Spiritual Arguments

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

-----Pretty much knowing I'm gonna regret this-----
What sort of illusions do you see me holding onto?

total koan

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

If I didn't smell yours I wouldn't know what mine smells like. Oh Yuk!

You don't see it because you are trying to get meaning out of it. There is none. You see, me seeing you as my adversary (pushing my buttons) and then as my saviour (removing my buttons) was all about me personally. It was never your intention to do either and you are neither of those, I am.

I saw both sides, transcended them and out came the love and freedom, like many times before. The love is directed to you because I know without you, I wouldn't have found this dual aspect of myself or felt the love and freedom. Hence my 'spirituality' in motion. You either see it or you don't.

I think Ron is showing me another. Doh! I have to go for the ride.

That's how it works. None of us are doin nuthin to save nobody.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I know that me stating so doesn't mean anything, but you don't have a freakin' clue what you're talking about. I'm not offended by this, I'm simply stating a fact that will only be realized if you take the time to let him speak for himself, which he did for 35 years. All his talks are readily available.

strong word choice for no offense reply that is defending something.

He isn't popular among believers. He's popular among highly intelligent people. The masses rejected him along with the politicians and the priests, in droves...

so he's a thinking man's guru

"Truth at all costs"

like, death to the infidels?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It can be fun to use concepts like mind and beingness and ego and such, but then peeps want to turn them into real critters that run around willy nilly causing trouble or coming to the rescue. Once we figure out which critter causes what, they don't wanna hear we're just making them up.

rabbits go down rabbit holes and if you follow them...

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

did you figure out whose buttons they are/were?

Yes. Most definitely mine.

is there a concept that you are using in some way, some sort of understanding that is making you view interactions with the forum here

For my own self-awareness. Yes.

in a way that tricks you into relief and labels of love?

Why do you say 'tricks'?

so you are saying what others' push buttons of yours is actually a dual nature of you?

It has become my nature yes, but it's not a natural nature, it's more nurture (conditioning). It isn't the duality of nature I am addressing. It is my beliefs, ideas, experiences and everything I perceive about duality that is being challenged. This doesn't come from out there. It comes from within every one of us. This is the point of the Op and I have tried to demonstrate this with an actual experience occurring here on the forum. I didn't expect this to happen and it wasn't my intention when I opened the thread. I'm able to observe myself as well as participate and that is all I did and reported the results.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

That's how it works. None of us are doin nuthin to save nobody.

Nope, yer talkin to yerself. But you can change if you wish. That's the nature of duality.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I only have my experiences to draw from. To know truth requires both experience and awareness of the experience to realize what is happening. So don't be sorry that my observations only reflect my personal experience.

and what made your experience yours? what if you never red those gurus? how did those ideas get into your experience? why would this then be your experience?

The non-judgment comes from realizing what I see in me is true in others. If I really see me, I see a being innately life positive and in observing others, I can see moments where the person forgets to act and for a brief moment is authentically self. Time and time again, I see a "self" in that person that reflects kindness and creativity, albeit their unique version of those qualities. I only recognize it in others because I recognize it in myself.

if you judge it is also projection of part of a "you" thought to not be you. to create a self. same happens with positive projections.

I've grown to be non-judgmental. As an example, I don't hate terrorists, but feel compassion for them. They do need to be stopped as they have no right to take life, but I realize that it is not their being taking the lives of others, but their minds acting out beliefs that are so engrained that they are detached from their hearts and souls. If stopping them means to kill them, then so be it, but not out of revenge or hatred but because that may be the only way to stop them.

you are conflicting your ideology, in my estimation. if you see something that should be stopped - that is a judgment. and then to apply your ideology you must recognize this is part of you that you can't accept and therefore made "not you" such that it exists as something that must not exist in the self created by judgments.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Okay, look, here's my take on all the stuff everyone's been talking about, in this, and other threads.

