Can you really change a deep, subconscious belief??

[pinky3]

No offense to anyone here... but I often feel that people here do make these outrageous "statements" and representations of "facts". It would be nice to see a list of references

Didn't think this would turn into a battle of testosterone...

Anyway. Time will tell how my mind and beliefs work.
Opinion is merely that... opinion.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by pinky3

Didn't think this would turn into a battle of testosterone...

Agreed. And *puts on Moderator Hat for a moment* I'm going to ask nicely for people to please stop it, because it's going to derail the thread entirely. Play nicely, or don't play at all, m'kay? *takes off Moderator Hat*

Originally Posted by pinky3

Opinion is merely that... opinion.

Oh, that's just your opinion.

[pinky3]

Originally Posted by CaterpillarWoman

Oh, that's just your opinion.

Ha ha ha I like that.

[Andras]

I have to jump into this rain of poop- metaphorically speaking - I have read a little book written by a practicing psychologist (Leslie LeCron) and it opened my eyes; it is full of case studies of illnesses, phobias, deep seated childhood issues cured with guided and self-hypnosis.
Self-Hypnotism: The Technique and Its Use in Daily Living (Signet)

Originally Posted by pinky3

No offense to anyone here... but I often feel that people here do make these outrageous "statements" and representations of "facts". It would be nice to see a list of references

Didn't think this would turn into a battle of testosterone...

Anyway. Time will tell how my mind and beliefs work.
Opinion is merely that... opinion.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Ordinarily I would just ignore you. But this would have been the third or fourth time this exact dynamic happens where you directly address me, and I completely ignore you, for the exact same reason, so I thought it warranted an explanation, which I don't necessarily expect you to understand, but I'll give it anyway because it'd be rude not to. I don't ordinarily ignore people who address me directly.

Oh, i see, you don't want to be rude.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by pinky3

No offense to anyone here... but I often feel that people here do make these outrageous "statements" and representations of "facts". It would be nice to see a list of references

I assume it's the statement that beliefs aren't chosen that you see as so outrageous that it doesn't deserve comment? Did you choose to believe in gravity or pink Cadillacs or shooting stars, or is it that your experience shows you these things are real? If the latter, are you certain all beliefs don't work this way?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by CaterpillarWoman

Agreed. And *puts on Moderator Hat for a moment* I'm going to ask nicely for people to please stop it, because it's going to derail the thread entirely. Play nicely, or don't play at all, m'kay? *takes off Moderator Hat*

No problem at all!

[truant]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

...Did you choose to believe in gravity or pink Cadillacs or shooting stars, or is it that your experience shows you these things are real?...

Pooh pooh, you know these things are just as unreal as everything else. Why are you trying to confuse him?

And of course beliefs can be changed consciously. Morty Lefkoe flips beliefs the way a cook flips burgers.

Beliefs are the result of conscious thoughts that are accepted as true. Usually there is a period where the thoughts are tested against reality and if the evidence supports them then people accept them. There's nothing subconscious about the process, though most people don't remember forming the beliefs they develop in childhood. Most people don't bother to pay attention to what they're thinking so it seems unconscious to them but that's an artifact of having such a well-oiled machine. If you pay attention to your own experience you will see it happening all the time.

And of course egos can consciously change their own beliefs. That isn't a serious point of contention is it? That would be like denying the reality of pink Cadillacs.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by truant

Pooh pooh, you know these things are just as unreal as everything else. Why are you trying to confuse him?

And of course beliefs can be changed consciously. Morty Lefkoe flips beliefs the way a cook flips burgers.

Beliefs are the result of conscious thoughts that are accepted as true. Usually there is a period where the thoughts are tested against reality and if the evidence supports them then people accept them. There's nothing subconscious about the process, though most people don't remember forming the beliefs they develop in childhood. Most people don't bother to pay attention to what they're thinking so it seems unconscious to them but that's an artifact of having such a well-oiled machine. If you pay attention to your own experience you will see it happening all the time.

And of course egos can consciously change their own beliefs. That isn't a serious point of contention is it? That would be like denying the reality of pink Cadillacs.

Opinions aren't the same as beliefs. Peeps can take one stand when talking to one person and a express a different one when talking to another, but they don't really believe it. Opinions don't matter, even for the opinionated. Can somebody consciously not believe in gravity, or in anything else that their sense are telling them is so? They say seeing is believing, and spiritual folks are always wanting to know what you've actually experienced rather than the ideas you've collected from teachings, because then it can be believed.

