Here's what I don't get about ego-loss

[Antigod]

Ok so people say they lose their sense of self when ego-loss happens.

What I don't get is, you can still see out your eyes and hear through your ears right? You're still in your body? So what do people mean when they say they feel like they are one with everything? Sounds more like delusion to me.

[Arcanum]

The sense that you are in your body somewhere is gone, and is seen to have been just imagined/assumed. The body is still there and whatever you are is a bit like looking through eyeballs in space. Nothing behind them. "One with everything" is more like not being able to find a center anywhere, and since you still ARE, it seems you are nowhere and therefore everywhere.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Antigod

Ok so people say they lose their sense of self when ego-loss happens.

What I don't get is, you can still see out your eyes and hear through your ears right? You're still in your body? So what do people mean when they say they feel like they are one with everything? Sounds more like delusion to me.

I believe ego-loss is nothing more than changing the personality. Depending on the size of the ego, the changes can be small or large. Some sense of self can be lost or all of it but the person who is still there still has a personality. It's just a different one. regards

[guthrio]

Originally Posted by Antigod

Ok so people say they lose their sense of self when ego-loss happens.

What I don't get is, you can still see out your eyes and hear through your ears right? You're still in your body? So what do people mean when they say they feel like they are one with everything? Sounds more like delusion to me.

Antigod,

Hope this helps. Please bear with the length of this explanation to your excellent question.

The struggle is not so much about finding the KEYS to enlightenment (there aren't any because we are ALREADY created as such).......

.....as it is in letting go of the LOCKS (false perceptions) by which we've erroneously allowed ourselves to perceive ourselves....as imprisoned !!

Many have laid blame for this on "ego".

I believe that this is NOT the fault of "ego". Why ?

"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be."
Lao Tzu

To paraphrase a commonsensical bit of wisdom.......the dog's reflected tail does not wag the dog.....nor does the ego we erroneously think we are define the I AM THAT WE ARE. We, as immortal, omnipresent Spiritual Beings, use the mechanism of egos like we use scuba gear apparatus for breathing under water; to navigate the "living waters" of the 4-dimensional continuum of consciousness that appears to us as length, width, height, and time. The ego, under the power of what the Hindus call maya, or illusion, is the mechanism by which the undifferentiated, omnipresent One APPEARS TO BE separate objects OUTSIDE of us.....instead of AS us. The ego, under maya, makes the One appear as the Many.

It is a false exercise to "get rid of ego" OR consider that an "ego" is blocking discovery of Self. It would be like erroneously saying to ourselves, while standing in front of a mirror, that the reflection we see is responsible for our Being, instead of understanding that our Being is why there is a reflection to see at all.

There is no ego blocking discovery of your Self, OR ego to "get rid of".....or search for, IN the mirror ! There is nothing IN the mirror TO lose !! Ego is NOT YOU. It's the reflection OF You in the "mirror" of Creation (i.e. the "reflected tail")....

"....your mind is the mirror in which the Infinite Power and Intelligence of the Universe sees itself reproduced..."
- Genevieve Behrend, Your Invisible Power

So Who are we, really....if we can still see out our eyes and hear through our ears...if we are NOT an ego inside a body ???

As author Baird Spalding also says in the reference, ”Becoming aware of yourself as a spiritual being, offspring of an infinite spiritual system and one with all the powers and capacities within that system, is the very essence of attainment. To grow from the present state of awareness of himself as a material being and into the consciousness that he is a spiritual being contains the full secret of man's attainment.' Man's nature cannot be reversed for he always remains a spiritual being. He can only reverse his notion of himself. Instead of doing this, he should reverse his mistaken idea that he is a material being and retain the truth that he is a spiritual being created in the image and likeness of God."