Basically, I have always been a seeker of Truth. I've been through a lot of crap to find it, but what I've discovered is that Truth is simply WHAT IS. Everything else is only what we give it, i.e., ego. When you can get past your own ego, you end up seeing things for what they are, and not for what you think they are, or what you want them to be, or what you think they should be, you reach a place of profound peace. A plane crashes and kills 150 people, and whether you think it's good or bad doesn't change the fact that a plane crashed, killing 150 people. Ask why it happened for the rest of your life on earth, and it doesn't change a thing about WHAT IS.

This applies to everything--dogs, cats, people, trees, life, love ... everything. It all simply IS, and anything beyond what it is, is only what you give it, what you attach to it. Let all that go, and you find Truth. Love. Peace.

There are different methods that arrive at the same point. Those I mentioned are a few, but certainly, there are others. But, the method matters not. In the end, the ultimate realization is the same: All is One, and all anyone needs to do is to simply BE.

Love to you all.

Sounds purdy good to me.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Of course. Trying to smash the illusion doesn't work, I've not dented yours. hehehehe. Why not improve on them?

if you see Arcanum as having illusions, realize that this is only what you have concluded is the case. he may or may not be disillusioned and you will never know, but you can however know that when you say he has illusions, that you have tried to dent - that that is your view that you are working with.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Okay, look, here's my take on all the stuff everyone's been talking about, in this, and other threads.

Basically, I have always been a seeker of Truth. I've been through a lot of crap to find it, but what I've discovered is that Truth is simply WHAT IS. Everything else is only what we give it, i.e., ego. When you can get past your own ego, you end up seeing things for what they are, and not for what you think they are, or what you want them to be, or what you think they should be, you reach a place of profound peace. A plane crashes and kills 150 people, and whether you think it's good or bad doesn't change the fact that a plane crashed, killing 150 people. Ask why it happened for the rest of your life on earth, and it doesn't change a thing about WHAT IS.

This applies to everything--dogs, cats, people, trees, life, love ... everything. It all simply IS, and anything beyond what it is, is only what you give it, what you attach to it. Let all that go, and you find Truth. Love. Peace.

There are different methods that arrive at the same point. Those I mentioned are a few, but certainly, there are others. But, the method matters not. In the end, the ultimate realization is the same: All is One, and all anyone needs to do is to simply BE.

Love to you all.

So you have reached the same conclusions as those who told you how to find it? Beware of Greeks bearing gifts and if you see them or Budda walking down the street, run for your life or they will surely steal it from you.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

how can it sound cool when you have no blazing idea about what was Being said? but no butt smelling...

Because it's clear she discovered something, I just have no idea what or how.
Can you sign my hall pass now?

[wolfgang]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beingist View Post
I would assert that if one has to "argue" it (that is, issuing pretexts to make a particular point), then it is not spirituality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maguru View Post
Do you think that is what I have done in the OP?

Originally Posted by Beingist

No. In the OP, you present an article, written by someone else, and then ask a simple, straightforward, non-rhetorical question.

I was just answering the question.

I think you were arguing that spirituality has no arguments.

[wolfgang]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefs View Post
Is that why he reconditioned his followers?

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Deprogrammed them....big difference....

conditioning likes to be conditioned

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Wolfgang, have you been doing lines of coke with Buddha again?

I wish Buddha would be a better role model for the kids.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I'm sorry but your observations really only reflect yourself from your personal life experience. When you observe from a non-judgement point of duality, which is what Genpo is suggesting, the view changes.

If you judge there is duality.

You believe you are seeing and speaking the truth but it is your truth, your perspective through your perceptions and this is the formation in the mind. I have been there.

is seeing this in someone else and then saying "I have been there" a form of judgement or hidden superiority?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

if you see Arcanum as having illusions, realize that this is only what you have concluded is the case. he may or may not be disillusioned and you will never know, but you can however know that when you say he has illusions, that you have tried to dent - that that is your view that you are working with.

No, only his perceptions of reality based on his perceptions of the true reality that he claims to know. I have no view on Arcanum's perception of reality. He hasn't convinced me of it's existence but the jury is still out on that one.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Makes you wonder, don't it?

