Spiritual Arguments

[Maguru]

I think we are all aware of the many spiritual arguments put forward on the forum, sometimes forgetting the issues and becoming a real battle of wits. I am thankful that we are not face to face. Phew! I don't see anything wrong in it, especially as I've enjoyed the jousting myself. I'll probably do it again too. However, I was wondering what the hell was really going on below the surface when this article by Genpo Roshi arrived. It gives a different perspective to anything we have discussed. I think it moves beyond the individuals beliefs and looks at the spiritual reality as we are currently, and maybe always have been, experiencing. I don't think he is suggesting dropping beliefs or changing them but to simply know yourself and see the validity of each other.

A visionary perspective sees clearly and without preference the pairs of interdependent opposites: yin is dependent on yang, Democrats are dependent on Republicans, Northerners on Southerners, Easterners on Westerners, men on women, women on men. It is the natural order of things that exist because of their position relative to their polar opposites.

Zen calls this natural order “co-dependent origination.” Everyone and everything is dependent on and connected to everyone and everything else. What I do effects everyone and everything else and what you do effects me and everyone else. The world is one.

The visionary perspective disappears as soon as we believe that we are some particular thing, or our lives are about something particular, and we disown or invalidate what we are not about or believe that we are not. So for example if I believe that I am a good person, I suppress or disown my badness. If I am an aware or conscious person, then I disown and make wrong the lack of awareness or consciousness. If I think I am an enlightened being then I make those whom I believe to be unenlightened inferior and less than me. If I believe that I am a good and ethical person then anyone who appears to me as unethical and bad I judge and make wrong.

So if I see myself as spiritual and otherworldly, then I put down worldly and so-called non- spiritual endeavors and actions. They become shadows of the spiritual person. In other words I disown everything that I consider to be not spiritual, like being greedy, competitive, an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, egocentric, boasting, selling oneself, undisciplined, sexual, and arrogant. Then what happens is my shadow, or those parts of myself that I consider to be unspiritual, are disowned. I then project these non-spiritual aspects on to other people and make them wrong, or even hate them for being so unspiritual. I divide the world into good and bad people, meaning spiritual like myself and non-spiritual like those ‘others’. I begin to equate success with being closer to the spiritual teacher or enlightened beings, or to having a position of some small degree of power, like getting to hand the teacher a cup of coffee or a tissue.

It is inevitable that we will distinguish between what we call right and wrong, good and bad. However, these are concepts, not absolute, fixed realities. They depend on our position or role, time and place as well as degree or amount. What is right one minute may not be right the next. Everything is dependent on circumstances. Fundamentalist views make these ideas of right and wrong into absolutes. This causes a great deal of narrow-mindedness and uptightness, a sense of me against you, a need to protect what I have worked so hard for and invested so much in being, and to prove to the world and to myself that I am right.

Does anyone else see this as 'spirituality'?

[bodi]

wisdom... ah. how refreshing.

[nothuman]

Is it just my lack of education or did Genpo Roshi just take the long way home to describe emptiness.

I don't know how spiritual it is...I have him tarred & feathered even before he opens his enlightened gob due to his "big mind" technique.

[Arcanum]

Basic duality, psychology, attachment, projection. Useful stuff. Not sure what you're saying/asking about it though.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by nothuman

Is it just my lack of education or did Genpo Roshi just take the long way home to describe emptiness.

I don't know how spiritual it is...I have him tarred & feathered even before he opens his enlightened gob due to his "big mind" technique.

hehehe I know what you mean. I am not a follower but when it relates to your own truth, it doesn't matter where it comes from. I'm not sure how you read emptiness into it though?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Basic duality, psychology, attachment, projection. Useful stuff. Not sure what you're saying/asking about it though.

I'm saying that all the arguments on spirituality can be used to know who we have become, rather than who we think we are or what we want to believe we are. However, as we know, to see through one's own belief system and see oneself, takes a shift in consciousness and quite often though suffering as you know. If it's working for you, you won't change, whether or not it is true.

In the context of the thread, you have been one of my greatest adversaries and many times I have felt love for you and thanked you for being here, as is. In the past I would have sought to destroy you (and that wasn't too long ago) but I knew you were bringing the gifts I needed to have. BTW this is being love.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by bodi

wisdom... ah. how refreshing.

