Maguru's final curtain call.

[Maguru]

I have realized through a series of events where my pain and my anger is truly sourced and directed. At god.

I refused to believe in him. I deny him, am totally irreverent in my thinking of him. I threw him out of my life but still he comes back, usually through others. If god does exist then he surely sent archangel acarnum to prove his existence but until my anger and pain are satisfied, I am not convinced.

I make no secret of my hatred and disgust for everything he represents. "Wanker, Bastard. Lunatic. Despot. Uncaring. Picking favorites. Narcissus. Big-head. Wanting mini-me's. Controlling. Manipulating. Setting us up to fail. What kind of loving god are you?

I don't want to be like you. I don't want my children to be like you. I will fight you til the day I die and then some if you're around.

You know of my pain and it is real. This is your last chance with me. I prefer the devil on my side. I am a believer and I hate you to my very core.

Mystery and the unknowable aren't welcome here (and I know I'll regret saying that). Come to think of it, I'll probably regret saying all of this but I am willing to eat humble pie. I'm listening, god.

If you are listening, then you know I want to be wrong. I want you to exist. I want the game to be up. I want a new game and you can provide it, or I'm not playing anymore. Simple as that.

[mallie]

I have realized through a series of events where my pain and my anger is truly sourced and directed. At god.

I refused to believe in him. I deny him, am totally irreverent in my thinking of him. I threw him out of my life but still he comes back, usually through others. If god does exist then he surely sent archangel acarnum to prove his existence but until my anger and pain are satisfied, I am not convinced.

I make no secret of my hatred and disgust for everything he represents. "Wanker, Bastard. Lunatic. Despot. Uncaring. Picking favorites. Narcissus. Big-head. Wanting mini-me's. Controlling. Manipulating. Setting us up to fail. What kind of loving god are you?

I don't want to be like you. I don't want my children to be like you. I will fight you til the day I die and then some if you're around.

You know of my pain and it is real. This is your last chance with me. I prefer the devil on my side. I am a believer and I hate you to my very core.

Mystery and the unknowable aren't welcome here (and I know I'll regret saying that). Come to think of it, I'll probably regret saying all of this but I am willing to eat humble pie. I'm listening, god.

If you are listening, then you know I want to be wrong. I want you to exist. I want the game to be up. I want a new game and you can provide it, or I'm not playing anymore. Simple as that.

Hi Maguru,

I used to be just like you until I read a series that completely changed my views on God and it is called, "Conversations with God," by Neale Donald Walsch and here is the amazon link http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss...ix=conversatio

I used to even think that God enjoyed my suffering and pain of being stuck in conditions that I did not want to be in. I found out it was NOT God keeping me stuck, but it was myself and my thoughts and beliefs. Once I started changing my thinking and visualizing and doing affirmations and clearing out all the blocks and stuck energy - things started moving forward.

It was so bad that at the end of last year I was going to kill myself because I had had it with God and my crappy life. Things right now are turning around and I have also had a glimpse (psychically) of what next year is going to be like and it is going to be amazing. God is not against you, you are against yourself. You do need to heal all your anger and resentment you have against God - (this is what I also had to do) because not only will this block your good, but it will also make it hard to hear what God wants to tell you.

God does want to help you and help you to heal your life and believe it or not, HE is on your side. The desires you have are God- given desires and God wants you to have them and all you need to do is believe you can have them. God can also heal all your pain and suffering, but you need to be willing to let it go. I have had many a conversation with God where I called him every name in the book and was really pi**ed off and angry at him. I even went so far as to tell him, "if I could punch you in the face, I would you jack***. So I know exactly what you are going thru.

I have since made peace with God and told him I was really sorry I called him all those names and so forth and asked for forgiveness and release from all my hatred, anger, resentment, etc I had towards God.

[ButterflyWoman]

I went through years of this kind of angst. I literally cursed the day I was born, and I went back and forth with this stuff for the longest time. My usual wail was, "Well, if you're so great, why did you give me to THOSE idiots to raise?" or "Why did you let all that bad stuff happen to me?"

Over that now. It was a gradual process, took quite a while, partly because I struggled and resisted the process so much, but also because there was a lot of stuff to be untangled, untied, and undone.

And this may not be received well, so I hesitate to write it, but I feel strongly about it, so I'm going to do it, anyway. MOST of this is based in "victim mentality". All the "why didn't you save me" and "where were you" and "why are you such a bastard" and so on, it's all from the perspective of being a victim, of having been victimised, of continuing to be victimised.

Once that worldview is shed (and that's no easy task, but the first step is in recognising it), absolutely everything looks and feels different. It's like taking off purple-tinted glasses that you've worn all your life. It all looks different, in beautiful and surprising ways.