There is no division between consciousness (Spirit) and the mind-body. The body IS Spirit in a form we can see....not matter. The designation "physical" or "matter" is a semantic convenience similar to calling water "ice" when the atoms of water are in a lowered vibration than when its atoms are in the higher vibration that we semantically call "steam". The substance is yet water. The "substance" of the physical is Spirit, without which there would be nothing "physical", semantically or otherwise. There is ONLY consciousness (Spirit) the ENTIRETY OF WHICH acts as a single, indivisible, unit......and as an infinite Spiritual "operating" system.

ALL of Creation is Spirit / Consciousness....

The 'individual' self and the 'universal' Self are One and the Same. There is really no place where "you" begin and where Creation ends; and similarly, there is no dividing line between a "universal self"and an "individual self". "Individual" really means; cannot be divided from, or separated from, the One Whole I AM into parts. Ego gives the false appearance (illusion) that "a part OF" the Whole is "apart FROM" the Whole. Ego makes this truly infinite, indivisible Spiritual system of which you are an INSEPARABLE part seem as if YOU are a separate "point of reference", do you see?

"I, the individual self" is really the Whole I AM expressing Itself as "a part of the Whole"....you.

.......so Who does that make us as "offspring of an infinite spiritual system and one with all the powers and capacities within that system" ?

You know Who, don't you?......you don't even have to say it.

WE ARE ALL TRULY ONE.....

"Love thy neighbor as thyself".....because thy neighbor IS Thyself !

How can that be ?

The Creator is Who we, and each other, are....

There is no one else to BE any one or any thing else.

I AM THAT I AM AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO OTHER

......means exactly that.


Source(s):
Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East
Volumes 1 - 6 by Baird T. Spalding

- Genevieve Behrend, Your Invisible Power
(see last line in Chapter 13)

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I believe ego-loss is nothing more than changing the personality. Depending on the size of the ego, the changes can be small or large. Some sense of self can be lost or all of it but the person who is still there still has a personality. It's just a different one. regards

The personality is bound to change but that's like noticing something floating on the top of the ocean and concluding you now know everything else all the way into the depths of the water.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Antigod

Ok so people say they lose their sense of self when ego-loss happens.

What I don't get is, you can still see out your eyes and hear through your ears right? You're still in your body? So what do people mean when they say they feel like they are one with everything? Sounds more like delusion to me.

Once you’ve come to experience a glimpse into your original true nature where the ego sense “I, ME, MINE” dissolve, the separation between yourself and others evaporate, time and space are no longer part of perception etc., you're left with direct experience of what cannot be conveyed through limited language or finite human minds, the yogic sciences call it nirvikalpa Samadhi a type of absorption without self-consciousness, undifferentiated cognition, far from delusion, a beginning.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

Once you’ve come to experience a glimpse into your original true nature where the ego sense “I, ME, MINE” dissolve, the separation between yourself and others evaporate, time and space are no longer part of perception etc., you're left with direct experience of what cannot be conveyed through limited language or finite human minds, the yogic sciences call it nirvikalpa Samadhi a type of absorption without self-consciousness, undifferentiated cognition, far from delusion, a beginning.

And yet, most minds will read this and either loudly or subtly respond by thinking "Wow, that would be really cool for me to experience!"

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

The personality is bound to change but that's like noticing something floating on the top of the ocean and concluding you now know everything else all the way into the depths of the water.

What do you mean exactly, chris?

[Antigod]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

And yet, most minds will read this and either loudly or subtly respond by thinking "Wow, that would be really cool for me to experience!"

Well, it actually does sound like a groovy experience.

But I'm curious why its refered to as "original nature". Does this mean a state of no-mind used to be the default state of being for humans?

Is it possible to remain in this state constantly and still function in the real world?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Antigod

Well, it actually does sound like a groovy experience.

But I'm curious why its refered to as "original nature". Does this mean a state of no-mind used to be the default state of being for humans?

No, it's means your fundamental nature is not human. You are not a human right now, you just play one on duality TV.

[Antigod]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

No, it's means your fundamental nature is not human. You are not a human right now, you just play one on duality TV.

