Be Love

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It 'manifests' in different ways for different peeps because you all have a different idea about what it is. Looking for what you think love is, is no different from looking for what you think it is not, since one defines the other. If this thread were devoted to manifesting hate, the eventual result would be the experience of love for everybody. It matters little where you begin on the duality merry-go-round.

I agree with you, Arcanum on defining what love is not, in order to know what it is. It's promoting what it isn't as well as what it is. I don't if hate would necessarily comes round to being love, unless it works that way for love too. We'll see.

[Arcanum]

Thoughts are layered and it's necessary to address the more fundamental thoughts. The desire to be well when one is sick is unavoidable unless one has completely transcended human consciousness, but why is there dis-ease? The body is responding to other thoughts that must be discovered. Lets say there is cancer, which is very often the response to chronic anger directed toward the self. Then it must be discovered where that anger comes from. Maybe there's the belief that one is worthless, which is the absence of self love. What is believed that stands in the way of self love?

So while the desire to be well likely cannot be changed, the belief in unworthiness likely can.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

If you desire to change something, then you are unhappy with (i.e., resisting), the way it is now. What is the reason for this resistance? This moment is perfect as it is; nothing needs to change, though it obviously will over time.

Wouldn't this also apply to trying to be love regardless of how you approach it?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Wouldn't this also apply to trying to be love regardless of how you approach it?

I could see that trying to love is resisting the fact that the other person isn't interested in receiving that love. That "love" could actually be a lust to get from the other. Giving to get...cunning...

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Reefs

"Be love" is efforting.

That's why I said try "Love being" which could translate into "I am love just being" or "I love being". That takes all the pressure of behaving in a certain way which makes it more natural. Otherwise you have to constantly monitor your thoughts/behavior as if you were your own thought police.

I like this. Good one, Reefs.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I could see that trying to love is resisting the fact that the other person isn't interested in receiving that love. That "love" could actually be a lust to get from the other. Giving to get...cunning...

I'm never interested in receiving somebody's idea of love. There are always strings attached and there's the risk of being poked in the 'I' by the other end of the duality stick.

Pets and small children are not trying to love, which is why we usually feel loved by them.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I'm never interested in receiving somebody's idea of love. There are always strings attached and there's the risk of being poked in the 'I' by the other end of the duality stick.

ugh....it's a joy to sense someone's true expression of love...other than that, I agree that most "love" has an agenda behind it. But when it's authentic, wow! It's nice...

And the kids and pets are authentic, egoless, but sadly for the kids, that innocence is stolen as they learn they have to pretend to get along. We train them to become habitual liars.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

ugh....it's a joy to sense someone's true expression of love...other than that, I agree that most "love" has an agenda behind it. But when it's authentic, wow! It's nice...

And the kids and pets are authentic, egoless, but sadly for the kids, that innocence is stolen as they learn they have to pretend to get along. We train them to become habitual liars.

We train them to become separate people. After that, lying just comes naturally.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

We train them to become separate people. After that, lying just comes naturally.

Right, separation is the lie...we train then to be separate liars. Lying is a defense mechanism to avoid being punished by the egos around us that seek to control us.

Lies are told to keep the closed minded people from becoming violent towards us.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Right, separation is the lie...we train then to be separate liars. Lying is a defense mechanism to avoid being punished by the egos around us that seek to control us.

Lies are told to keep the closed minded people from becoming violent towards us.

HUH??? You must be kidding, Ron!

Would you expect, after being arrested by a policeman for (say) pedophile activities, a degenerate bloke can be excused for then lying through his teeth about the whole thing, by subsequently explaining that he was 'afraid' of the violence of being charged or locked up prior to his appearance in court?

Mark Twain said; "Laws control the lesser man, but right conduct controls the greater one."

You probably also believe that the only bad lie, is the one which you don't get away with, huh?

Listen - ALL lies are a work of confusion - entirely within the closed-minded liar! They are ultimately a result of an agitation created by fear - again, as emanating entirely from and within the emotions of the close-minded liar.

Lies certainly DO NOT have, as a causal genesis - any outside origin whatsoever - whether it be ego or punishment or whatever, and to suggest such negligence is a clear travesty in logic and honesty. A clear cognisance, and the court per the above example, would have no trouble recognising this. Hopefully, now you do also!

