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Arz Sra · 10-10-2011, 01:41 PM

Had a very interesting discussion on the topic of free will Some days back on Facebook. The discussion there has ended. The discussion was too long so I've extracted some excerpts from the discussion. Do you think free will exists or not?

Note: NO Free will does not mean predetermined i.e future is already here. It just means that whatever is happening in the present is not in our hands. Future is not YET, but it will be the way it will be.

ARZ: We all think that we have a free will. The last line is a thought. Where did it come from?

Brain scanning can tell you 6 seconds(!) before you make a physical choice between A & B that what choice you are going to make. The choice you are going to make has already been decided much earlier than you think 'YOU MADE' the choice. Choice was already made. Its just that later on the mind attached itself to it and said 'I did this'. The fact is that the choice was already made before any Conscious movement of the mind. Mind comes much later.

I'll be taking the stance that free will does not exist.

Even the attachment that mind did later on was not a volitional act. We became aware about it only when it had already come into existence

. Where did it spring from?.... Past conditioning - brain's reaction to event?... Or , some unknown source? Thought seems to arise from nothingness. This nothingness could be just your unconscious deeper part, Or could it be Divine playing through us? Are we just instruments who think we are under control? ( this thinking again is not under our volition, it happens to us)

Subhash: We can look at this and observe also that our mind is a bundle of thoughts that keep on emanating from our past experiences stored in our conscious and unconscious. When you have nothing else do, mind takes over and starts throwing up ideas. Just somewhere in that chain of thoughts some ideas overpower and get implemented. Therefore, whatever one may be involved in actually is resulting from some thought that has resulted from some experience in the past. It has not come about in a preordained manner.

Naresh: In my understanding whatever happens with us is our own choice. But still we are not in control of our life or there is no free will because we have given control in hands of our own self created alternative (ego).

Its like suppose a Pilot has given control to an autopilot to fly the airoplane because he wanted to sleep. Sometimes that Pilot shouts in his sleep that he wants total control of his plane(life) again but in reality he is still intersted in his sleep. And auto pilot (ego) is doing what Pilot has programed it to do.

Arz ( To Naresh) - I think everything is coming from pre-programming. Even the thoughts that come later on to operate on the impulse ( biological) seem to arise from the same biological entity. The are brains reaction to brains impulse. Its very unlikely that we have any role in anything. Its just a machine set in motion.

Arz : This is the big question - where is it coming from? Either its coming from our own unconscious part ( biological impulses that become conscious later on) which is all our past conditioning as an individual as well as a specie ( result of evolutionary phases) . Looking this way , the question still remains that when was this BALL of consciousness set in motion and by whom? .. it still points to something unknown, nothingness.

Arz: May be thinking that we are some sort of a soul is just a consolation that religions have built. May be we are just a biological entity that has no afterlife. This is a little hard to accept, this is why the concepts of soul and afterlife seem so comforting. May be we are just mind-body, nothing more....

Still , there is a ball set in motion.

Arz: The friction between the straw and the river manifests as pain-pleasure. But still the straw has no other option but to bear it. Its like a subtle evolution with time which finally synchronizes one with the flow.. no more pain-pleasure ( friction)... may be this is enlightenement.

Arz: (Friction) Its not a result of impulse based thoughts.. Its the result of operation of thought upon the impulse. Impulse is biological whereas the suppressing thoughts are a result of past conditioning ( society)... Its a friction between individual past and the specie-past... Both are not in our hands.. they are in resistance to each other , this does not mean we have a hand in it... we just become aware of the whole resistance caused by it. This was my point... I still do not see any free will coming in at any place...

Arz: Still, one question arises.. Someone is being aware of all that is happening.. If we were just our thoughts then we could have not been able to observe it as well.. the perceived shows that we are the perceiver and not the perceived itself... Even if its happening all out of control, there is something very stable that is observing all this....

Ptacek: Thank you for permitting me entry into this group. I browsed this page and noticed that free will was the current topic of discussion. And then I noticed a comment stating that such a conversation may be intellectually stimulation but not useful. It is my opinion that by abandoning the notion of free will, we can view ourselves and others in a glorious new light. By understanding that everyone is doing the best they can with what life has given them, one can live in a permanent state of forgiveness. 14 billion years ago the sky imploded and conscious life arose. To think that human beings somehow stepped out of the path of evolution and took matters into their own hands strikes me as fanciful thinking.