I'm not saying experience makes it true, just that experience determines belief.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by truant

And of course egos can consciously change their own beliefs.

What do you mean by this?

[truant]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Opinions aren't the same as beliefs. Peeps can take one stand when talking to one person and a express a different one when talking to another, but they don't really believe it. Opinions don't matter, even for the opinionated. Can somebody consciously not believe in gravity, or in anything else that their sense are telling them is so? They say seeing is believing, and spiritual folks are always wanting to know what you've actually experienced rather than the ideas you've collected from teachings, because then it can be believed.

I'm not saying experience makes it true, just that experience determines belief.

Let's try to be clear about this: when I say that egos change beliefs I mean precisely that. I mean at one time they hold one belief, and at another time they hold another. In this case, a belief is something that is consciously held to be TRUE whether it is or not. For example, I may BELIEVE that I am not worthy of being loved and later on, after a long process of self-discovery, forgiveness, etc., (all done consciously) I may BELIEVE that I am worthy of love. The transmutation itself doesn't have to be conscious, only the intent and the consequent result. A belief is a statement about the state of the self or the state of the world which the ego uses to define an appropriate course of conduct.

You are using the term opinion instead, but that is not typically the way I use the term opinion, which to me only denotes a weak sort of belief, such as whether it is better to have more or less government intervention in the economy. Opinions tend to be things people hold to be true for the sake of convenience, not because they necessarily believe that they have the final answer in the matter. Beliefs tend to be more along the lines of final answers. Of course, these are simply shades of gray in the terminology; we may arbitrarily define the lines between them in whatever way is most convenient.

Psychotherapists assist people in making transformations in their beliefs all of the time. The entire edifice of CBT is built on it. I doubt many of them would prefer using the term opinion to denote strongly held affective beliefs about the state of oneself or the world. I feel belief is a more appropriate terminology in this case but it really doesn't matter what terms we use as long as we agree on them.

When it comes to gravity, we're not really talking about beliefs in any case. The theory of gravity may be held as a belief, I suppose, but the experience of gravity is direct perception. You don't believe that an apple is red, you simply perceive its redness. You don't believe in gravity, you simply fall down and then come up with a name for it. We can spin this out into a long conversation about the social construction of reality but that's all speculation. No one actually knows whether or not gravity is 'real' or a 'belief'. Everything is pure speculation. Even the enlightened saints only know what is directly presented in awareness, so be wary of enlightened souls claiming that they know that 'gravity is real'. That's a speculation. Daniel Dunglass Home would have disagreed with them.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by truant

Let's try to be clear about this: when I say that egos change beliefs I mean precisely that. I mean at one time they hold one belief, and at another time they hold another. In this case, a belief is something that is consciously held to be TRUE whether it is or not. For example, I may BELIEVE that I am not worthy of being loved and later on, after a long process of self-discovery, forgiveness, etc., (all done consciously) I may BELIEVE that I am worthy of love. The transmutation itself doesn't have to be conscious, only the intent and the consequent result. A belief is a statement about the state of the self or the state of the world which the ego uses to define an appropriate course of conduct.

Okay, thanks for clarifying. I agree.

You are using the term opinion instead, but that is not typically the way I use the term opinion, which to me only denotes a weak sort of belief, such as whether it is better to have more or less government intervention in the economy. Opinions tend to be things people hold to be true for the sake of convenience, not because they necessarily believe that they have the final answer in the matter. Beliefs tend to be more along the lines of final answers. Of course, these are simply shades of gray in the terminology; we may arbitrarily define the lines between them in whatever way is most convenient.

I only used the term 'opinion' because the only way I could figure you concluded that we could choose to change beliefs is if you equated them with opinions. I also agree with your ideas about opinion.

Psychotherapists assist people in making transformations in their beliefs all of the time. The entire edifice of CBT is built on it. I doubt many of them would prefer using the term opinion to denote strongly held affective beliefs about the state of oneself or the world. I feel belief is a more appropriate terminology in this case but it really doesn't matter what terms we use as long as we agree on them.

I guess the difficulty is that you're suggesting that beliefs can change through investigation, which of course they can, while what I've been challenging is the notion that we can change them simply by choosing something else, which was Vinny's implication (whatever words he actually used).

When it comes to gravity, we're not really talking about beliefs in any case. The theory of gravity may be held as a belief, I suppose, but the experience of gravity is direct perception. You don't believe that an apple is red, you simply perceive its redness. You don't believe in gravity, you simply fall down and then come up with a name for it. We can spin this out into a long conversation about the social construction of reality but that's all speculation. No one actually knows whether or not gravity is 'real' or a 'belief'. Everything is pure speculation. Even the enlightened saints only know what is directly presented in awareness, so be wary of enlightened souls claiming that they know that 'gravity is real'. That's a speculation. Daniel Dunglass Home would have disagreed with them.

