The One and the Many

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I was still talking about how you can use your experience of illusion to tell you what's true, but apparently you don't want to talk about that,

I was sticking to the op all the time but I would like to hear it.

so we'll talk about duality I guess.

Are you saying now that the appearance of a rope and an illusion means there are two things and therefore oneness is false?

I'm saying the existence of a rope and an illusion means that the idea of duality being an illusion is false.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes, the reality built on an illusion will only last until an-other reality is brought into awareness. Without an-other reality e.g. someone picks up the rope and starts skipping with it, the illusion will blind the perceiver to the true reality. Though from any perspective the idea that duality is an illusion is false.

I wouldn't say that duality, itself, is an illusion. Duality consists of appearances that actually appear.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I wouldn't say that duality, itself, is an illusion. Duality consists of appearances that actually appear.

I'm thinking illusion is being taken as being synonymous with 'not real' or non-existent or other such absolutes and creating most of the confusion.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I wouldn't say that duality, itself, is an illusion. Duality consists of appearances that actually appear.

Ok, so we agree duality, or many, is not an illusion. But I'm sure you have a But. ?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

I'm thinking illusion is being taken as being synonymous with 'not real' or non-existent or other such absolutes and creating most of the confusion.

What do you think an illusion is and who is confused?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

I'm thinking illusion is being taken as being synonymous with 'not real' or non-existent or other such absolutes and creating most of the confusion.

Yer prolly right. I've said so many times that illusion means it's not what it seems to be, that I figure if it hasn't been heard there's no point in saying it again.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Ok, so we agree duality, or many, is not an illusion. But I'm sure you have a But. ?

I'm pretty sure everybody has a butt. Hehe.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

What do you think an illusion is and who is confused?

The fact that our conversations all go round in circles and out to dead ends and back seems to indicate there is confusion on somebody's part. We would likely disagree as to who's part, but the confusion is clear.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

The fact that our conversations all go round in circles and out to dead ends and back seems to indicate there is confusion on somebody's part. We would likely disagree as to who's part, but the confusion is clear.

Well I assumed neither of us were confused as we both 'appear' to know what we are talking about. Perhaps it's Chris?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg
I'm thinking illusion is being taken as being synonymous with 'not real' or non-existent or other such absolutes and creating most of the confusion.

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Yer prolly right. I've said so many times that illusion means it's not what it seems to be, that I figure if it hasn't been heard there's no point in saying it again.

The snake isn't real and does not exist. The illusion is in believing it does. No believer, no snake, no illusion.

[Cantando]

Duality (for me) is the label we assign to the phenomenon of perceiver and perceived.

And, what is illusion? It is erroneous perception.

The rope may appear real, and there may be a general consensus that what we are looking at is a rope, but what we are seeing is an interpreted image in our minds.

If our eyes were like electron microscopes, would we see a rope, or would we see sub-atomic particles separated by vast spaces? It would be impossible to determine where the 'rope' starts or finishes.

Would other sentient beings (cats, ants, micro-organisms) see or sense the rope in the same way as we do?

What looks like a rope has a relative, temporal reality. We see 'something' and we give it an identifying label.

Whether we call that illusion or not is a matter of semantics. If you mistake a rope for a snake, you are similarly just looking at an image in your mind and attaching a label to it.

The 'true' reality is eternally spread out before us (pure, pristine, original nature). But, if we are using our senses or logical mind to apprehend it, we are in error. Our perceptions are distorted.

As soon as we see 'something', seeing is defiled, and duality arises.

This can be experienced/identified during meditation and during a-ha moments, but I must admit, during the course of daily living, we are pretty much locked into duality, and just have to make the best of it!

But, occasionally, we might get to 'taste the mango' in a moment of satori, and realize that what others have been saying about oneness, enlightenment, etc, wasn't such nonsense after all.

Sadly, many of us are so wedged between a rock and a hard place (duality) that we have no desire or inspiration to go beyond the logical machinations of the mind. For them 1 +1 must always equal 2.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Duality (for me) is the label we assign to the phenomenon of perceiver and perceived.

And, what is illusion? It is erroneous perception.

The rope may appear real, and there may be a general consensus that what we are looking at is a rope, but what we are seeing is an interpreted image in our minds.