I think it's only wisdom when it has been applied.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I'm saying that all the arguments on spirituality can be used to know who we have become, rather than who we think we are or what we want to believe we are. However, as we know, to see through one's own belief system and see oneself, takes a shift in consciousness and quite often though suffering as you know. If it's working for you, you won't change, whether or not it is true.

In the context of the thread, you have been one of my greatest adversaries and many times I have felt love for you and thanked you for being here, as is. In the past I would have sought to destroy you (and that wasn't too long ago) but I knew you were bringing the gifts I needed to have. BTW this is being love.

Cool.
BTW, I've never argued with you.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Cool.
BTW, I've never argued with you.

No, you never did. You were just being yourself. None the less, this is the effect you had on me, supported by Chris and Reefs of course.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

No, you never did. You were just being yourself. None the less, this is the effect you had on me, supported by Chris and Reefs of course.

It was a love-fest in your honor. Hehe.

[nothuman]

Originally Posted by Maguru

hehehe I know what you mean. I am not a follower but when it relates to your own truth, it doesn't matter where it comes from. I'm not sure how you read emptiness into it though?

No I hear you..I just have a thing about instant enlightenment promises haha......emptiness as in lack no concepts or no viewpoints free of taking a fixed position

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It was a love-fest in your honor. Hehe.

Ok love fest over. None of this could happen in Oneness!

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Ok love fest over. None of this could happen in Oneness!

Right, only in the illusion of separation. Fun stuff, huh?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Right, only in the illusion of separation. Fun stuff, huh?

Indeed, but do we want to change the nature of the illusion?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by nothuman

No I hear you..I just have a thing about instant enlightenment promises haha......emptiness as in lack no concepts or no viewpoints free of taking a fixed position

No Genpo does have a concept that is a fixed position. I'll find the rest of the article. This is the final paragraph.

Originally Posted by Genpo Roshi

Using Dogen Zenji’s phrase, this is what I call true freedom, which transcends free and unfree, which is freedom in the midst of suffering. To realize this visionary perspective is one of the fruits of Zen practice, which engages all the gifts and potential of our humanity: self-reflection, honesty, humility, courage, openness, flexibility, tolerance, compassion. In this way Zen, particularly mature and healthy Zen using Zen reflection or meditation, the Big Mind process and other skillful means and tools, can and does provide some of the remedies for problems we are facing today on a worldwide scale.

The words in bold just takes his idea full circle to begin at the beginning again. How can these gifts exist without their opposites? I think it's Bollocks in the nicest possible way.

[nothuman]

Originally Posted by Maguru

No Genpo does have a concept that is a fixed position. I'll find the rest of the article. This is the final paragraph.



The words in bold just takes his idea full circle to begin at the beginning again. How can these gifts exist without their opposites? I think it's Bollocks in the nicest possible way.

Good call.....me I just reactively don't like the guy & thats a concept he can take to the bank hahaha

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by nothuman

Good call.....me I just reactively don't like the guy & thats a concept he can take to the bank hahaha

And I dare say he does. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I mean who would trust a man who changes his name from Dennis Merzel to Genpo Roshi? hehehehehehe

[nothuman]

Originally Posted by Maguru

And I dare say he does. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I mean who would trust a man who changes his name from Dennis Merzel to Genpo Roshi? hehehehehehe

mum : where'd you buy that enlightenment from son?
son : bloke called Dennis sold it to me mum...
mum : ya reckon its gonna take this time boy looks a bit dodgy ?
son : he gaurenteed it mum .....Zen Buddhist ...can't go wrong
mum : Isn't he the same bloke we bought the car off lad ?
son : yeah mum but this time he assured me it would work
mum : just a shame we can't drive to the shops in your oneness lad

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by nothuman

mum : where'd you buy that enlightenment from son?
son : bloke called Dennis sold it to me mum...
mum : ya reckon its gonna take this time boy looks a bit dodgy ?
son : he gaurenteed it mum .....Zen Buddhist ...can't go wrong
mum : Isn't he the same bloke we bought the car off lad ?
son : yeah mum but this time he assured me it would work
mum : just a shame we can't drive to the shops in your oneness lad

You sound English, lad and you should always listen to your mam. Have you heard "Little Lion Man?"

[nothuman]

Originally Posted by Maguru

You sound English, lad and you should always listen to your mam. Have you heard "Little Lion Man?"