The direct perception of anything is different from the concept of it, but of course I'm talking about the concept of it. When you wake up in the morning, do you believe you will be lying on the bed or stuck to the ceiling? Hehe. That's what I mean by believing it.

[truant]

It seems we agree, then.

The problem arises from trying to use discreet terms to describe something that is very fluid. The 'firmer' the 'belief' the harder it is to change. Opinions are easily changed, the 'laws of Nature' are a whole different kettle of fish. When most people talk about beliefs, they tend to mean something somewhere in the middle but the conversation always gravitates to the extremes.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Beliefs are a reflection of our experiences, and ironically also the 'cause' of them. Impressions are 'tested out' in experience by paying attention to what actually seems to be happening with regard to those impressions, and what will happen will generally follow that impression, gradually strengthening the belief, and therefore the experience of the validity of that belief. This is why most beliefs are so intractable; they reflect our actual experience whether they are objectively true in some way or not.

This is why beliefs can't be changed through some kind of method or choice to do so. They aren't the result of choices to begin with. If it seems that a belief has changed, it's the result of gaining a deeper clarity, which is then reflected in our experience just as the old belief was. Beliefs clearly change, but not because we choose to change them.

For some who are relatively unconscious, and therefore highly suggestible, beliefs can sometimes be altered through what amounts to a kind of self hypnosis. However, the unconsciousness implies that there's no real awareness of the structure of one's beliefs/thoughts/feelings/motivations to begin with, and so trying to alter beliefs can be problematic.

Perhaps a science that provides insight towards expansion of consciousness that has pleasant side effect is worth a try.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by truant

It seems we agree, then.

The problem arises from trying to use discreet terms to describe something that is very fluid. The 'firmer' the 'belief' the harder it is to change. Opinions are easily changed, the 'laws of Nature' are a whole different kettle of fish. When most people talk about beliefs, they tend to mean something somewhere in the middle but the conversation always gravitates to the extremes.

What would a change of beliefs or opinions accomplish? What would change? Who would benefit?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by truant

It seems we agree, then.

The problem arises from trying to use discreet terms to describe something that is very fluid. The 'firmer' the 'belief' the harder it is to change. Opinions are easily changed, the 'laws of Nature' are a whole different kettle of fish. When most people talk about beliefs, they tend to mean something somewhere in the middle but the conversation always gravitates to the extremes.

This prolly isn't the place for such a discussion, but the laws of nature are ultimately conceptual in origin, and therefore in the domain of belief also. For the baby, there isn't something called the law of gravity, just the direct sensation of rolling around on a blanket instead of on the ceiling. All laws of nature are ideas about nature, and as with all ideas, can potentially change.

In the conceptual world, which is where most humans live, infinite potential is seemingly bounded by these concepts. Ultimately, there are no laws, just ideas that are believed strongly. The idea that nature is subject to laws is also a belief. Even time and space are fundamentally ideas that are believed into apparent existence.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Reefs

What would a change of beliefs or opinions accomplish? What would change? Who would benefit?

The personal experience would change, which of course is what the person wants. The exploration of the nature of belief has the potential of collapsing ALL beliefs in the realization that infinite potential is always present, and concepts are the boundaries placed around infinity and expressed by way of sensation. IOW, belief in the ideas is what connects the apparent past to the apparent future and tends to lock various conditions of experience in place. To realize the function of belief is to collapse that function rather than empower the believer, but this is what is actually needed for transcendence.

[Arz Sra]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

This prolly isn't the place for such a discussion, but the laws of nature are ultimately conceptual in origin, and therefore in the domain of belief also. For the baby, there isn't something called the law of gravity, just the direct sensation of rolling around on a blanket instead of on the ceiling. All laws of nature are ideas about nature, and as with all ideas, can potentially change.

In the conceptual world, which is where most humans live, infinite potential is seemingly bounded by these concepts. Ultimately, there are no laws, just ideas that are believed strongly. The idea that nature is subject to laws is also a belief. Even time and space are fundamentally ideas that are believed into apparent existence.

Indeed. Nicely put.

[Arz Sra]

Originally Posted by pinky3

I just want to know if it's possible. There are some thing I don't even really know I believe, but when situations come up I surprise myself by my reactions to things.

There are some religious beliefs I really want to change, but really don't know how..?