Ptacek: you bring up a counterpoint that is commonly associated with the absence of free will: that we would behave recklessly if not bound by choice. But is this true? In my view, we would behave exactly as we always have because we never were bound by so called choice in the first place. We do what we do because we cannot do otherwise. My actions are the product of my brain and my social conditioning. There is no other "me" calling the shots. Study after study has shown that action precedes thought (I can give examples). When I determine that I have made a decision, I am taking credit for a naturally occurring event. Some may blanch at the idea of predetermination, but others, me included, perceieve it as a freefall into the oneness of life. When I die to the notion of me, the doer, I am born into life's unbroken beauty.

Thanks for reading through. What are your views?

raykilleen · 10-10-2011, 02:19 PM

Inquire between freewill vs. preordain often leads to direct experience that we have the freedom to realize no one is acting and no one is experiencing.

mrthejazz · 10-10-2011, 03:14 PM

Behavioral psychologist B.F. Skinner believed that there is no escaping the environment's effect on an individual, and that freedom and dignity were both myths that did more harm than good.

I think the autopilot metaphor is a good one. What separates the human from the lab rat is that while both can easily be conditioned to respond in different ways using aversive and positive stimuli, humans are capable of becoming aware of their condition. At that point, they are able to break the conditioning. Most of the time, however, this awareness is not there and people follow old familiar paths. It's like breathing or lucid dreaming. Being aware of it allows you to control it.

Example: If someone starved you and then gave you a steak or something every time you did what they wanted, at some point you might become aware of the control that person is exercising on you, and you would be able to break the pattern.

wolfgang · 10-10-2011, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arz Sra

Do you think free will exists or not?

If we had free will we could use it to believe that we don't have free will. But we are not able to do that, so we don't have free will.

Quote:

Note: NO Free will does not mean predetermined i.e future is already here. It just means that whatever is happening in the present is not in our hands. Future is not YET, but it will be the way it will be.

You say "does not mean predetermined" but contradict that by saying "it will be the way it will be".

Arz Sra · 10-10-2011, 03:38 PM

Quote:

You say "does not mean predetermined" but contradict that by saying "it will be the way it will be".

My mistake. I meant that it is not something that has already happened. It does no exist yet.

wolfgang · 10-10-2011, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arz Sra

My mistake. I meant that it is not something that has already happened. It does no exist yet.

So you are saying, if there is no free will, that everything in the future is still undetermined and up in the air?

Reefs · 10-10-2011, 04:44 PM

Before deciding if there is free will or not or neither one could also ask:

To whom would free will apply?

Who would be interested in free will anyway?

Arz Sra · 10-10-2011, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reefs

Before deciding if there is free will or not or neither one could also ask:

To whom would free will apply?

Who would be interested in free will anyway?

Can we DECIDE?

Arz Sra · 10-10-2011, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfgang

So you are saying, if there is no free will, that everything in the future is still undetermined and up in the air?

Quote:

So you are saying, if there is no free will, that everything in the future is still undetermined and up in the air?

I'll repeat. IF (emphasis) there is no free will, then this no way means that just a movie clip is playing - A movie that has already been made. The Movie-clip analogy is a different one and need not be confused with no-free-will view.

Arz Sra · 10-10-2011, 04:54 PM

Quote:

To whom would free will apply?

Is it subject to something or something subject to it?

Quote:

Who would be interested in free will anyway?

Depends upon if free will is or is not there.

Reefs · 10-10-2011, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arz Sra

Can we DECIDE?

You can conclude which basically means to decide.

raykilleen · 10-10-2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reefs

Before deciding if there is free will or not or neither one could also ask:

To whom would free will apply?

Who would be interested in free will anyway?

Similar to the first notion that surfaced when reading this thread; what would I change, what would be different etc. etc. etc., the questions started to deluge my mind which lead to an extinction of thought, stillness occurred my spontaneous response arose.

Reefs · 10-10-2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arz Sra

I'll repeat. IF (emphasis) there is no free will, then this no way means that just a movie clip is playing - A movie that has already been made. The Movie-clip analogy is a different one and need not be confused with no-free-will view.

That's right. But it seems that the question of free will is connected to the concept of time. Free will is all about the future, isn't it?

Marth · 10-10-2011, 05:20 PM

life would be boring without free will. But with that said we are very very dependant on our environment and habits, they define us.

Arcanum · 10-10-2011, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrthejazz

Behavioral psychologist B.F. Skinner believed that there is no escaping the environment's effect on an individual, and that freedom and dignity were both myths that did more harm than good.

I think the autopilot metaphor is a good one. What separates the human from the lab rat is that while both can easily be conditioned to respond in different ways using aversive and positive stimuli, humans are capable of becoming aware of their condition. At that point, they are able to break the conditioning. Most of the time, however, this awareness is not there and people follow old familiar paths. It's like breathing or lucid dreaming. Being aware of it allows you to control it.