I'm thinkin maybe the bars just closed where you are.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Nope, yer talkin to yerself. But you can change if you wish. That's the nature of duality.

Okay, then I saved you.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Life is welcoming...that's evidenced by the ongoing creation all around us and through us. In mindless moments, who among us isn't life positive?

I don't agree that mind is deciding what mind does. That is willpower and transcension is beyond all that. Repression or indulgence is what you describe in "Mind is the only one that allows or does not allow mind to do anything.



What told the mind that there was a problem? One sick source are the conditionings of beliefs in our memory. That's when the mind creates imaginary problems to solve. The superstitions create psuedo events for the mind to solve.

hey cut that out, no arguing in spiritual matters...

[wolfgang]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonSouther View Post
...it's a process, not a thing.

Originally Posted by Reefs

Exactly. It cannot be pointed at. What is doing the pointing is mind in action already. So mind is kind of a myth.

nouns do not like being verbs.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

exactly....to get to no illusions, massive fears for many years have to be faced and a total upheaval of lifestyle, no from renunciation but because what used to be important for happiness is now seen for what it was...a crutch, a drug, a dependency.

and addictions to judgement giving rise to self

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

So you have reached the same conclusions as those who told you how to find it? Beware of Greeks bearing gifts and if you see them or Budda walking down the street, run for your life or they will surely steal it from you.

Why? Because Buddha, et al have to be lying, thieving bastards? Where do these thoughts come from?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Programmed by the society with culture and religious training and programmed by self through repetition...like learning to ride a bike...the task becomes automated so I will call that a programming of sorts.

Take to different cars, say a stick shift...ones a race car and the other is a roller skate on wheels. The muscle memory for each car is different and you know it when whatever you did in one car isn't working for the other smoothly.

The mind is an amazing tool but a lousy master.

When we are conditioned to believe definitions of self, then we are being exploited. When we condition ourselves to automate important repetitive tasks, then the mind is working for us.

the self is like a car

repetitive tasks in judgement is what the self is made out of

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

This too shall pass. Hehe.

be careful what you wish for

or think because LOA is a boomerang

or are you psychic?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

No, only his perceptions of reality based on his perceptions of the true reality that he claims to know. I have no view on Arcanum's perception of reality.

.........What??

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

My mind is still here and being used as I type this. My conditionings are still there in my memory. It hasn't gone anywhere, but with awareness of duality, I can hear the language of duality in my mental processes and decide intelligently to "stay in the middle" and not let thoughts control me.

did you ever have thoughts controlling you?

If you are able to thoughtfully decide intelligently to not let this control of yourself by thoughts to happen, what is this that is able to decide this to exert this control to not be controlled by thinking?

The mind is "duality". That's the quality of the mind...if/then, action/reaction, etc....

The mind as a tool doesn't lead to a dualistic life. The mind confused with contradictions keeps the person lost in his mind, in a dualist illusion.

like a mind that is thinking it is able to control not being controlled by it's thinking?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

the self is like a car

repetitive tasks in judgement is what the self is made out of

What kind of car do you drive anyhoo?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

be careful what you wish for

or think because LOA is a boomerang

or are you psychic?

Not wishing for anything, just stating an obvious law of the universe.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

It doesn't really exist....it's feels like it exists because of how the process of the mind functions....either this or that....bi-polar...dual...transcend the mind to transcend duality....to see the mind allows transcendence so that I can see that, e.g., my possessive desire will kill love so knowing this I don't allow my mind to solve whatever problem there is in that way. I will seek a solution that doesn't compromise the dignity of the other.

heads nor tails

It's takes courage to face the fears that the mind creates in reaction to the fear of the unknown. Transcendence is a process of facing those fears and seeing that the sky never falls, ever. Life is a positive, welcoming force.

nothing to fear but fear itself

sounds more like having faith in good things happening, which is a hard sell

life is positive until you die

A person always in his mind in a state of confusion and fear will live the life of duality and he is the one that the society, the religions, the politicians and the marketeers can play like a fiddle.

the fiddle players are confused too

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Reefs

You mean brain then.

mean brian