If our eyes were like electron microscopes, would we see a rope, or would we see sub-atomic particles separated by vast spaces? It would be impossible to determine where the 'rope' starts or finishes.

Rope is not just the name we give to a visual image. Rope is the name we give it to conjure up the visual image and then we all know what we are talking about.

Would other sentient beings (cats, ants, micro-organisms) see or sense the rope in the same way as we do?

What looks like a rope has a relative, temporal reality. We see 'something' and we give it an identifying label.

Whether we call that illusion or not is a matter of semantics. If you mistake a rope for a snake, you are similarly just looking at an image in your mind and attaching a label to it.

Try skipping with a snake. It might change your visual image.

The 'true' reality is eternally spread out before us (pure, pristine, original nature). But, if we are using our senses or logical mind to apprehend it, we are in error. Our perceptions are distorted.

As soon as we see 'something', seeing is defiled, and duality arises................

and this can be experienced/identified during meditation and during a-ha moments,

How do you know this aha experience isn't defiled?

but I must admit, during the course of daily living, we are pretty much locked into duality, and just have to make the best of it!

But, occasionally, we might get to 'taste the mango' in a moment of satori, and realize that what others have been saying about oneness, enlightenment, etc, wasn't such nonsense after all.

But can you use it for a skipping rope?

Sadly, many of us are so wedged between a rock and a hard place (duality) that we have no desire or inspiration to go beyond the logical machinations of the mind. For them 1 +1 must always equal 2.

Duality dissolves when you don't see two of anything, just a series of one after another. All unique.

[Cantando]

Here we go round the Mulberry bush (again) ...

Originally Posted by Maguru

Try skipping with a snake.

Sounds like fun. Give it a try - it might trigger a moment of satori for you (as if)!

Originally Posted by Maguru

Rope is not just the name we give to a visual image.

It is. You perceive something - you give it a name. Once the image is named/labelled as 'rope', then when the word 'rope' is said, it points to and retrieves that image.

How do you know this aha experience isn't defiled?

Because all thought and concepts have disappeared. It's what's left after you have let go of those things (which are causing the defilement). And what is that? Already answered in my previous post.

Duality dissolves when you don't see two of anything, just a series of one after another.

Sorry, it doesn't. It persists so long as you are conceiving of, or perceiving, 'something'.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Here we go round the Mulberry bush (again) ...


Sounds like fun. Give it a try - it might trigger a moment of satori for you (as if)!

Are you being sarcastic?

It is. You perceive something - you give it a name. Once the image is named/labelled as 'rope', then when the word 'rope' is said, it points to and retrieves that image.

It has to exist before you can perceive it or name it. The rope has to exist to gain a visual image of it. It is more than just a visual image in your mind.

Because all thought and concepts have disappeared. It's what's left after you have let go of those things (which are causing the defilement). And what is that? Already answered in my previous post.

When all thought and concepts have disappeared leaving only the sensing of what is left, how do you make sense of it? It has to be your concept and thoughts about what it is because it has no tangible existence.

Sorry, it doesn't. It persists so long as you are conceiving of, or perceiving, 'something'.

Yes, you are quite right. I was thinking that there are no two identical anything but of course more than one thing exists.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Maguru

It has to exist before you can perceive it or name it. The rope has to exist to gain a visual image of it. It is more than just a visual image in your mind.

Unicorns?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

The snake isn't real and does not exist. The illusion is in believing it does. No believer, no snake, no illusion.

You killed off the believer so as to eliminate the illusion. I'm confused as to why.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Duality (for me) is the label we assign to the phenomenon of perceiver and perceived.

And, what is illusion? It is erroneous perception.

The rope may appear real, and there may be a general consensus that what we are looking at is a rope, but what we are seeing is an interpreted image in our minds.

If our eyes were like electron microscopes, would we see a rope, or would we see sub-atomic particles separated by vast spaces? It would be impossible to determine where the 'rope' starts or finishes.

Would other sentient beings (cats, ants, micro-organisms) see or sense the rope in the same way as we do?

What looks like a rope has a relative, temporal reality. We see 'something' and we give it an identifying label.

Whether we call that illusion or not is a matter of semantics. If you mistake a rope for a snake, you are similarly just looking at an image in your mind and attaching a label to it.