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

HUH??? You must be kidding, Ron!

Would you expect, after being arrested by a policeman for (say) pedophile activities, a degenerate bloke can be excused for then lying through his teeth about the whole thing, by subsequently explaining that he was 'afraid' of the violence of being charged or locked up prior to his appearance in court?

Mark Twain said; "Laws control the lesser man, but right conduct controls the greater one."

You probably also believe that the only bad lie, is the one which you don't get away with, huh?

Listen - ALL lies are a work of confusion - entirely within the closed-minded liar! They are ultimately a result of an agitation created by fear - again, as emanating entirely from and within the emotions of the close-minded liar.

Lies certainly DO NOT have, as a causal genesis - any outside origin whatsoever - whether it be ego or punishment or whatever, and to suggest such negligence is a clear travesty in logic and honesty. A clear cognisance, and the court per the above example, would have no trouble recognising this. Hopefully, now you do also!

Are you proposing that society is not a lie? Are you proposing that society is the caretaker of truth and honesty?

And can you point to the origin of the perversion that drives a man to sexually abuse children?

The entire civilization is an illusion, a false "reality", a lie against the true nature of human beings. It is imposed on each an every one of us since our birth, culturally and religiously. The rare exception has escaped it and that escape is enlightenment.

The pedophile is a victim that is creating more victims. The pedophile is a symptom of a sick society and pedophilia (?sp.) is one way that sickness is manifested.

The pedophile must be stopped and then must be treated, not condemned. He doesn't know why he's doing it nor does the society that throws him in jail and makes him an outcast wherever he lives. Both are ignorant to the cause and if the cause was known, all nations and religions and politics and most of the world economy would vanish. Along with that would disappear wars and racism.

Tell the truth to a liar and he will crucify you. Ignorance is willing to do evil to prove itself superior. Intelligence is not. Intelligence needs no ego.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The entire civilization is an illusion, a false "reality", a lie against the true nature of human beings. It is imposed on each an every one of us since our birth, culturally and religiously. The rare exception has escaped it and that escape is enlightenment.

This imposition is a lie, too. Your birth is a lie. The belief in an escape from anything is a lie. From what is there to escape?

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The pedophile is a victim that is creating more victims. The pedophile is a symptom of a sick society and pedophilia (?sp.) is one way that sickness is manifested.

The sick society is within you. Do you Love it? If you did, it would not be sick.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Pets and small children are not trying to love, which is why we usually feel loved by them.

Same with toys.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

This imposition is a lie, too. Your birth is a lie. The belief in an escape from anything is a lie. From what is there to escape?

The sick society is within you. Do you Love it? If you did, it would not be sick.

The escape is from the voices of the sick society ingrained in the mind. The escape is to know that I am not my mind. I can still see that the voices are in my mind but those voices can't make me do anything anymore. I love to use Santa Claus as the example. Once you know that Santa is fiction, he know longer compels you to be nice to get a present nor to be afraid of being naughty. You still remember the Santa beliefs but their power is gone.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The escape is from the voices of the sick society ingrained in the mind. The escape is to know that I am not my mind. I can still see that the voices are in my mind but those voices can't make me do anything anymore. I love to use Santa Claus as the example. Once you know that Santa is fiction, he know longer compels you to be nice to get a present nor to be afraid of being naughty. You still remember the Santa beliefs but their power is gone.

Like I said, the entirety of the "sick society" is in your mind. Do you love it? There is no need to escape that which you love.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Are you proposing that society is not a lie?

If you are proposing it is 'a lie', then in the name of pragmatic, purposeful communication, you certainly need to explain in what context, by what definition you use the terms 'society' and 'lie'.

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Are you proposing that society is the caretaker of truth and honesty?

I don't even understand your question here. The caretaker of truth and honesty is truth and honesty, or perhaps reality! Society has enough on it's plate taking care of society - at which it isn't having an inordinate amount of success - IMHO.

Originally Posted by RonSouther

And can you point to the origin of the perversion that drives a man to sexually abuse children?

Can you please explain why I might desire doing so?

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The entire civilization is an illusion, a false "reality", a lie against the true nature of human beings. It is imposed on each an every one of us since our birth, culturally and religiously. The rare exception has escaped it and that escape is enlightenment.