I do wish you healing and I hope you find what you seek.

[Merrick1]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I want a new game and you can provide it, or I'm not playing anymore. Simple as that.

What you're hating is not God but your representation of Him. It comes from the ego. When you truly get to know Him, you will not ask for any other game.

But yes, your attitude is understandable. It is very hard to see through the veil. I have been through it myself, just like you and many others.

Merrick

[beltor]

First of all in my view miseries are just another way to get over ones possible weaknesses, so since I have also through tough and testing time I can say that it's a period of gaining glory if you can keep your dignity with him without cursing but thanking him. To face good or bad time is just all about our Karma than his special interference in our life to make it even more hard to live in. It is better to find ways to deal with your problem than cursing him. Secondly, I can't get if a person can't believe in the god's very existence how come he relate him with so many curses of this world.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I have realized through a series of events where my pain and my anger is truly sourced and directed. At god.

No. Whether you realize it now, or not, you really hate yourself.

Look, I've been through the rage-at-God thing, and I have plenty of good reason for it: Father was schizophrenic, killed himself when I was two; brother was schizophrenic, died of kidney failure from massive doses of Thorazine; sister was schizophrenic (though not diagnosed until later); grandfather was an alcoholic; mother was an alcoholic; half-brother is a sociopath who tortured and killed pets; etc.

I played the victim card for a while, until it suddenly dawned on me that the reason I was directing my anger and resentment toward God, was because my ego wouldn't let me direct it toward myself, which is really the direction in which it should have been in the first place.

So I hated God, and ultimately myself, because all this bad stuff happened to me while I was growing up, and seriously screwed with my head, and my self-image. I realize now that it was all probably some kind of karmic debt that I had to pay. But, that's the way things work. Otherwise, why do bad things happen? The answer is simple--because.

Know this, Mag: your anger may be directed at God, now, but the fact is that you really hate yourself. And when your own self-hatred finally dawns on you, the pain you are going through now will seem like a picnic, let me tell you. But, it's a good thing. We all need to go through it, and it will all go much easier and more quickly if you are completely honest with yourself (as I think you are, judging by your posts). On the other side of your self-hatred is a Peace so profound, it will bring you to your knees in gratitude and Love.

I end with a bit of poetry.

"For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you.
Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning.
Even as he ascends to your height
And caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun,
So shall he descend to your roots an shake them in their clinging to the earth.
Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.
He threshes you to make you naked.
He sifts you to free you from your husks.
He grinds you to whiteness.
He kneads you until you are pliant;
And then he assigns you to his sacred fire,
That you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast."

-Kahlil Gibran

Love and Peace be with you, Mag

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by Maguru

If you are listening, then you know I want to be wrong. I want you to exist. I want the game to be up. I want a new game and you can provide it, or I'm not playing anymore. Simple as that.

The new game is the impostor goes and the true Paula shows up.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Finding clarity about God doesn't come from waiting for contact by God or finding a new way to think about God. It comes from the complete absence of any need to define God. Aside from the idea of being a separate self, the idea of God has become quite a source of suffering for many many people. Are any of these beliefs you have about God true or can you just leave that entire suitcase behind?

The search for truth, the search for love, the search for who you are and the search for God are all the same identical search. The search starts and ends in the same exact spot. It's up to you if you want to go out on a long journey only to come back home again. All you really have to do is be still and see that you are already home and that God has never left you nor could that even be possible.

Perhaps it's easier to say that you must give up everything you think and believe about God to really know God. When the truth becomes clear you will likely have a good chuckle about the matter.

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Perhaps it's easier to say that you must give up everything you think and believe about God to really know God. When the truth becomes clear you will likely have a good chuckle about the matter.

I am not so sure Chris. Many of us can see the connection, so why should we ignore what we can see. The question that Paula- and Bongza had a similar question along those lines in a different chain - how can you see this connection when faced with personal struggles. My hunch is that in those days of darkness, difficult though they are, give you the best shot at a meaningful transcendence.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

I am not so sure Chris. Many of us can see the connection, so why should we ignore what we can see. The question that Paula- and Bongza had a similar question along those lines in a different chain - how can you see this connection when faced with personal struggles. My hunch is that in those days of darkness, difficult though they are, give you the best shot at a meaningful transcendence.

The personal struggles are the result of more beliefs that aren't true.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Beingist

No. Whether you realize it now, or not, you really hate yourself.

150% agree....

You havent been able to create a self image that you like.

And no self image is needed if you can "see" the true you and not be fooled by thinking you self image is you.

The ego is the greatest "blamer" and to blame "god" is the most extreme blame. And still that doesn't stop your tears.

