There is no afterlife!

[mysterygal]

Why do people believe in an afterlife? How could our consciousness survive after death? Our brain is what makes up our personality. For example, if a person suffers brain damage they will become a different person. They may not be able to talk, they may become delayed. So, which version of the person goes to heaven? The person prior to the accident, or the person after? You see we never stay they same person. We are constantly changing. There is NO possible way human beings so called "souls" could move on to the after life. No brain = no person. Once our brain dies, what is their to sustain our personalities? We are the sum of our personality. Once our personalities die, so do we. So, how could you go to the afterlife if you are no long you anymore. Exactly you can't. What makes me "me" is my personality. If you get rid of my personality what is left? Nothing. Can someone explain to me how they can believe they go on to the after life if their brains die.

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by mysterygal

Can someone explain to me how they can believe they go on to the after life if their brains die.

I believe there is life after death because I do not accept the premise that who we are resides in the brain. I believe that consciousness experiences life through the body and brain, but does not reside there. As to where that consciousness resides, I don't know. I suspect it is outside my understanding of time and space.

[AidanMatthews216]

Originally Posted by InJoy

I believe there is life after death because I do not accept the premise that who we are resides in the brain. I believe that consciousness experiences life through the body and brain, but does not reside there. As to where that consciousness resides, I don't know. I suspect it is outside my understanding of time and space.

If consciousness doesn't reside the brain, like mysterygal said your personality still does. Doesn't your personality govern how your consciousness interprets things, makes decisions, etc? What of that can remain if the physical structures in the brain that encode it have gone? Wouldn't it just be an empty, undefined consciousness?

[Lychee]

How could our consciousness survive after death?

Where was consciousness before life? Why is the improbability of having consciousness survive after death seen as more far fetched when the same question can be applied to why consciousness began in the first place?

Our brain is not the only thing which makes up our personality. It is a vehicle which the soul uses to interact and function.

No brain = no person.

Then what is the Intelligence which is running through the wombs of mothers and causing perfect development of a human being? You cannot see it can you? Does that mean that there is nothing there?

An ant has a brain but it is a person? No, it is not a person because a human being has intelligence. What runs that brain or intelligence? The Life Force which is running through all of us.

Once our brain dies, what is their to sustain our personalities?

If your brains stored our personalities, why have the heart? The soul? The heart has as many, if not more, neurons as the brain. Why have neurons in the heart?

Exactly you can't.

Just because you cannot see something does not mean that it is not there.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by AidanMatthews216

If consciousness doesn't reside the brain, like mysterygal said your personality still does. Doesn't your personality govern how your consciousness interprets things, makes decisions, etc? What of that can remain if the physical structures in the brain that encode it have gone? Wouldn't it just be an empty, undefined consciousness?

The brain acts based on consciousness but it is not the storing place of consciousness or the soul. A person can mentally change themselves, but if they do not feel a change in their heart that means that their true self has not changed.

[John P]

Why do people believe in an afterlife? How could our consciousness survive after death? Our brain is what makes up our personality. For example, if a person suffers brain damage they will become a different person. They may not be able to talk, they may become delayed. So, which version of the person goes to heaven? The person prior to the accident, or the person after? You see we never stay they same person. We are constantly changing. There is NO possible way human beings so called "souls" could move on to the after life. No brain = no person. Once our brain dies, what is their to sustain our personalities? We are the sum of our personality. Once our personalities die, so do we. So, how could you go to the afterlife if you are no long you anymore. Exactly you can't. What makes me "me" is my personality. If you get rid of my personality what is left? Nothing. Can someone explain to me how they can believe they go on to the after life if their brains die.

I'll take a shot at explaining my thoughts on this...

I think the key here is that my consciousness is different (and far greater) than my personality. Who I am at my core, my very identity - my soul, if you will - does not change. My personality can change. In high school, I was much more of a people person that I was in college. I'm not sure why that shift took place, but it did, and at a very fundamental level of my personality. However, my identity did not change. I was still John P (and still am). So, I would say that if a person suffers brain damage, or has some other life-altering experience, then even though they may seem different to the world, and vice versa, their identity has not changed.
This soul is what I believe lives on after death. It is unchanging and permanent, even after this life has ended.

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by AidanMatthews216

If consciousness doesn't reside the brain, like mysterygal said your personality still does. Doesn't your personality govern how your consciousness interprets things, makes decisions, etc? What of that can remain if the physical structures in the brain that encode it have gone? Wouldn't it just be an empty, undefined consciousness?

Good questions.