The same could be said about - DEATH!

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The pedophile is a victim that is creating more victims. The pedophile is a symptom of a sick society and pedophilia (?sp.) is one way that sickness is manifested.

Not sure about your issue with (?sp.), yet I generally concur.

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The pedophile must be stopped and then must be treated, not condemned. He doesn't know why he's doing it nor does the society that throws him in jail and makes him an outcast wherever he lives. Both are ignorant to the cause and if the cause was known, all nations and religions and politics and most of the world economy would vanish. Along with that would disappear wars and racism.

What??? Run that past me one more time??? Again, you certainly need to clarify how one thing necessarily invokes all the others here, or at least appreciate; when it comes to authenticity, the concept of logical progression towards discernment.

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Tell the truth to a liar and he will crucify you. Ignorance is willing to do evil to prove itself superior.

This appears to be in conflict with your previous statement - the one I originally was questioning.

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Intelligence is not. Intelligence needs no ego.

Indeed INTELLIGENCE has no ego, is entirely the antithesis of ego. Ego is a vapid and vacillating product of the emotions, and therefore ultimately in opposition to INTELLIGENCE.

[pianoperformer]

Apopohis Reject, are you Love?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Ahh, arguments about hypothetical societal situations. Perhaps the quickest way for threads to implode.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Like I said, the entirety of the "sick society" is in your mind. Do you love it? There is no need to escape that which you love.

No, I don't love society. I love people. I don't love their beliefs, but I love their authentic moments when they drop the mask and just be themselves.

Whenever I'm with someone that won't drop the mask, I get anxious and count the minutes until I can be alone. I'm not good at small talk and I'm not a good crutch.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Ahh, arguments about hypothetical societal situations. Perhaps the quickest way for threads to implode.

consider it done!

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

No, I don't love society. I love people. I don't love their beliefs, but I love their authentic moments when they drop the mask and just be themselves.

Whenever I'm with someone that won't drop the mask, I get anxious and count the minutes until I can be alone. I'm not good at small talk and I'm not a good crutch.

Do you see how your perception of someone who "won't drop the mask" is only within you? It is not someone else who is making you anxious, but yourself. If you love them, there is no need to drop the mask. You can't see a mask, because you have dropped your own.

The only person to work on is yourself. No one else needs to be healed.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Do you see how your perception of someone who "won't drop the mask" is only within you? It is not someone else who is making you anxious, but yourself. If you love them, there is no need to drop the mask. You can't see a mask, because you have dropped your own.

The only person to work on is yourself. No one else needs to be healed.

I gotta admit, I'm leaning toward really liking this one.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Ahh, arguments about hypothetical societal situations. Perhaps the quickest way for threads to implode.

-----Putting fingers in ears and waiting for bang--------

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Apopohis Reject, are you Love?

Definitions, definitions, definitions!

Hey, I can easily answer a simplistic query like this with a 'yes' or 'no' or perhaps a 'yes & no' - all as pertaining to my definition (provided I have one) of 'love', however I may be the only reader who understands what I'm saying - for I would generally be speaking on my behalf, and for and to my own personal perspective and definition.

On the other hand, for one to sufficiently respond to such a question at the behest and for the perspective of another, the other would necessarily be required to (at least) define their concept of 'love' and perhaps what is being referenced by 'are you' .... - so pp, as a starting point; would you care to divulge YOUR definition of 'love'?

BTW(I) - I somehow expect to have an alternative definition, which may surprise you.

BTW(II) - I notice that Ron hasn't responded to any of my questions - yet I hope it isn't because he hasn't any answers.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Definitions, definitions, definitions!

Hey, I can easily answer a simplistic query like this with a 'yes' or 'no' or perhaps a 'yes & no' - all as pertaining to my definition (provided I have one) of 'love', however I may be the only reader who understands what I'm saying - for I would generally be speaking on my behalf, and for and to my own personal perspective and definition.

On the other hand, for one to sufficiently respond to such a question at the behest and for the perspective of another, the other would necessarily be required to (at least) define their concept of 'love' and perhaps what is being referenced by 'are you' .... - so pp, as a starting point; would you care to divulge YOUR definition of 'love'?