There is no God to be responsible for you. The journey "home" is a journey of total personal responsibility and in that acceptance of responsibility lies an amazing freedom to enjoy life, freedom from your ego, freedom from the egos around you, and freedom to enjoy the mystery of "godliness"....that presence of something greater than ourselves.

THANK YOU!! Thank you for opening up and sharing your raw feelings!

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

The personal struggles are the result of more beliefs that aren't true.

That is correct ...yet, every perceived breakdown of the I offers you a possibility for a spiritual break-through.

[Maguru]

I have read all your posts and I am so grateful. Gratefulness is a new experience for me as I've never been a grateful person. It was in my makeup never to be in that position because when I came to rely on anyone I was let down. The let downs were unbearable, simple as that. Not worth the risk. I believe the tide has turned.

In the other thread "spiritual arguments" I came to experience a love for my fellow man that also I have not experienced before. It began through my good friend Arcanum and continued to extend to everyone else. I still feel it and because of this I could not possibly see my negative side in the people I loved. Hence God!

If anyone has shoulders big enough to take my anger and my pain, I figured it would be him. So I went for it. I had never allowed myself to hate. I denied anything that might make me do so. I tried to hate my ex. but it's only in my mind. In my heart I see his innocence. So yes, the hate was directed inwards. I did not know. I've come to hate my life, both the past and the present.

My ideas of right and wrong, good and bad all came from the biblical god and my own father. They were both real to me. One was my spiritual side and one was my human being. No separation until god took my father when I was 11yrs old. My beloved dad, my protector, the rock of our family gone. My world crashed but the god within remained.

This is the part of me born from tragedy that I have grown to hate. It's true that it isn't god who I hate, it is who I became through my beliefs of god that I hate. This part of me, that I thought I loved, denied a natural part of myself that creates balance and a sense of self.

Acarnum pushed my pain button again yesterday and, as is becoming a habit, I thanked him and took it away to sit quietly with it. It hurt. It was the pain of an 11yrs old girl who was screaming at God, "you killed him", but being the good little girl that she was wouldn't dream of saying it. I just believed it and later I came to believe it was because he had sinned. I cannot say I understand the tragedy but I accept that death is as much a part of life as birth, and we have no control over either. It's life and not about god at all.

I think it's pretty obvious that my spirituality is a search for self. I truly searched everywhere for god and researched many belief systems. I had nowhere else to look but I still could not find me. I couldn't find anyone who reflected this in me. No-one hated god as much as me, not even non-believers and infidels. No way could he be hated more. I hated him with my head, my heart, my life, a woman scorned had nothing on me. I was an evil "B***H and I liked feeling like her. She was powerful but oh my god, my mother's love, compassion and empathy would not allow that. That evil part of me was dis-owned as the epitome of sin.

So there I believe are the polarities of Maguru. Could one exist without the other? Or is that just Paula in all her glory?

with love to you all and I feel what I say, truly humbled, Paula

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

The new game is the impostor goes and the true Paula shows up.

You know of the game then? I think you must play the prophet.

[pianoperformer]

What if you could completely quit the game? You're the only one playing it, after all.

As others have said, these are your representations of God. I don't see god as any of these things.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I think it's pretty obvious that my spirituality is a search for self. I truly searched everywhere for god and researched many belief systems. I had nowhere else to look but I still could not find me. I couldn't find anyone who reflected this in me. No-one hated god as much as me, not even non-believers and infidels. No way could he be hated more. I hated him with my head, my heart, my life, a woman scorned had nothing on me. I was an evil "B***H and I liked feeling like her. She was powerful but oh my god, my mother's love, compassion and empathy would not allow that. That evil part of me was dis-owned as the epitome of sin.

So there I believe are the polarities of Maguru. Could one exist without the other? Or is that just Paula in all her glory?

with love to you all and I feel what I say, truly humbled, Paula

What an amazing revelation!

You love your true self and you despise your ego. They seem like two polarities, but they are not. The true self is loved on the message board and no one identifies you as your ego evil twin. We see past that. Now the trick for you is to see that you're not your ego, that you're not evil and when that happens, you will love you even more than we love you.

You won't be able to focus on your loving side and there's no need to. It IS you. The focus is needed to free you from all beliefs so that you no longer get any identity from any of them. The beliefs become a hypothesis about life until a deeper understanding comes and replaces an earlier belief with one that is more attuned to existence. That's the growth process.

You need a "master". I found mine and for the first time stopped self-loathing. Thanks for sharing!

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

You need a "master". I found mine and for the first time stopped self-loathing. Thanks for sharing!

Not everyone needs a "master."

Just throwing that out there. Inner guru, baby!

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Not everyone needs a "master."

Just throwing that out there. Inner guru, baby!

The inner guru is "intuition". The growth process is much faster with the inner guru plus the master.