One reacts not because of ones beliefs but because of the fear attached to them. If you can remove the fear , the belief has no power to compel you. Its just an opinion like thousand others.

[Okay]

Originally Posted by CaterpillarWoman

Agreed. And *puts on Moderator Hat for a moment* I'm going to ask nicely for people to please stop it, because it's going to derail the thread entirely. Play nicely, or don't play at all, m'kay? *takes off Moderator Hat*

I understand your concerns as a moderator, but I think sometimes it's important to let these things be expressed, especially if it's fairly civil and if it's not derailing the thread; neither of which was happening, imo.

This thread is about beliefs-- one person took issue with another person's beliefs about beliefs. I think it's important to hear what that is. Maybe someone is too rigid in how they express themselves. It's good to challenge that. Maybe another needs to challenge in order to see what they believe about someone like that. Maybe they'll both learn something from it. Or maybe the others, not directly involved, will be enlightened in some way.

I'm saying that we're adults here. Life is not always people sunnily agreeing with each other. Sometimes that should be allowed to be heard.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Okay

This thread is about beliefs-- one person took issue with another person's beliefs about beliefs.

I probably wouldn't have said anything if the person who actually started the thread and was asking the original question hadn't commented on the way the thread was going, but, hey, it's late and I'm tired (just finished an essay and turned it in), and I really do not feel the need or the desire to justify a polite request for people to please keep on topic.

Your objection, however, is noted.

[truant]

Originally Posted by Reefs

What would a change of beliefs or opinions accomplish? What would change? Who would benefit?

Nothing and no one. But that's what egos do.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by pinky3

Can you really change a deep, subconscious belief?
I just want to know if it's possible.

You bet in an INSTANT no less

[Tanemon]

Originally Posted by Arz Sra

One reacts not because of ones beliefs but because of the fear attached to them. If you can remove the fear , the belief has no power to compel you. Its just an opinion like thousand others.

This is an interesting thought. Based on my own experiences, I also feel it has some truth to it.

For many ordinary sorts of delusions of limitation (which are accompanied by fears), I believe your insight is correct.

Yet I feel this has some limits to it, as well. Or so it would seem. Have you ever read much about the history of the widespread use of LSD in the mid 1960s? I'm not talking about people in supervised experiences in research projects or hospitals or psychologists' counseling offices, but laypeople or amateurs who were experimenting. There are some instances of guys who became convinced they could fly while high on LSD, and these guys told people around them that they could do so. And then they jumped out of third-story windows (or some height of that sort) because they had no doubt and no fear - and fell and died. Not just urban legends or folklore, either.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Arz Sra

One reacts not because of ones beliefs but because of the fear attached to them. If you can remove the fear , the belief has no power to compel you. Its just an opinion like thousand others.

You cannot remove the fear without removing the thought attached to it. Fear is just an indicator, it accompanies a thought. It's a thought felt viscerally. That's the LOA explanation.

[sonde]

Originally Posted by Reefs

You cannot remove the fear without removing the thought attached to it. Fear is just an indicator, it accompanies a thought. It's a thought felt viscerally. That's the LOA explanation.

You can see that the thought does not apply to you but to the idea/self-image/thought of you.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by pinky3

I just want to know if it's possible. There are some thing I don't even really know I believe, but when situations come up I surprise myself by my reactions to things.

There are some religious beliefs I really want to change, but really don't know how..?

Did you ever believe in Santa Claus? If so, did that belief control your behavior?

And how did you drop the power of Santa in your life?

For me, I was living in Florida and I was thinking:
"But there is no snow in Florida"
"We don't have a chimney"
"How does Santa get into every home in one night?"
"Where does he get the stuff to make all the presents?"
"I've never seen reindeer fly"

And so on...before you know it, the Santa conditionings no longer control you.

It's called "perspective". If you can find the rare person who is free of beliefs, he or she can take you on a tour of your beliefs and shoot so many holes in them until you no longer can take them seriously. The beliefs will always be in your memory bank just like Santa but no longer able to control you through your fears and greed.

For me, the guys that obliterates my beliefs is Osho. Tolle is ok but not nearly as profound or daring as Osho which allows Tolle to be fairly mainstream.

Osho spoke for 35 years 100% about helping people see how the mind functions and from that you can see how it's been exploited by culture and society. You won't be able to drop beliefs in a transformational way without being able to see that you are not your mind.

Here's a link to some quotes...really profound...your ego won't like him but your soul will dance!

Osho Quotes on Mind | Osho - Mind is memory, not intelligence