No but since you told me I am going to seek it out......I am from the colonies marm ....as you are

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by nothuman

No but since you told me I am going to seek it out......I am from the colonies marm ....as you are

I was only referring to the lyrics in the song little lion man, "listen to your mother or you'll spend your days biting your own neck!" They just popped into my head.
I noticed you are in Oz. I used to be English. ha ha ha.

[RonSouther]

So if I see myself as spiritual and otherworldly, then I put down worldly and so-called non- spiritual endeavors and actions. They become shadows of the spiritual person. In other words I disown everything that I consider to be not spiritual, like being greedy, competitive, an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, egocentric, boasting, selling oneself, undisciplined, sexual, and arrogant. Then what happens is my shadow, or those parts of myself that I consider to be unspiritual, are disowned. I then project these non-spiritual aspects on to other people and make them wrong, or even hate them for being so unspiritual. I divide the world into good and bad people, meaning spiritual like myself and non-spiritual like those ‘others’. I begin to equate success with being closer to the spiritual teacher or enlightened beings, or to having a position of some small degree of power, like getting to hand the teacher a cup of coffee or a tissue.

It is inevitable that we will distinguish between what we call right and wrong, good and bad. However, these are concepts, not absolute, fixed realities. They depend on our position or role, time and place as well as degree or amount. What is right one minute may not be right the next. Everything is dependent on circumstances. Fundamentalist views make these ideas of right and wrong into absolutes. This causes a great deal of narrow-mindedness and uptightness, a sense of me against you, a need to protect what I have worked so hard for and invested so much in being, and to prove to the world and to myself that I am right.

There's no transcendence of the mind in this. The entire thing is ego based, pretending to be beyond the ego.

Anything forced or decided is ego and the shadow remains. Anything that is dropped, anything that vaporizes, on it's own is transcendence. There is no shadow with transendence, no duality.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

There's no transcendence of the mind in this. The entire thing is ego based, pretending to be beyond the ego.

Anything forced or decided is ego and the shadow remains. Anything that is dropped, anything that vaporizes, on it's own is transcendence. There is no shadow with transendence, no duality.

Have you experienced what you describe above, including pretending to be beyond ego?

I don't think it is advocating transcending mind but to transcend the fixed ideas you have in your mind.

[pianoperformer]

Maguru and Arcanum are getting along. Reality really is a dream.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Have you experienced what you describe above, including pretending to be beyond ego?

I don't think it is advocating transcending mind but to transcend the fixed ideas you have in your mind.

Yup, I can articulate from within the mind and stuff beyond the mind and that's from my own realizations. The author of the quote seems to be stuck at the mind...

It is inevitable that we will distinguish between what we call right and wrong, good and bad.

I disagree because I see life beyond duality and I remember duality. The mental habits are still in me and tug at me. But I can see that those habits are not me, that the sky never falls even though it feels like it can, that no one is superior nor inferior in terms of "being", that all are unique and that each person is accidentally lost in ego, that the society seeks to exploit the ego in order to control the population with fear and greed, etc.... I see all that from my life and observing life with clarity.

Anything forced is unnatural and comes from a logical idea in the mind except that the mind is not the holder of Truth so it will and does come up with solutions that have no parity with reality. Those failed solutions become our mistakes and our collapse of belief systems including of the ego. To the mind, beliefs are a crutch. To the being, beliefs are nonsense. We have beliefs about life when we are life? Hello?? One only needs to watch life to see it. No need for beliefs at all...the sky isn't going to fall ever.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Anything forced is unnatural and comes from a logical idea in the mind except that the mind is not the holder of Truth so it will and does come up with solutions that have no parity with reality. Those failed solutions become our mistakes and our collapse of belief systems including of the ego. To the mind, beliefs are a crutch. To the being, beliefs are nonsense. We have beliefs about life when we are life? Hello?? One only needs to watch life to see it. No need for beliefs at all...the sky isn't going to fall ever.

What is mind?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Reefs

What is mind?

a bio-logic process and a memory bank...didn't you ask me that before on another thread?

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

a bio-logic process and a memory bank...didn't you ask me that before on another thread?

Yes. I always ask this question. Because that's where the tricky territory is located.

What is biological about mind? Don't you mean brain instead?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Reefs

Yes. What is biological about mind?

bio as in your physiology and not in a personal computer. mind is logic and memory and can be programmed...

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I remember duality.

Where has duality gone?