Example: If someone starved you and then gave you a steak or something every time you did what they wanted, at some point you might become aware of the control that person is exercising on you, and you would be able to break the pattern.

Well, the pattern will be broken or not. It's a matter of that same conditioning. Assuming the pattern is broken, that becomes the new conditioning, but control has not been gained. Different thoughts occur that may constitute a greater conscious awareness and different, more conscious and less insane, behavior, but they still occur spontaneously.

Reefs · 10-10-2011, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arz Sra

Is it subject to something or something subject to it?

What are you referring to with 'it', the 'who' or 'free will'?

Quote:

Depends upon if free will is or is not there.

At least as a concept it is there.

Arz Sra · 10-10-2011, 05:24 PM

Quote:

life would be boring without free will. But with that said we are very very dependant on our environment and habits, they define us.

Life would not be boring . If there is no free will then even Being bored or not is not your choice.

Reefs · 10-10-2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marth

life would be boring without free will. But with that said we are very very dependant on our environment and habits, they define us.

I don't think so. Persons can conclude that there is no free will and act as if there is free will in their everyday life. The concept of free will seems to come and go with the person.

In that sense free will does exist. But how real is it?

Arz Sra · 10-10-2011, 05:26 PM

Quote:

That's right. But it seems that the question of free will is connected to the concept of time. Free will is all about the future, isn't it?

Very keen observation. Every thought is for the next moment, not for the moment.

Arcanum · 10-10-2011, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfgang

If we had free will we could use it to believe that we don't have free will. But we are not able to do that, so we don't have free will.

Belief and free will are actually different animals. Belief comes from the experience of what seems to be true, while free will is the ability to make volitional choices about what seems to be.

Quote:

You say "does not mean predetermined" but contradict that by saying "it will be the way it will be".

To me, predetermined seems to imply a predeterminer; someone or something who plans the future. There is no such critter, and yet there is a spontaneous unfolding moment to moment.

Arcanum · 10-10-2011, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reefs

Before deciding if there is free will or not or neither one could also ask:

To whom would free will apply?

Who would be interested in free will anyway?

If the question is asked, obviously there is an imagined person who is interested. This is the difficulty with free will discussions; those in the free willy camp are already operating from a misconception of personhood, and in order to hold it in place, free will must be affirmed somehow.

Arz Sra · 10-10-2011, 05:35 PM

Quote:

What are you referring to with 'it', the 'who' or 'free will'?

NO-free-will does not imply lack of will. Just that will is not within us. We are subject to the will. Not it to us. Just wanted your views.. Is it not merely a concept bound, as always ,by the cause-effect mechanism of the mind? Even denying Free will seems to be balanced upon the causal nexus of the mind itself. 'No-free-will ' again leads to a bigger will. It may not be our will but someones will. The very origin of universe is a blow over cause-effect view ( What caused the first cause

).

Quote:

At least as a concept it is there.

Indeed. As a dissection or of 'what is'. Interesting how mind wants to bind 'what is' into some form of system. Not knowing that 'what is' may not be bound by the same laws which the mind is bound to think in.

Arcanum · 10-10-2011, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marth

life would be boring without free will. But with that said we are very very dependant on our environment and habits, they define us.

Seems to me like having no control over what happens could get pretty exciting. Perhaps you just mean undesirable and frightening?

Arcanum · 10-10-2011, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arz Sra

NO-free-will does not imply lack of will. Just that will is not within us. We are subject to the will. Not it to us. Just wanted your views.. Is it not merely a concept bound, as always ,by the cause-effect mechanism of the mind? Even denying Free will seems to be balanced upon the causal nexus of the mind itself. 'No-free-will ' again leads to a bigger will. It may not be our will but someones will. The very origin of universe is a blow over cause-effect view ( What caused the first cause

).

We could say there is a universal will, or the will of God or whatever, but it's misleading because this intelligent activity is not personal. IOW, this singular intelligence does not move volitionally either, and cannot choose until it engages an individuated mind and seemingly becomes personal, at which point this intelligence is 'deciding' on the basis of personal conditioning rather than free will. Hencely, there is no free will at any level in spite of the fact that intelligence is fully present, and 'will' really has no meaning and doesn't apply to how creation unfolds.

Anagogy · 10-10-2011, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanum

If the question is asked, obviously there is an imagined person who is interested. This is the difficulty with free will discussions; those in the free willy camp are already operating from a misconception of personhood, and in order to hold it in place, free will must be affirmed somehow.