I'm not at all sure that my personality resides solely in the brain either. Assuming that who I am resides outside of my brain (which I do), it's entirely possible that my personality, even my memories, "write" upon that consciousness, thereby creating permanancy.

For instance, and to answer one of Mysterygal's questions, let's say I were to get into an accident and "lose" my personality for the rest of my life. I believe that when I died, my consciousness would retain all of the experiences of my life, including the accident and the experience of a vegetative state.

Btw, I've not experienced life after death myself, so there's no way I can possibly prove (even to myself) that my beliefs in this case are true. I am basing my beliefs on my personal sense of how things are, and a few experiences I have personally had.

[TheColonel]

I see the personality as an extension and creation of the ego (and the brain).

Try stopping your thoughts for a few seconds. It'll be tough if you've never tried it, but you can do it.

When you can accomplish that, you'll notice an awareness. Some people call it "the watcher." It's like the time between ticks of a clock...you never notice it, but it's always there.

That awareness is the real you. Everything else is a construction of mechanisms to help you deal with the world of egos around you.

[AidanMatthews216]

Originally Posted by Lychee

The brain acts based on consciousness but it is not the storing place of consciousness or the soul. A person can mentally change themselves, but if they do not feel a change in their heart that means that their true self has not changed.

Hmmm... I think here we just disagree. I have never personally seen any evidence of personality, knowledge, or a soul stored anywhere but the body and brain... and I don't know why it should be necessary. The brain is so complex, intricate, and deeply nested and interconnected--we can barely even use it to fathom itself! Could you perhaps explain why you believe there's consciousness external to our brains?

[AidanMatthews216]

Originally Posted by InJoy

Good questions.
I'm not at all sure that my personality resides solely in the brain either. Assuming that who I am resides outside of my brain (which I do), it's entirely possible that my personality, even my memories, "write" upon that consciousness, thereby creating permanancy.

For instance, and to answer one of Mysterygal's questions, let's say I were to get into an accident and "lose" my personality for the rest of my life. I believe that when I died, my consciousness would retain all of the experiences of my life, including the accident and the experience of a vegetative state.

Why is it that memory, personality traits, and even facets of our consciousness can be lost due to brain damage? If those things reside outside of our brains, wouldn't they be immune to physical damage?

Btw, I've not experienced life after death myself, so there's no way I can possibly prove (even to myself) that my beliefs in this case are true. I am basing my beliefs on my personal sense of how things are, and a few experiences I have personally had.

Same here. Only I believe consciousness doesn't continue because I haven't had any personal experiences that suggest otherwise.

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by AidanMatthews216

Hmmm... I think here we just disagree. I have never personally seen any evidence of personality, knowledge, or a soul stored anywhere but the body and brain...

Out of curiosity, what would such evidence look like? Besides actually dying to see first-hand, is there any way to see actual evidence of anything stored outside the body and brain?

Originally Posted by AidanMatthews216

Why is it that memory, personality traits, and even facets of our consciousness can be lost due to brain damage? If those things reside outside of our brains, wouldn't they be immune to physical damage?

This is just my (geeky) theory, of course, but I tend to think of it a lot like a computer. I think of our Consciousness (who we are) as part of the Great Hard Drive of the Universe. What we experience on this earth is stored in RAM (our brains) and that's what we mostly use to get around and along on a day to day basis. So, when we have brain damage (for instance) our RAM may get wiped. But all our lives, it's been writing to the GHDU. So while, to our earthly counterparts, that which makes our body "go" (the brain, or RAM) has lost its juice, its all still there on the GHDU. And even while we are in a vegetative state, or dead even, the GHDU exists and loses nothing.

[mysterygal]

The general consensus seems to be that our personality does not continue on after death, but our consciousness does. But if we lose all sense of self, personality, identity, then we technically don't continue on, because our earth self is what we have identified with our whole lives.

[Truefire]

You are not your personality. Your personality is the collection of opinions, likes and dislikes, values, beliefs, etc etc. It constantly changes moment to moment, and only exists as a result of previous thoughts and biological processes. That dies when your brain dies. That gets damaged when the brain gets damaged. YOU, as you know yourself ceases to exist when you die.

Like TheColonel said, there is a more subtle level of consciousness that pervades every moment of your life. It is the "watcher," or the simple awareness of existence. Sit and watch your thoughts as they flit through your head, whatever is watching that gong show without getting disturbed is your watcher. It doesn't change and it exists really whether you like it or not. Meditate a little and you'll see what I mean. Even if you're drunk, high, or whatever, its still there, although you may be more inclined to notice shiny stuff. It's there even when you sleep, lucid dreamers can attest to this, as will really advanced meditators. Although there's no way to prove it, I would bet that people with brain damage or memory problems also live with this pure awareness.

