The One and the Many

[pianoperformer]

I guess it doesn't really matter, but I have been thinking about how the illusion of duality arose in the first place. If all there is is one, and duality is illusion, then how did the perception of many come about? How did one seem to turn into two?

I've heard several ideas about this, but none of them seem to make sense.

[Reefs]

There won't be an answer, only theories. All you can know is that it comes with the thinking, with thoughts. Could be an aspect of thought activity. To really get an answer your would have to go prior to thought. And can thought go prior to thought? What's prior to thought is unthinkable, isn't it?

The question "How does duality arose" is a question born out of duality, it implies time. And it only makes sense within the realms of duality.

There is no answer. The only thing that can bring that question to rest is that the one who asks the question will disappear and with him the question. And that's the answer, more or less.

[spacedout]

Duality is the process of sensing the world in and around you. The senses are designed to interpret reality in an unmeticulous way so you don't get lost in the maze of perplexity. What you see is an illusion because if you could see reality it would be too confusing.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by spacedout

Duality is the process of sensing the world in and around you. The senses are designed to interpret reality in an unmeticulous way so you don't get lost in the maze of perplexity. What you see is an illusion because if you could see reality it would be too confusing.

The way you put it sounds as if there is an inside and an outside apart from duality. And with the help of duality we just sense it, become aware of it. IOW a dual setting is already prior to duality?

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

If all there is is one, and duality is illusion, then how did the perception of many come about? How did one seem to turn into two?

One state of beingness and two unconscious choices:

"I am"
"I am pretending that I am not"
"I am pretending I'm not pretending."

That is how you get many out of one.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by spacedout

Duality is the process of sensing the world in and around you. The senses are designed to interpret reality in an unmeticulous way so you don't get lost in the maze of perplexity. What you see is an illusion because if you could see reality it would be too confusing.

Hehe, I knew you'd get bored and come out of trying to be with stillness on purpose or however you put it. What has it been, two days?

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Hehe, I knew you'd get bored and come out of trying to be with stillness on purpose or however you put it. What has it been, two days?

And he is already back to inside and outside. Won't that long we will hear about paths through levels of consciousness again.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Reefs

The way you put it sounds as if there is an inside and an outside apart from duality. And with the help of duality we just sense it, become aware of it. IOW a dual setting is already prior to duality?

Well, yeah, God has lots of little elves and a workshop where he designs trees and stuff, and other elves design senses to sense them in a distorted way so's peeps don't get too confused. That's all he's saying. Sheesh!

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I guess it doesn't really matter, but I have been thinking about how the illusion of duality arose in the first place. If all there is is one, and duality is illusion, then how did the perception of many come about? How did one seem to turn into two?

I've heard several ideas about this, but none of them seem to make sense.

Maybe the best that can be done is to see how mind separates conceptually. You can't conceptualize the apparent 'process' of creation, which is prior to conceptualization.

If you look at your direct experience, all you really find is appearances. You don't know that they are 'out there', nor do you find time or space or any qualities. All you find is sense perceptions and feelings, neither of which says that there are separate things with dualistic qualities. All of that happens in the mind with ideas. Duality is found only in the thoughts ABOUT what appears, and the thoughts simply aren't true. So duality is formed in the mind moment to moment.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Dharma

One state of beingness and two unconscious choices:

"I am"
"I am pretending that I am not"
"I am pretending I'm not pretending."

That is how you get many out of one.

I love this.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I guess it doesn't really matter, but I have been thinking about how the illusion of duality arose in the first place. If all there is is one, and duality is illusion, then how did the perception of many come about? How did one seem to turn into two?

I've heard several ideas about this, but none of them seem to make sense.

It seems the mystery has always been, 'How did something come out of nothing'?

I would explain it in a spiritual context of there being an unmanifested Absolute, or God, which co-exists with the Logos/Word/Christ, through which the universe (mind, consciousness, reality) is eternally unfolding.

There isn't both God and Christ. They are forever one. God is Christ and Christ is God. It is the mind which must have two.

Self-aware mind is literally dualism: the illusion of perceiver and perceived.

If mind was able to understand this, mind would disappear. Mind can only continue to appear to 'exist' through its identification with duality.

This cannot be grasped by the mind which must categorize everything as being either 'this' or 'that', since mind itself considers itself to be 'this'.

Thinking perpetuates dualism.

Thinking about this will never bring one closer to understanding.

Letting go of thinking might, . . . . . . perhaps.

[spacedout]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Hehe, I knew you'd get bored and come out of trying to be with stillness on purpose or however you put it. What has it been, two days?

Thanks for noticing Chris. I didn't know you cared.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I guess it doesn't really matter, but I have been thinking about how the illusion of duality arose in the first place. If all there is is one, and duality is illusion, then how did the perception of many come about? How did one seem to turn into two?

I've heard several ideas about this, but none of them seem to make sense.

I don't know the how but without duality there is no awareness. There has to be an-other for perception to arise. The only real experience I can give you is that before I realized I had a mind, there was no separation between me and my mind. They were one. I was my mind but had absolutely no awareness of it. The separation occurred when I realized my mind was driving me nuts and I was literally in deep trouble.

If everything remained as the One thing or God, we would be just white dots in a huge white universe, knowing nothing at all. Regards

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I don't know the how but without duality there is no awareness. There has to be an-other for perception to arise. The only real experience I can give you is that before I realized I had a mind, there was no separation between me and my mind. They were one. I was my mind but had absolutely no awareness of it. The separation occurred when I realized my mind was driving me nuts and I was literally in deep trouble.