BTW(I) - I somehow expect to have an alternative definition, which may surprise you.

Definitions are concepts. I am not talking about concepts. You are already a concept, so why try to be another one?

Let's go beyond concepts. You cannot give me any definition, nor can I give you any definition.

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

BTW(II) - I notice that Ron hasn't responded to any of my questions - yet I hope it isn't because he hasn't any answers.

There are no answers. Any answers one could give could not fit into this thread, because this is about going beyond answers.

If you want to talk about society and civilization, you're welcome to start a thread on the topic.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Definitions are concepts. I am not talking about concepts.

You might not like it, yet you most certainly are talking about concepts, or at least you are referencing concepts. You ask "Are you love?" with the expectation that the word "love" means (say) a human mentality of not giving in to my neighbour's expressed anger, yet my concept of the term might be enjoying perfect coitus with my partner.

So to which definition - or a thousand others of the term, do I respond?

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

You are already a concept, so why try to be another one?

I'm not trying to be another concept - from where the heck does that come anyways?

I agree to a point about 'being a concept', but ONLY to a point, for my definition - therefore concept (of myself), or you for that matter, is not (yet) in accordance with yours. A physicist on the other hand, doesn't even accept a concept as valid, so where are you going to go with him? This is why definitions are so important if two minds are to interact successfully - at least if they are to use words, such as on a forum. I haven't as yet, perfected telepathy.

I would personally argue that we are ALL the accumulated results of a great many concepts, as morphed into a physical reality through choice and action. But that's just my concept, huh?

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Let's go beyond concepts. You cannot give me any definition, nor can I give you any definition.

I accept your resignation about not being able to supply YOUR definition, however you are quite incorrect that I cannot give you mine. Sorry about that.

Secondly; how do you expect we can "go beyond concepts" in a conscientious manner?

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

There are no answers. Any answers one could give could not fit into this thread, because this is about going beyond answers.

Ok, I appreciate answers have their limitations, due to the requirement upon words. However, seeing you don't like my use of the terms 'definition', 'concept' and 'answer', please explain what you are getting at - I have no idea as yet.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

If you want to talk about society and civilization, you're welcome to start a thread on the topic.

Not excited or much interested about that, sorry.

[pianoperformer]

I received a lot more validation today. Someone else messaged me about how much this thread has helped them, which was really inspiring for me to see. Immediately after that, one of the people reviewing my book replied about the fifth chapter, with a lot of positive comments. It was nice to receive such validation in such a short time.

As I do open up to Love, and let go of myself, I feel more and more that I am an insignificant part of something very large going on. I barely even feel that I am writing the book; the ideas just come to me and I write them. It is pure inspiration, which is definitely not from me. So I think that the more I open myself to Love, the more I realize that the individual self has nothing to do with anything that is done. They're just appearances that allow us to have an idea of what seems to be going on.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Thoughts are layered and it's necessary to address the more fundamental thoughts. The desire to be well when one is sick is unavoidable unless one has completely transcended human consciousness, but why is there dis-ease? The body is responding to other thoughts that must be discovered. Lets say there is cancer, which is very often the response to chronic anger directed toward the self. Then it must be discovered where that anger comes from. Maybe there's the belief that one is worthless, which is the absence of self love. What is believed that stands in the way of self love?

So while the desire to be well likely cannot be changed, the belief in unworthiness likely can.

I absolutely agree with you but probably much more complex.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

No, I don't love society. I love people. I don't love their beliefs, but I love their authentic moments when they drop the mask and just be themselves.

Whenever I'm with someone that won't drop the mask, I get anxious and count the minutes until I can be alone. I'm not good at small talk and I'm not a good crutch.

Oh lordy, you wouldn't appreciate me dropping mine. The real me is an evil *i*ch but cunning too. You would never know the real me if I chose for you not to. Do you not think others are capable of fooling you? What you see as authentic appeals to your sense of good, easily manipulated. I mean, look at Osho? Jesus Christ, if ever there was a mad man, he was it. What is it about you that he appeals to?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I mean, look at Osho? Jesus Christ, if ever there was a mad man, he was it. What is it about you that he appeals to?

I like humour.

And Osho was a very humorous guy.

Google something like "Osho's jokes" and you will see.