So hypothetically, Arcanum, if I walk into a school right now and kill a bunch of kids that's not my fault right? Because I have no free will? I couldn't stop myself? It was just a spontaneous thing?

Is that what you are saying?

Arz Sra · 10-10-2011, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Seems to me like having no control over what happens could get pretty exciting. Perhaps you just mean undesirable and frightening?

Quote:

Seems to me like having no control over what happens could get pretty exciting. Perhaps you just mean undesirable and frightening?

To know that there is no free will is indeed a deep transformation. Everything falls into a rhythm. But is it in ones hand? One will believe just the way one believes. We do what we do because we cannot do otherwise. Even to believe not believe seems to impy a CHOICE that leads to excitement/depression. .

NO-free will is the best depressant for LOAers who are so busy shaping their destinies. You wont see any excitement there

Arcanum · 10-10-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anagogy

So hypothetically, Arcanum, if I walk into a school right now and kill a bunch of kids that's not my fault right? Because I have no free will? I couldn't stop myself? It was just a spontaneous thing?

Is that what you are saying?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Doesn't lend itself to control of the unwashed masses so much, does it?

Anagogy · 10-10-2011, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Doesn't lend itself to control of the unwashed masses so much, does it?

No, it doesn't.

And if I accidentally hunt you down and kill you, I'm sorry btw. I couldn't stop myself.

Arz Sra · 10-10-2011, 06:01 PM

Quote:

So hypothetically, Arcanum, if I walk into a school right now and kill a bunch of kids that's not my fault right? Because I have no free will? I couldn't stop myself? It was just a spontaneous thing?

Is that what you are saying?

If you feel fear doing that, or you do not do that because you cant, its really because you cant do otherwise. I'll quote from the the original thread post.

Quote:

you bring up a counterpoint that is commonly associated with the absence of free will: that we would behave recklessly if not bound by choice. But is this true? In my view, we would behave exactly as we always have because we never were bound by so called choice in the first place. We do what we do because we cannot do otherwise

Even you're not doing is not in your hand. No-free-will is not a concept to assimilate - just a realization that the very thought of free will ( or no-free-will) is product of THE WILL. As a thought , no-free-will its just a tool . You can murder even without it. There are plenty of reasons one can give to do that.

Arz Sra · 10-10-2011, 06:06 PM

Quote:

at which point this intelligence is 'deciding' on the basis of personal conditioning rather than free will. Hencely, there is no free will at any level in spite of the fact that intelligence is fully present, and 'will' really has no meaning and doesn't apply to how creation unfolds.

Indeed.