The 'true' reality is eternally spread out before us (pure, pristine, original nature). But, if we are using our senses or logical mind to apprehend it, we are in error. Our perceptions are distorted.

As soon as we see 'something', seeing is defiled, and duality arises.

This can be experienced/identified during meditation and during a-ha moments, but I must admit, during the course of daily living, we are pretty much locked into duality, and just have to make the best of it!

But, occasionally, we might get to 'taste the mango' in a moment of satori, and realize that what others have been saying about oneness, enlightenment, etc, wasn't such nonsense after all.

Sadly, many of us are so wedged between a rock and a hard place (duality) that we have no desire or inspiration to go beyond the logical machinations of the mind. For them 1 +1 must always equal 2.

I basically agree with that, though it IS possible to perceive the world without thought, and therefore without labeling, identifying, splitting into this and that. The senses don't divide, they directly perceive. The thoughts divide.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

You killed off the believer so as to eliminate the illusion. I'm confused as to why.

You said....

I've said so many times that illusion means it's not what it seems to be,

I responded....

Originally Posted by Maguru
The snake isn't real and does not exist. The illusion is in believing it does. No believer, no snake, no illusion.

I wasn't killing off the believer just pointing out that illusion cannot exist without a believer. The illusion cannot not be what it seems to be. It isn't real to begin with.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Unicorns?

Who perceives unicorns?

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Who perceives unicorns?

Hopefully no one.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I basically agree with that, though it IS possible to perceive the world without thought, and therefore without labeling, identifying, splitting into this and that. The senses don't divide, they directly perceive. The thoughts divide.

How do you perceive without thought? How do you know you are sensing without thought?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

You said....

I responded.... I wasn't killing off the believer just pointing out that illusion cannot exist without a believer.

Oh, and you said that to reinforce the idea that there's a believer? We weren't actually talking about the believer, hence my confusion.

The illusion cannot not be what it seems to be. It isn't real to begin with.

Yeah, that's what makes it an illusion.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Oh, and you said that to reinforce the idea that there's a believer? We weren't actually talking about the believer, hence my confusion.

I didn't mean to confuse you. I do try to communicate in terms we both understand but it is obviously difficult. My response was to this.................

I've said so many times that illusion means it's not what it seems to be,

......... It doesn't make sense to me. What do you mean?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

How do you perceive without thought? How do you know you are sensing without thought?

You perceive with the senses. You don't have to consciously identify what you're perceiving in order to function in the world. The idea that you do is the belief that the conscious mind is running the show.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

My response was to this................. ......... It doesn't make sense to me. What do you mean?

It means a rope is not the snake it seems to be.......Where did I lose you? Hehe.

As Maguru recently said :

The illusion cannot not be what it seems to be. It isn't real to begin with.

And you're saying you're not confused?? That's confusing.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

You perceive with the senses. You don't have to consciously identify what you're perceiving in order to function in the world. The idea that you do is the belief that the conscious mind is running the show.

It isn't?

Do you mean perceiving a sensation without naming it?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It means a rope is not the snake it seems to be.......Where did I lose you? Hehe.

Ah, I get it. That's from the ropes' point of view. heheh. From the perceiver's opposite point of view the rope doesn't exist and the snake Is what it seems to be.

And you're saying you're not confused?? That's confusing.

I'm beginning to realize all three of us are or is that two of us? Can't be, duality isn't real. It must be me but how can I be confused with me? Oh sod it.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

It isn't?

Do you mean perceiving a sensation without naming it?

Yes, naming, judging, assigning qualities to it, or any other thought about it.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Ah, I get it. That's from the ropes' point of view. heheh. From the perceiver's opposite point of view the rope doesn't exist and the snake Is what it seems to be.

........what?

I'm beginning to realize all three of us are or is that two of us? Can't be, duality isn't real. It must be me but how can I be confused with me? Oh sod it.

How can you be confused with you? I'm confused.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Yes, naming, judging, assigning qualities to it, or any other thought about it.

Ok, with you on that. It would be just feeling the sensation for however long it lasts but you would still have to perceive it as a sensation. Awareness (mind) must be present or the sensation would not be noticed at all.