The hell? That makes no sense... if I'm not human then what am I?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Antigod

The hell? That makes no sense... if I'm not human then what am I?

That's an excellent question.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

No, it's means your fundamental nature is not human.

How can our fundamental nature be anything else other than human? It has been nurtured into being.

You are not a human right now, you just play one on duality TV.

. For most of us, life isn't a tv programme or a game, though you are free to see it from any perspective you choose.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

How can our fundamental nature be anything else other than human? It has been nurtured into being..

By who?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

By who?

I think the answer would be obvious but yours wasn't.........

it's means your fundamental nature is not human.

What do you mean? What is our fundamental nature if not human?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I think the answer would be obvious but yours wasn't.........

Your fundamental nature of being human was nurtured into being by your human nature?

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I think the answer would be obvious but yours wasn't......... What do you mean? What is our fundamental nature if not human?

Paula, in your short exchange with Arcanum you have established curiosity, if you’re sincere in satisfying this inquisitiveness perhaps contemplate by resolving what’s on the table, turning your attention inward, scrutinize belief, faith or acceptance as illusionary obstacles that may be obstructing truthful resolution. From my experience Arcanum is dead on when he says; “That’s an excellent question” since it’s a simple yet profound question you’ve asked; “if I'm not human then what am I?” am I the body, am I the mind/ego, am I the vital energy running the body/mind or am I consciousness and from where does this consciousness originate, etc.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

What do you mean exactly, chris?

What you see with someone who no longer identifies with the mind may be a change in personality but whatever personality changes take effect, they become almost meaningless to who you believe that person is. In other words, there's a noticing that the personality, the behavior, the thought patterns and everything else are not who they are. It's all secondary stuff that's occurring spontaneously. So to say so and so only has a change in personality due to ego loss is not only ironic but barely scratching the surface of what's really going on. The irony being that the change in personality is actually the loss of personality in any meaningful sense.

Noticing the truth of ones nature and ceasing mind identification is the end of all the personal transformations and ideas about personality. While you continue to identify with the mind though it will appear that hardly anything happened. As though someone merely just became more peaceful or something.

[Chris Kahler]

Even though this conversation has shifted a bit and I'm late coming in, I still wanna offer my opinions to this... it's an intriguing subject that I've experienced during meditation so I think I can explain it a bit.

If I were to define the ego in laymen terms (not talking psychology and Freud here), I would basically say the ego is everything that encompasses our bodily needs or physical being. The ego is what keeps your conscious grounded in your perception that you are the center of the universe and life is revolving around you.

When you begin talking about ego in the sense of ego-loss you really have to consider perception of the current reality, the universe, and eternal time.

Take a moment to look around you. Everything you see is your current perception of reality. You're likely not even thinking about what's going on RIGHT at this moment in BILLIONS of other peoples lives. Your focus is centered on your immediate perception of your current reality. The ego keeps you grounded in that perception.

Breaking the ego doesn't necessarily change your bodily functioning (though your brain wave frequencies are substantially lower than active thought processes carry), but rather the perception of your perception. It is almost like an awareness of being aware. Consciousness that you are conscious of things outside of the center of your reality.

On the flip side of the EGO there is the SOUL. I am unsure of your beliefs or anyone else here, but I believe in a divine source of creation. I belief in a source of consciousness that expands beyond our limited understanding and is connecting each of us through the same source.

I think true loss of the EGO turns off the perception of you perceiving your existence being the center of your time and reality and rather you see your soul as a timeless entity that is more of a whisper during all of eternity and a soul that's one in billions as everything on this planet interacts in a coexisting way.

A sense of selflessness takes place, a feeling of love builds up because you understand the true nature of people (being that we are really in this together and all from the same place of existence), and this planet, in the entire makeup of the universe, is but a tiny spec in the universe and the overall scope of eternity itself.