If everything remained as the One thing or God, we would be just white dots in a huge white universe, knowing nothing at all. Regards

You would be, and were, directly perceiving in the moment without conceptualization. As a baby, there was no dualistic thought but there was perception of the world. There was awareness of the world of the senses.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

You would be, and were, directly perceiving in the moment without conceptualization. As a baby, there was no dualistic thought but there was perception of the world. There was awareness of the world of the senses.

Yes but for that perception to arise there is another, the world in this case. It has to perceive (sense) other even if there is no awareness (mind) present.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes but for that perception to arise there is another, the world in this case. It has to perceive (sense) other even if there is no awareness (mind) present.

Not really. It just has to perceive. You perceive in your nightly dreams all the time, and yet there is no other in your dreams. The idea of other is a concept. If you don't think it, there is no apparent 'other', and yet there is still perceiving and awareness.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Not really. It just has to perceive. You perceive in your nightly dreams all the time, and yet there is no other in your dreams. The idea of other is a concept. If you don't think it, there is no apparent 'other', and yet there is still perceiving and awareness.

This analogy is really after separation has occurred. Awareness of self as a dreamer and awareness of the dreams have been established.
In reality there maybe many others concerned with the dreams but especially, there is the dreamer and the dream. Without one there is no other. How could a dream know it is a dream?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

This analogy is really after separation has occurred. Awareness of self as a dreamer and awareness of the dreams have been established.
In reality there maybe many others concerned with the dreams but especially, there is the dreamer and the dream. Without one there is no other. How could a dream know it is a dream?

It can't, awareness knows it's a dream, but the dream isn't other than awareness appearing as the dream. No 'other' is needed.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It can't, awareness knows it's a dream, but the dream isn't other than awareness appearing as the dream. No 'other' is needed.

There would be no dreamer without the dream and like I said, this occurs after they have already been established in awareness as two separate things. The dreamer is not the dream and the dream is not the dreamer and yet they depend upon each other to exist.

If only One existed there would be no awareness. It would just be, possibly sensed but nothing more.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

There would be no dreamer without the dream and like I said, this occurs after they have already been established in awareness as two separate things. The dreamer is not the dream and the dream is not the dreamer and yet they depend upon each other to exist.

If only One existed there would be no awareness. It would just be, possibly sensed but nothing more.

Well, you can keep repeating that if you like, but it makes no sense to me and I don't think you're hearing anything I'm saying, so I guess we're done.

[seeds]

Originally Posted by Maguru

There would be no dreamer without the dream and like I said, this occurs after they have already been established in awareness as two separate things. The dreamer is not the dream and the dream is not the dreamer and yet they depend upon each other to exist.

If only One existed there would be no awareness. It would just be, possibly sensed but nothing more.

Nicely stated!


seeds

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Well, you can keep repeating that if you like, but it makes no sense to me and I don't think you're hearing anything I'm saying, so I guess we're done.

Acarnum, as long as you measure everything against your point of view on Oneness, it won't make sense to you.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Acarnum, as long as you measure everything against your point of view on Oneness, it won't make sense to you.

I guess so. Why can't I learn that duality is the Truth and oneness is an illusion?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Cantando

It seems the mystery has always been, 'How did something come out of nothing'?

I would explain it in a spiritual context of there being an unmanifested Absolute, or God, which co-exists with the Logos/Word/Christ, through which the universe (mind, consciousness, reality) is eternally unfolding.

There isn't both God and Christ. They are forever one. God is Christ and Christ is God. It is the mind which must have two.

Don't you think that maybe god had a hand in duality?

Self-aware mind is literally dualism: the illusion of perceiver and perceived.

If mind was able to understand this, mind would disappear. Mind can only continue to appear to 'exist' through its identification with duality.

This cannot be grasped by the mind which must categorize everything as being either 'this' or 'that', since mind itself considers itself to be 'this'.

Thinking perpetuates dualism.

Thinking about this will never bring one closer to understanding.

Letting go of thinking might, . . . . . . perhaps.

Have you no control over your mind? My mind doesn't consider itself to be anything without me. It has no sponsored thoughts of its own. It is only I who names and acknowledges it. I'm not saying it doesn't 'seem' to have a mind of its own, it yabbers like everyone else but I see it for what it is.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I guess so. Why can't I learn that duality is the Truth and oneness is an illusion?

Why do you have to dismiss one in favour of the other? It's possible god created duality for a good reason.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Why do you have to dismiss one in favour of the other? It's possible god created duality for a good reason.

If oneness is the truth, then that means oneness is the truth and not multiplicity. I don't understand the multiple absolute truth idea or how that can make sense to peeps. I do, however, understand why those who believe themselves to be separate wouldn't want oneness to be the truth, though I would have thought it would be easy to see that bias.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

If oneness is the truth, then that means oneness is the truth and not multiplicity.

What do you mean by The Truth? Has god not created everything?

I don't understand the multiple absolute truth idea or how that can make sense to peeps. I do, however, understand why those who believe themselves to be separate wouldn't want oneness to be the truth, though I would have thought it would be easy to see that bias.

Your truth appears to be exclusive whereas mine is fully inclusive, including your concept.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

What do you mean by The Truth? Has god not created everything?




Your truth appears to be exclusive whereas mine is fully inclusive, including your concept.

There is no your truth, his truth, the guy down the street's truth.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

There is no your truth, his truth, the guy down the street's truth.

Maybe not from your perspective of thinking you know the one truth.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

What do you mean by The Truth? Has god not created everything?

Why is it so difficult to believe that there is an underlying truth to that creation that isn't changed by the creation?

Your truth appears to be exclusive whereas mine is fully inclusive, including your concept.

That's like saying what's actually true is exclusive because it doesn't include what isn't true, which is mind playing games with ideas in order to believe what it wants to believe. Keep it simple. Only the Truth is true.