The inner guru is awesome! Before I had help, my growth was way too slow.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

What an amazing revelation!

You love your true self and you despise your ego. They seem like two polarities, but they are not. The true self is loved on the message board and no one identifies you as your ego evil twin. We see past that. Now the trick for you is to see that you're not your ego, that you're not evil and when that happens, you will love you even more than we love you.

You won't be able to focus on your loving side and there's no need to. It IS you. The focus is needed to free you from all beliefs so that you no longer get any identity from any of them. The beliefs become a hypothesis about life until a deeper understanding comes and replaces an earlier belief with one that is more attuned to existence. That's the growth process.

You need a "master". I found mine and for the first time stopped self-loathing. Thanks for sharing!

I DO believe that self love is something you have 'accomplished' through Osho's teachings.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The inner guru is "intuition". The growth process is much faster with the inner guru plus the master.

The inner guru is awesome! Before I had help, my growth was way too slow.

The 'outer guru' is a mirror for the 'inner guru' and can be helpful.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I DO believe that self love is something you have 'accomplished' through Osho's teachings.

And to be able to love self means that no ego is required anymore. My world flipped right side up because of the awareness I got with Osho about the socially conditioned mind. EVERYTHING changed with that a-ha.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

The 'outer guru' is a mirror for the 'inner guru' and can be helpful.

It's like learning how to fly a plane. You can do it on your own (not legally) and it will take forever or you can get with an instructor and knock it out real fast because he has already travelled that journey.

The outer guru, aka the master, simply shows you your potential because he has made it through the journey. He is living proof of egolessness and love. If he can do it, so can I or anyone because we are all human.

And that is THE problem with a "Jesus". You can't travel his supposed journey because he is "God" and you aren't. So you're stuck believing and waiting for him to come and save you.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

The 'outer guru' is a mirror for the 'inner guru' and can be helpful.

I won't disagree with you.

I just haven't found an outer guru that I have been able to trust as much as my inner guru.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I won't disagree with you.

I just haven't found an outer guru that I have been able to trust as much as my inner guru.

I have but you dissed him without even trying....

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

And that is THE problem with a "Jesus". You can't travel his supposed journey because he is "God" and you aren't. So you're stuck believing and waiting for him to come and save you.

I would say that such is THE problem with Christianity, not Jesus.

I still hold much of Jesus' teachings as highly valuable. The problem is that those teachings have been so clouded by Church interpretation and theology as to be nearly unintelligible. But, I still pick stuff up from the gospel (or, rather the Latin gospel).

And, in all honesty, I've yet to read anyone who understood Oneness quite the way he did.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I have but you dissed him without even trying....

You met Osho?

I'm not just talking about reading certain authors, or hearing certain teachings, I'm talking about being in their presence. There's a big difference, from what I understand.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I would say that such is THE problem with Christianity, not Jesus.

I still hold much of Jesus' teachings as highly valuable. The problem is that those teachings have been so clouded by Church interpretation and theology as to be nearly unintelligible. But, I still pick stuff up from the gospel (or, rather the Latin gospel).

And, in all honesty, I've yet to read anyone who understood Oneness quite the way he did.

Can you reconcile why Jesus walked into his own torture and execution? Something wasn't quite right in the guy. And he kept telling people to believe and be saved (from what??) and especially with your understanding of ego, mind and beliefs, that just doesn't ring true.

I think he got a lot but in the end I think he had a messiah complex.

[ChrisGinsburg]

The helpfulness of a 'guru' is really only limited to your ability to notice that he's not actually doing anything for you. When it starts to become about 'you need to find a master' that's a good indication that the whole master student relationship has become another distraction.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Beingist

You met Osho?

I'm not just talking about reading certain authors, or hearing certain teachings, I'm talking about being in their presence. There's a big difference, from what I understand.

I understand what you're saying....I haven't met anyone, HOWEVER, the volume of Osho's work if freakin' enormous (over 600 books all about the mind and ego and beliefs) that time and time again, the dude is speaking exactly to me.

It blows my mind and I'm so sincere when I say that a huge revolution took place in me where my self loathing flipped into self love. No mind game, no belief....I transformed.

This is something that you won't ever be able to know about me, but you can sample his teaching for yourself for free. I've been reading for 26 months daily and I haven't even read one third of his work. All of his work are transcriptions of live talks over 35 years. It's unprecedented.

BUT it's up to your mind whether you will check him out.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

The helpfulness of a 'guru' is really only limited to your ability to notice that he's not actually doing anything for you. When it starts to become about 'you need to find a master' that's a good indication that the whole master student relationship has become another distraction.

agree.....The true master is a mirror....speeds up the process...but the student must be ready or nothing will happen.