Hope I didn't confuse anyone, but I'm sure there are differing opinions, so please discuss any thoughts on this!

[Antigod]

Thanks Chris, that kinda makes sense. I guess it's something you need to experience for yourself to truly comprehend.

How long does it normally take to achieve via meditation?

Also, I don't believe in god or spirits and generally believe humans are meat machines and that consciousness is a brain phenomena not some kind of universal force. Will this hinder my enlightenment process?

[Chris Kahler]

Originally Posted by Antigod

Thanks Chris, that kinda makes sense. I guess it's something you need to experience for yourself to truly comprehend.

How long does it normally take to achieve via meditation?

Also, I don't believe in god or spirits and generally believe humans are meat machines and that consciousness is a brain phenomena not some kind of universal force. Will this hinder my enlightenment process?

I don't think it will hinder your enlightenment as long as you don't allow your beliefs to stay closed. You may not believe in God or spirits, but you can't say you won't ever believe they exist because that IS a limiting belief and can hinder the enlightening process.

The whole point of enlightenment is to expand upon your understanding of life as it is now. If you aren't willing to take on new understandings then enlightenment will be hard to find.

Instead of meditating on the thought of Spirituality and a divine source, meditate on the idea of philosophy. All spirituality and philosophy really are, are simply ways to rationalize morals, values, purpose, and a grander meaning to life.

Loss of the ego in the sense that I've described is as much of a philosophical viewpoint as it is a spiritual one. So rather than to say you don't believe in God or spiritual stuff, adopt a new and more open philosophy that says something like this "I don't believe in this stuff because I've never perceived or experienced it before, but if I ever were to experience and perceive this source in my life then I'd have to admit it does exist."

See that doesn't change your beliefs whatsoever, but it opens up the possibility that you might be wrong... enlightenment is all about opening up the possibilities of human error on how we behave, think, act, and what we believe and then taking on a new more evolved understanding.

I'm not trying to convince you to change your beliefs, but rather am trying to help you achieve a sense of perception that is free from ego in the sense that I've experienced. In order to break free from your perception you've got to be willing to allow it to expand or you will consciously limit yourself from ever making such an achievement.

The idea isn't necessarily to believe in it first THEN achieve it, but rather to experience it then realize you can't deny what you've experienced, thus it must exist. If you never experience it then you're perception will stay the same, which is really neither right nor wrong, it's simply your perception that you're entitled to.

So rather than see the meditation as spiritual, just open the possibility of expanding your perception, and then meditate with the idea that your undertaking a philosophical advancement. If you experience something you cannot physically explain then your opened perception MIGHT lead you to believe in things you may never have previously considered possible.

Life is too precious and short to limit possibilities!

As for how long it takes, it really depends I guess. I had been meditating for close to an hour, but I meditate regularly so it doesn't take me long to slow my brain down and reach lower more sub frequencies.

Then the thought just kind of hit me and my whole perception of life instantly shifted. It wasn't something I planned to achieve, it just happened.

Then I looked it up and come across the term ego loss relatively quickly and that's where I got the connection between my experience and the term.

Hope this is helpful to you!

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Antigod

Thanks Chris, that kinda makes sense. I guess it's something you need to experience for yourself to truly comprehend.

How long does it normally take to achieve via meditation?

Also, I don't believe in god or spirits and generally believe humans are meat machines and that consciousness is a brain phenomena not some kind of universal force. Will this hinder my enlightenment process?

You could say that, but ultimately even the one who's experiencing it is not there anymore. The ego loss or ceasing identification with the mind is the end of the one who goes about experiencing things in reference to a personal self.

Time frames are not really applicable and meditation does not produce enlightenment or ego loss. Meditation can help bring about silence if you're not too busy getting distracted by interesting mind states. If said silence occurs long enough for conceptualizing to completely stop, truth may become apparent. Again though, the silence and the realizations will occur outside of what you could say would be your conscious control. You could be meditating, playing tennis, getting in an argument with someone or you could just sit down and it may occur.

