been an inkling of interest. Osho is safe because he won't talk back or correct your misperceptions, which is the value of a 'live mirror'. I do understand you believe you are surrounded by clueless fools and intellectuals, but what if you're wrong?

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

My life is improving, my fears are decreasing.

"What if" thinking is what the mind does. Life isn't what if thinking. Life is living and when mistakes are made, to learn from them.

Mental masturbation will keep us stuck in a theology or ideology mindset that is afraid to live because it is afraid to fail because failure hurts the ego.

Actually, this is all about living what is. It is about dropping all theology, and moving beyond all fears and any ego. It sounds like you have a lot of preconceived notions, so it is affecting your perception of what is being said. That is a product of mind, of course.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

My life is improving, my fears are decreasing.

"What if" thinking is what the mind does. Life isn't what if thinking. Life is living and when mistakes are made, to learn from them.

Mental masturbation will keep us stuck in a theology or ideology mindset that is afraid to live because it is afraid to fail because failure hurts the ego.

Is it that Osho doesn't tell you there isn't a self to be transformed, or is it that you don't hear it?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Folks here have been trying to "trip up your beliefs" since you arrived, and there hasn't been an inkling of interest. Osho is safe because he won't talk back or correct your misperceptions, which is the value of a 'live mirror'. I do understand you believe you are surrounded by clueless fools and intellectuals, but what if you're wrong?

You can trip up beliefs but you can't make me doubt my experiences.

I am a pilot. This is like asking me "what if your wrong, that you really don't know how to fly?". You won't be able to trip me up on 18,000 hours of flying experience.

The same is true for my journey to truth, to self. I'm speaking from my experiences and not from beliefs. You can't trip me up. What happens is that I get more clarity but no "ut-oh" moments of finding out the path or the method is wrong. The method continues to prove to be right.

The method is obvious.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Is it that Osho doesn't tell you there isn't a self to be transformed, or is it that you don't hear it?

The transformation is the shift from a mind centered life to a heart centered life where the mind is the servant and not the master. That social conditionings are no longer going to tell me when to "love", no longer going to define me. It means I am not longer reacting to situations but responding.

Logic is a terrible master.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

You can trip up beliefs but you can't make me doubt my experiences.

I am a pilot. This is like asking me "what if your wrong, that you really don't know how to fly?". You won't be able to trip me up on 18,000 hours of flying experience.

The same is true for my journey to truth, to self. I'm speaking from my experiences and not from beliefs. You can't trip me up. What happens is that I get more clarity but no "ut-oh" moments of finding out the path or the method is wrong. The method continues to prove to be right.

The method is obvious.

Nobody's actually saying the method or path is wrong. Haven't I talked about your success repeatedly? "More clarity" is what we're talking about, but if you reflect a bit you'll see that clarity always comes from some form of letting go, so you can't expect to hold onto everything you've learned as you gain more clarity. At the risk of getting myself into trouble again, I used to say, 'Grasp your truths lightly so as to leave room in the palm of the hand for God'.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

You can trip up beliefs but you can't make me doubt my experiences.

I am a pilot. This is like asking me "what if your wrong, that you really don't know how to fly?". You won't be able to trip me up on 18,000 hours of flying experience.

The same is true for my journey to truth, to self. I'm speaking from my experiences and not from beliefs. You can't trip me up. What happens is that I get more clarity but no "ut-oh" moments of finding out the path or the method is wrong. The method continues to prove to be right.

The method is obvious.

As far as doubting your experiences, I suggest that's precisely how you got to where you are.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The transformation is the shift from a mind centered life to a heart centered life where the mind is the servant and not the master. That social conditionings are no longer going to tell me when to "love", no longer going to define me. It means I am not longer reacting to situations but responding.



Logic is a terrible master.

Does anyone else know if Osho teaches there is no separate, volitional person? Nobody living their own life?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The mirror simply reflects.....

I'm not sure what you're trying to say but this is as straightforward as it gets. It's either yes, no or you can't tell.

Again, for a third time, Is the watcher tangled as well or is it clearly safe, untangled and at peace?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

In spite of not successfully being able to relate the quality of my transformation, it is real and those that have experienced something similar will recognize it in me. That's the only way I stand a chance at conveying my experiences to another.

Of course the experience is real. I'm not suggesting it never happened. I'm suggesting it is not what it seems to be and who you really are is not transforming and is not tangled up in anything, ever.

[pianoperformer]

Experience is not infallible. I attend a Catholic university, and it is full of Catholics who regularly have experiences validating their religion. Either they have the awareness of an all-powerful, awesome God, or they have the fear of hell, or they have a vision of Jesus or Mary, or they are attacked by demons and calling on the name of Jesus gets rid of them, etc. They had plenty of experiences that point out the truth of their religion.

So will you. Your experiences will point out the truth of your beliefs, or what you think to be the truth of your beliefs. I've never seen otherwise. That you experience what you believe doesn't surprise me in the least.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Experience is not infallible. I attend a Catholic university, and it is full of Catholics who regularly have experiences validating their religion. Either they have the awareness of an all-powerful, awesome God, or they have the fear of hell, or they have a vision of Jesus or Mary, or they are attacked by demons and calling on the name of Jesus gets rid of them, etc. They had plenty of experiences that point out the truth of their religion.

So will you. Your experiences will point out the truth of your beliefs, or what you think to be the truth of your beliefs. I've never seen otherwise. That you experience what you believe doesn't surprise me in the least.

Indeed.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Experience is not infallible. I attend a Catholic university, and it is full of Catholics who regularly have experiences validating their religion. Either they have the awareness of an all-powerful, awesome God, or they have the fear of hell, or they have a vision of Jesus or Mary, or they are attacked by demons and calling on the name of Jesus gets rid of them, etc. They had plenty of experiences that point out the truth of their religion.

So will you. Your experiences will point out the truth of your beliefs, or what you think to be the truth of your beliefs. I've never seen otherwise. That you experience what you believe doesn't surprise me in the least.

Yeah, just when we get comfy with the idea that concepts aren't true but experience is, then we find out experience isn't true either.

[nothuman]

This is a creepy area. Absolutely ( and pardon me for butting in ) experiences aren't infallable. Yet every experience is valid. If we are talking about seeking truth, well.......lets not go there.

It is only in venues like this that these things are exposed and the whole thing falls like a pack of cards.

Armed as we seem to be in the human experience with the ability to create unlimited realities and concepts.....can we still try and invalidate one or the other and if so based on what criterea?

I totally understand being at a point of noninvolvement as the above playing field gets very messy and when it is located for what it is ...well then I'm gonna leave it to quantum physics to sort out.

For the most of us ....you are either in the realms of creating realities based on knowledge and experience or you are outside of it and filling in time doing other things.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by nothuman

This is a creepy area. Absolutely ( and pardon me for butting in ) experiences aren't infallable. Yet every experience is valid. If we are talking about seeking truth, well.......lets not go there.

It is only in venues like this that these things are exposed and the whole thing falls like a pack of cards.

Armed as we seem to be in the human experience with the ability to create unlimited realities and concepts.....can we still try and invalidate one or the other and if so based on what criterea?

Since we can neither invalidate nor validate, it's not even about that. Clarity is about realization, which is neither conceptual nor experiential. As such, it's very difficult to talk about, and yet it's generally recognizable in the way folks talk about it regardless of what concepts or analogies are used.

[Merrick1]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Clarity is about realization, which is neither conceptual nor experiential. As such, it's very difficult to talk about...

Yes.

Merrick