That part of you, I think, can survive death, or lasts past death.

On to why I believe in the afterlife:

There are cases of people who remember past lives. I agree many are just cranks, or pretending to be important, or they are pretending in order to make money somehow. This being the case, I still believe that some may be actually telling the truth. Several Buddhist monks throughout history claim knowledge of past lives. Reincarnation seems to me the most accurate notion of the afterlife, given what I've seen so far. I don't believe in the classical Christian interpretation of the afterlife, simply because it does not make sense to me that one lifetime is worth an eternity of punishment or happy god-watching. But thats a different argument

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by mysterygal

The general consensus seems to be that our personality does not continue on after death, but our consciousness does. But if we lose all sense of self, personality, identity, then we technically don't continue on, because our earth self is what we have identified with our whole lives.

Your first sentence is an inaccurate reflection of what has been said in this thread, and therefore your second sentence cannot logically follow (outside your personal opinion, of course). Three (possibly four) of six posters have expressed belief that a personality, or identity lives on, while the others have disagreed. Truly, no consensus has been achieved on the matter.

Honestly, if you're looking for a proof, or even a consensus of opinion, I think you'll be hard pressed. The fact of the matter is that few people know, and those who do, cannot prove anything to the rest of us.

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by Truefire

You are not your personality. Your personality is the collection of opinions, likes and dislikes, values, beliefs, etc etc. It constantly changes moment to moment, and only exists as a result of previous thoughts and biological processes. That dies when your brain dies. That gets damaged when the brain gets damaged. YOU, as you know yourself ceases to exist when you die.

and then...

There are cases of people who remember past lives. I agree many are just cranks, or pretending to be important, or they are pretending in order to make money somehow. This being the case, I still believe that some may be actually telling the truth.

I like your explanation, Truefire. I'm wondering, though, at the apparent contradiction here. If the Me I knew of as myself in a past life no longer exists, how could I remember that past life? Wouldn't that suggest that this Watcher retains memories, and therefore traits, of each incarnation?

[Truefire]

Originally Posted by InJoy

Honestly, if you're looking for a proof, or even a consensus of opinion, I think you'll be hard pressed. The fact of the matter is that few people know, and those who do, cannot prove anything to the rest of us.

Its true, people sure are thick these days...

I kid! I kid!

[Truefire]

Originally Posted by InJoy

I like your explanation, Truefire. I'm wondering, though, at the apparent contradiction here. If the Me I knew of as myself in a past life no longer exists, how could I remember that past life? Wouldn't that suggest that this Watcher retains memories, and therefore traits, of each incarnation?

Thats exactly what I thought when I wrote it. Explaining just why you can remember biologically stored memory from a body that doesn't exist would require me to invent some kind of external memory, or spiritually bound entity where memory exists outside of my physical body. Unless memory actually isn't bound physically. I'm hoping neuroscience can help me out one day. I don't know.

It could be that memory as we know it changes as well, and we carry our lifetimes with us in forms like karma, but thats all useless speculation. I'll try to let you know when I get there.

[DiscoDan]

Originally Posted by mysterygal

Why do people believe in an afterlife? How could our consciousness survive after death? Our brain is what makes up our personality.

...

Can someone explain to me how they can believe they go on to the after life if their brains die.

You are not the person you were ten years ago. Literally. As in, each one of the cells that made up your body ten years ago has died off, including the ones that made up your brain.

Your brain has already died (in fact, multiple times over).

Tell me, do you still live today?

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by mysterygal

Why do people believe in an afterlife? How could our consciousness survive after death? Our brain is what makes up our personality. For example, if a person suffers brain damage they will become a different person. They may not be able to talk, they may become delayed.
So, which version of the person goes to heaven? The person prior to the accident, or the person after?

Simple solution:

Brain = Reciever
Conciousness = Transmission

If you damage a reciever you get innacurate decodings of the transmission. Your conciousness/soul is your end-all being, it is affected by the intention of your action and your decisions on Earth, not by physical circumstance.

Also, the bible states that in Heaven there will be no sickness or suffering, so I imagine that the analogy I have used is close to the truth.

[nosussbeliefs]

Originally Posted by mysterygal

Why do people believe in an afterlife? How could our consciousness survive after death? Our brain is what makes up our personality. For example, if a person suffers brain damage they will become a different person. They may not be able to talk, they may become delayed. So, which version of the person goes to heaven? The person prior to the accident, or the person after? You see we never stay they same person. We are constantly changing. There is NO possible way human beings so called "souls" could move on to the after life. No brain = no person. Once our brain dies, what is their to sustain our personalities? We are the sum of our personality. Once our personalities die, so do we. So, how could you go to the afterlife if you are no long you anymore. Exactly you can't. What makes me "me" is my personality. If you get rid of my personality what is left? Nothing. Can someone explain to me how they can believe they go on to the after life if their brains die.