10-10-2011, 01:41 PM	#1 (permalink)
Arz Sra Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Chandigarh Posts: 174	The Myth of Free Will Had a very interesting discussion on the topic of free will Some days back on Facebook. The discussion there has ended. The discussion was too long so I've extracted some excerpts from the discussion. Do you think free will exists or not? Note: NO Free will does not mean predetermined i.e future is already here. It just means that whatever is happening in the present is not in our hands. Future is not YET, but it will be the way it will be. ARZ: We all think that we have a free will. The last line is a thought. Where did it come from? Brain scanning can tell you 6 seconds(!) before you make a physical choice between A & B that what choice you are going to make. The choice you are going to make has already been decided much earlier than you think 'YOU MADE' the choice. Choice was already made. Its just that later on the mind attached itself to it and said 'I did this'. The fact is that the choice was already made before any Conscious movement of the mind. Mind comes much later. I'll be taking the stance that free will does not exist. Even the attachment that mind did later on was not a volitional act. We became aware about it only when it had already come into existence . Where did it spring from?.... Past conditioning - brain's reaction to event?... Or , some unknown source? Thought seems to arise from nothingness. This nothingness could be just your unconscious deeper part, Or could it be Divine playing through us? Are we just instruments who think we are under control? ( this thinking again is not under our volition, it happens to us) Subhash: We can look at this and observe also that our mind is a bundle of thoughts that keep on emanating from our past experiences stored in our conscious and unconscious. When you have nothing else do, mind takes over and starts throwing up ideas. Just somewhere in that chain of thoughts some ideas overpower and get implemented. Therefore, whatever one may be involved in actually is resulting from some thought that has resulted from some experience in the past. It has not come about in a preordained manner. Naresh: In my understanding whatever happens with us is our own choice. But still we are not in control of our life or there is no free will because we have given control in hands of our own self created alternative (ego). Its like suppose a Pilot has given control to an autopilot to fly the airoplane because he wanted to sleep. Sometimes that Pilot shouts in his sleep that he wants total control of his plane(life) again but in reality he is still intersted in his sleep. And auto pilot (ego) is doing what Pilot has programed it to do. Arz ( To Naresh) - I think everything is coming from pre-programming. Even the thoughts that come later on to operate on the impulse ( biological) seem to arise from the same biological entity. The are brains reaction to brains impulse. Its very unlikely that we have any role in anything. Its just a machine set in motion. Arz : This is the big question - where is it coming from? Either its coming from our own unconscious part ( biological impulses that become conscious later on) which is all our past conditioning as an individual as well as a specie ( result of evolutionary phases) . Looking this way , the question still remains that when was this BALL of consciousness set in motion and by whom? .. it still points to something unknown, nothingness. Arz: May be thinking that we are some sort of a soul is just a consolation that religions have built. May be we are just a biological entity that has no afterlife. This is a little hard to accept, this is why the concepts of soul and afterlife seem so comforting. May be we are just mind-body, nothing more.... Still , there is a ball set in motion. Arz: The friction between the straw and the river manifests as pain-pleasure. But still the straw has no other option but to bear it. Its like a subtle evolution with time which finally synchronizes one with the flow.. no more pain-pleasure ( friction)... may be this is enlightenement. Arz: (Friction) Its not a result of impulse based thoughts.. Its the result of operation of thought upon the impulse. Impulse is biological whereas the suppressing thoughts are a result of past conditioning ( society)... Its a friction between individual past and the specie-past... Both are not in our hands.. they are in resistance to each other , this does not mean we have a hand in it... we just become aware of the whole resistance caused by it. This was my point... I still do not see any free will coming in at any place... Arz: Still, one question arises.. Someone is being aware of all that is happening.. If we were just our thoughts then we could have not been able to observe it as well.. the perceived shows that we are the perceiver and not the perceived itself... Even if its happening all out of control, there is something very stable that is observing all this.... Ptacek: Thank you for permitting me entry into this group. I browsed this page and noticed that free will was the current topic of discussion. And then I noticed a comment stating that such a conversation may be intellectually stimulation but not useful. It is my opinion that by abandoning the notion of free will, we can view ourselves and others in a glorious new light. By understanding that everyone is doing the best they can with what life has given them, one can live in a permanent state of forgiveness. 14 billion years ago the sky imploded and conscious life arose. To think that human beings somehow stepped out of the path of evolution and took matters into their own hands strikes me as fanciful thinking. Ptacek: you bring up a counterpoint that is commonly associated with the absence of free will: that we would behave recklessly if not bound by choice. But is this true? In my view, we would behave exactly as we always have because we never were bound by so called choice in the first place. We do what we do because we cannot do otherwise. My actions are the product of my brain and my social conditioning. There is no other "me" calling the shots. Study after study has shown that action precedes thought (I can give examples). When I determine that I have made a decision, I am taking credit for a naturally occurring event. Some may blanch at the idea of predetermination, but others, me included, perceieve it as a freefall into the oneness of life. When I die to the notion of me, the doer, I am born into life's unbroken beauty. Thanks for reading through. What are your views? Last edited by Arz Sra; 10-10-2011 at 01:45 PM.

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10-10-2011, 02:19 PM	#2 (permalink)
raykilleen Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Zionsville PA Posts: 338	Inquire between freewill vs. preordain often leads to direct experience that we have the freedom to realize no one is acting and no one is experiencing.

10-10-2011, 03:14 PM	#3 (permalink)
mrthejazz Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 132	Behavioral psychologist B.F. Skinner believed that there is no escaping the environment's effect on an individual, and that freedom and dignity were both myths that did more harm than good. I think the autopilot metaphor is a good one. What separates the human from the lab rat is that while both can easily be conditioned to respond in different ways using aversive and positive stimuli, humans are capable of becoming aware of their condition. At that point, they are able to break the conditioning. Most of the time, however, this awareness is not there and people follow old familiar paths. It's like breathing or lucid dreaming. Being aware of it allows you to control it. Example: If someone starved you and then gave you a steak or something every time you did what they wanted, at some point you might become aware of the control that person is exercising on you, and you would be able to break the pattern.

10-10-2011, 04:44 PM	#7 (permalink)
Reefs Banned Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: d(-.-)b Posts: 2,255	Before deciding if there is free will or not or neither one could also ask: To whom would free will apply? Who would be interested in free will anyway?

10-10-2011, 05:20 PM	#14 (permalink)
Marth Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 284	life would be boring without free will. But with that said we are very very dependant on our environment and habits, they define us.

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