The One and the Many

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Reefs

The music never stops. Except when there is a power outage like in deep dreamless sleep.

True, and I don't even expect for mind to allow for any uncomfy pauses, but why isn't multiple onenesses and dog bark critters obvious nonsense even to mind?

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes, like I said the mind does seem to have a mind of its own and yabbers on and on without stopping to listen.

Thank you, mind. You (mind) just love hanging onto that merry-go-round, asking yourself the same pointless ol' questions, ad infinitum, don't you!

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Reefs

Mind hung up with itself again.

Again? Mind is always hung up with itself. That's its nature

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Reefs

The music never stops. Except when there is a power outage like in deep dreamless sleep.

Exactly. Mind switches off every night, when we fall sleep (delta/state zero/unconsciousness/no mind).
In the morning, mind wakes up and the last session is restored (yawn).

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Cantando

In the morning, mind wakes up and the last session is restored (yawn).

At least there are some funny start up screens (dreams) during boot up.

[Arz Sra]

Originally Posted by reefs

at least there are some funny start up screens (dreams) during boot up.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Isn't mistaking a rope for a snake a trick of the mind? Isn't it illusion? Isn't it one of those perceived realities that would not be true?

Yes, but without the rope (not an illusion) could the illusion of the snake exist?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Thank you, mind. You (mind) just love hanging onto that merry-go-round, asking yourself the same pointless ol' questions, ad infinitum, don't you!

You have been listening then?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes, but without the rope (not an illusion) could the illusion of the snake exist?

What's your point?

[Arz Sra]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes, but without the rope (not an illusion) could the illusion of the snake exist?

Illusion manifest in respect to the subject at first level. The second level is that of the object. The illusion can be there without the rope. But can it be there without the subject - the perceiver itself?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Everything literally is one with this intelligence at all times.

Saying one is 'one with intelligence' implies there is one and also this other thing 'intelligence', making two. And that's how duality began.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Saying one is 'one with intelligence' implies there is one and also this other thing 'intelligence', making two. And that's how duality began.

It does?
There isn't a thing called one or a thing called intelligence. I see peeps reifying oneness and awareness in this way, as in 'the oneness' or 'the awareness', which comes out of mind's need to objectify and separate everything.

What I'm saying is that whatever IS, you are THAT, which is not to imply there is a you over here and THAT over there.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Well, expansion was Maguru's word. I would say expression. The nightly dream is a good analogy. What we call mind is a concept that refers to mental activity itself, so there is no mind separate from this activity. (No object called mind) In dreams, images and sensations appear, and we can call this the expression of mind, but the images are not other than mind; they are not separate from mind. They are mind itself in expression. The images are appearing in/as mind; one with mind.

What we call creator or source is what I usually call intelligence. What appears as the waking world of sensation, thought and feeling, is happening in/as this intelligence in expression. Everything literally is one with this intelligence at all times.

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It does?
There isn't a thing called one or a thing called intelligence. I see peeps reifying oneness and awareness in this way, as in 'the oneness' or 'the awareness', which comes out of mind's need to objectify and separate everything.

What I'm saying is that whatever IS, you are THAT, which is not to imply there is a you over here and THAT over there.

Everything is one with... with what? what else is there? duality set sin...

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Everything is one with... with what? what else is there? duality set sin...

Duality set sin with the imagining of the implications. Oneness is the case. Is that more betterer?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Duality set sin with the imagining of the implications. Oneness is the case. Is that more betterer?

lol - typo: set sin/sets in

Is one of the implications that oneness is intelligent?

And with that wondering we now have duality setting in with that imaginationing?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

lol - typo: set sin/sets in

I kinda like 'set sin'. Hehe.

Is one of the implications that oneness is intelligent?

And with that wondering we now have duality setting in with that imaginationing?

Yes, duality set sin with that implication, but no, that's not being implied. There's no oneness entity in possession of the quality of intelligence. I was referring to beingness as intelligence. Of course the next implication will be to turn one or both of those into an object or separate entity of some kind.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Maguru
Yes, but without the rope (not an illusion) could the illusion of the snake exist?

Originally Posted by Arcanum

What's your point?

My point is reality exists (rope) in order that it can be mistaken for something else (snake). There would be no illusion if there was no reality.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

There's no oneness entity in possession of the quality of intelligence.

Hehe, it sounds funny even having to explain that.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arz Sra

Illusion manifest in respect to the subject at first level. The second level is that of the object. The illusion can be there without the rope. But can it be there without the subject - the perceiver itself?

In this case though the illusion requires a rope to be mistaken for a snake. If there was no rope, it could not be mistaken. However as you say, the illusion cannot exist without the perceiver. Good point.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Everything is one with... with what? what else is there? duality set sin...

How can 'everything' be just One thing? If only one exists then nothing else at all could exist in awareness. Duality indeed set sin.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

My point is reality exists (rope) in order that it can be mistaken for something else (snake). There would be no illusion if there was no reality.

Maybe, but what does that have to do with basing truth on your perception, which may be the illusion part?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Hehe, it sounds funny even having to explain that.

That's what happens when implication set sin. Hehe.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

How can 'everything' be just One thing? If only one exists then nothing else at all could exist in awareness. Duality indeed set sin.

Yes, it could be said that things don't actually have existence. The only 'thing' that exists is that which doesn't come and go, which is the source of those appearances.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Maybe, but what does that have to do with basing truth on your perception, which may be the illusion part?

The truth of the existence of an-other must be present for an illusion to exist. There has to be two, not one. The rope is the reality, the snake is the illusion. If the rope wasn't there, it could not be mistaken for something else. Even if there is no rope and I am seeing a snake where there isn't one, there is still me and an illusion. Two things existing. Not just me. This is duality.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

The truth of the existence of an-other must be present for an illusion to exist. There has to be two, not one. The rope is the reality, the snake is the illusion. If the rope wasn't there, it could not be mistaken for something else. Even if there is no rope and I am seeing a snake where there isn't one, there is still me and an illusion. Two things existing. Not just me. This is duality.

If you see a rope and believe it is a snake, and you base truth on the supposed 'reality' of the snake, your truth would be false.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Maybe, but what does that have to do with basing truth on your perception, which may be the illusion part?

Duality has nothing to do with basing truth on a false perception and it has nothing to do with oneness either. You can believe what you want, it won't change the truth about the reality. The rope will always be a rope and the illusion will always be an illusion. Two things in existence.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Yes, it could be said that things don't actually have existence.

It could be said but it wouldn't make it true.

The only 'thing' that exists is that which doesn't come and go, which is the source of those appearances.

How would you know that source exists without the appearance of other things? How do you know your truth about source is not an illusion? The nature of reality (existence) does not remain the same but source does?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Duality has nothing to do with basing truth on a false perception and it has nothing to do with oneness either. You can believe what you want, it won't change the truth about the reality. The rope will always be a rope and the illusion will always be an illusion. Two things in existence.

I was still talking about how you can use your experience of illusion to tell you what's true, but apparently you don't want to talk about that, so we'll talk about duality I guess.

Are you saying now that the appearance of a rope and an illusion means there are two things and therefore oneness is false?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

How would you know that source exists without the appearance of other things? How do you know your truth about source is not an illusion? The nature of reality (existence) does not remain the same but source does?

You want to know my references?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

If you see a rope and believe it is a snake, and you base truth on the supposed 'reality' of the snake, your truth would be false.

Yes, the reality built on an illusion will only last until an-other reality is brought into awareness. Without an-other reality e.g. someone picks up the rope and starts skipping with it, the illusion will blind the perceiver to the true reality. Though from any perspective the idea that duality is an illusion is false.