Finally someone talking some sense. You can adopt the hocus pocus fantasies of what a soul is from the other posters above if that brings you contentment. But you know I am very content with not having a soul... Zen Buddhists are extremenly content not having a soul. Enjoy your purely physical state... your consciousness will end some day, make the most of it.

[Michael Chui]

My favorite take on the matter is at the end of Tom Stoppard's Arcadia. "Comparing what we're looking for misses the point. It's wanting to know that makes us matter. Otherwise we're going out the way we came in. That's why you can't believe in the afterlife, Valentine. Believe in the after, by all means, but not the life. Believe in God, the soul, the spirit, the infinite, believe in angels if you like, but not in the great celestial get-together for an exchange of views. If the answers are in the back of the book I can wait, but what a drag. Better to struggle on knowing that failure is final."

Perhaps the question you all ought to ask is, "Who are you?" Forget afterlife. If you have a brain transplant, who are you?

[Cantando]

I agree with Michael. Perhaps, another question to ask is 'What is the essence of life?' If the body is alive one second and dead the next, where has the life essence gone?
To negate the possibility of an afterlife, is like saying, 'I don't believe America exists, because I've never been there. I don't believe the testimony of those who say they have been there; the earth is flat and that's it'.

[nosussbeliefs]

Ok, so to the ppl that believe in souls do other animals have souls? Do bacteria have souls? Or are humans special exceptions to the soul belief?

[mysterygal]

Afterlife is just a fantasy people created to make them feel better about death. Since your brain dies, all form of identify will also die. Since all form of identity, including memories dreams, and everything that makes you "you" dies - that means that technically you don't move on. Inorder to have an afterlife, we'd have to consider ourselves pretty important. But the truth is that we aren't important. The universe is infinite, endless, and we are just tiny little specks. No more than "ants" when you think about it.

Your soul could only survive afterlife IF everything is made up of consciousness, like some philosophers say. In that case, your soul wouldn't be dependent on your brain, infact it would be the other way around.

I don't mean to offend anyone, so I'm sorry if I have.

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

Originally Posted by mysterygal

Your soul could only survive afterlife IF everything is made up of consciousness, like some philosophers say. In that case, your soul wouldn't be dependent on your brain, infact it would be the other way around.

That could be right indeed. Welcome to subjective reality

[ZHereford]

According to esoteric teachings our bodies are just little "outfits" we wear here on this three dimensional earth while our consciousness is here to experience life in physical form and evolve.

It's a temporary condition and yes just a speck in the vast universe (from a physical point of view). We are limited by our five senses and the body as to how much we can know and comprehend beyond our physical confinement.

If we were ants (lower level of consciousness) how much could we really know and understand about the complex, intricate lives humans lead?

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by mysterygal

Afterlife is just a fantasy people created to make them feel better about death....
I don't mean to offend anyone, so I'm sorry if I have.

I'm sure you haven't offended anyone. You have made some good points. Our views about an afterlife probably often are fantasies. I can't prove if there is an afterlife or not. At the end of the day, all we have to go on are faith, hope and trust. I try to use these as an anchor to help ground myself when I've been thinking too much about this stuff and feel like I am going to spin out of control!

[martindv]

Your body lock your consciousness in this 5 senses reality. "Our" physical bodies
are nothing more than energy, everything around us is energy, just it is on a different frequency. What do you think an atom is ? An empty space, just energy.

[OlderWiser]

Originally Posted by InJoy

This is just my (geeky) theory, of course, but I tend to think of it a lot like a computer. I think of our Consciousness (who we are) as part of the Great Hard Drive of the Universe. What we experience on this earth is stored in RAM (our brains) and that's what we mostly use to get around and along on a day to day basis. So, when we have brain damage (for instance) our RAM may get wiped. But all our lives, it's been writing to the GHDU. So while, to our earthly counterparts, that which makes our body "go" (the brain, or RAM) has lost its juice, its all still there on the GHDU. And even while we are in a vegetative state, or dead even, the GHDU exists and loses nothing.

Wow, cool metaphor. Geeky is good.

[nosussbeliefs]

Consiousness is physics... you're brain dies, your perception ends. Get hit on the head with a ball, you are knocked unconsious, you perception is temporarily ended.

If you want a philosphy that is on par with science, it's Zen...