As far as what's hindering and what's helping, virtually everything you believe about everything is a hindrance because at the core of all these beliefs is the belief that there's a you who believes all these things. Only after you notice that the foundation of the belief system itself is faulty will the rest of them crumble away. There's no need to try to deprogram yourself of beliefs or fight with anything that appears to be occurring.

Sit with the questions you have and notice that there are no answers to many of them. Also notice that the mind will inevitably try to fill in the blanks and get rid of loose ends.

[Chris Kahler]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

You could say that, but ultimately even the one who's experiencing it is not there anymore. The ego loss or ceasing identification with the mind is the end of the one who goes about experiencing things in reference to a personal self.

Time frames are not really applicable and meditation does not produce enlightenment or ego loss. Meditation can help bring about silence if you're not too busy getting distracted by interesting mind states. If said silence occurs long enough for conceptualizing to completely stop, truth may become apparent. Again though, the silence and the realizations will occur outside of what you could say would be your conscious control. You could be meditating, playing tennis, getting in an argument with someone or you could just sit down and it may occur.

As far as what's hindering and what's helping, virtually everything you believe about everything is a hindrance because at the core of all these beliefs is the belief that there's a you who believes all these things. Only after you notice that the foundation of the belief system itself is faulty will the rest of them crumble away. There's no need to try to deprogram yourself of beliefs or fight with anything that appears to be occurring.

Sit with the questions you have and notice that there are no answers to many of them. Also notice that the mind will inevitably try to fill in the blanks and get rid of loose ends.

You said it a lot better than I did haha.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

Paula, in your short exchange with Arcanum you have established curiosity, if you’re sincere in satisfying this inquisitiveness perhaps contemplate by resolving what’s on the table, turning your attention inward, scrutinize belief, faith or acceptance as illusionary obstacles that may be obstructing truthful resolution. From my experience Arcanum is dead on when he says; “That’s an excellent question” since it’s a simple yet profound question you’ve asked; “if I'm not human then what am I?” am I the body, am I the mind/ego, am I the vital energy running the body/mind or am I consciousness and from where does this consciousness originate, etc.

Thanks for your response, but it was Antigod's question. I firmly believe I am a human being but arcanum says we are not. If we are not then we must be something else. If we are something else, what difference does it make to our humanity?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

What you see with someone who no longer identifies with the mind may be a change in personality but whatever personality changes take effect, they become almost meaningless to who you believe that person is. In other words, there's a noticing that the personality, the behavior, the thought patterns and everything else are not who they are. It's all secondary stuff that's occurring spontaneously. So to say so and so only has a change in personality due to ego loss is not only ironic but barely scratching the surface of what's really going on. The irony being that the change in personality is actually the loss of personality in any meaningful sense.

Noticing the truth of ones nature and ceasing mind identification is the end of all the personal transformations and ideas about personality. While you continue to identify with the mind though it will appear that hardly anything happened. As though someone merely just became more peaceful or something.

I guess that is my point, chris, on the surface the behaviour hasn't changed.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

what difference does it make to our humanity?

What does this mean?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I guess that is my point, chris, on the surface the behaviour hasn't changed.

What behavior hasn't changed?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

What behavior hasn't changed?

While you continue to identify with the mind though it will appear that hardly anything happened. As though someone merely just became more peaceful or something.

This above is what I'm referring to. A transformation may have taken place on a deep level within but from the outside it looks "as though someone merely just became more peaceful or something."

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Thanks for your response, but it was Antigod's question. I firmly believe I am a human being but arcanum says we are not. If we are not then we must be something else. If we are something else, what difference does it make to our humanity?

I see you were involved with the dialogue but it was Antigod’s question. In answer to your question, the difference is suffering.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

I see you were involved with the dialogue but it was Antigod’s question. In answer to your question, the difference is suffering.

How does suffering fit in?