Here's what I don't get about ego-loss

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Thanks for your response, but it was Antigod's question. I firmly believe I am a human being but arcanum says we are not. If we are not then we must be something else. If we are something else, what difference does it make to our humanity?

Basically, you're asking, If we're not human, what difference does it make to the human that we are?'

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Basically, you're asking, If we're not human, what difference does it make to the human that we are?'

Thanks. To be more specific I am asking,
"If we are something else e.g. energy, pure awareness, god etc, what difference does this knowledge make to the humans' experience?"

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Basically, you're asking, If we're not human, what difference does it make to the human that we are?'

Intriguing logic.

[Vic Odd]

The way suffering fits in is that if we didn't suffer we wouldn't be dissatisfied enough to seek new ways of being. If everything is just fine there is no incentive to evolve. Suffering reminds us that we have become distracted and chosen paths that lead to imbalance.

[raykilleen]

The first part of moving beyond suffering is to first recognize one's sufferings, as one continues living out of unconsciousness, one is going to drift according to certain unconscious tendencies, the same tendencies which have been manufacturing all of one's sufferings.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Reefs

Intriguing logic.

Yes, Arcanum's inquire skills seem endless…

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Thanks. To be more specific I am asking,
"If we are something else e.g. energy, pure awareness, god etc, what difference does this knowledge make to the humans' experience?"

The answer to your question is of little importance compared to noticing that your line of questioning is trying to take an impersonal truth and fit it into the confines of how it relates to being a person.

If I spent years believing I was a spider and then suddenly realized this wasn't so, I wouldn't feel the need to know how realizing I wasn't a spider affects the spiders experience.

'You' are noticing everything occurring to the human being. Every bit of it is transitory and can not be you. You can not be that which is fleeting and gone in the next moment. 'You' are completely stable and unmoving, watching all of it pass by you. There is absolutely no denial that there's a human body and mind consistently within the scope of awareness most of the time. When ray mentioned that the difference is suffering, it is because so long as you identify as something constantly in flux, passing and unstable you will also find what you believe to be yourself constantly in flux, passing and unstable. Searching for solid ground to stand on but never finding it.

It's also not a matter of willy-nilly choice. It's not like, today I think I'll believe I am awareness and see how that vibes with me.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

The answer to your question is of little importance compared to noticing that your line of questioning is trying to take an impersonal truth and fit it into the confines of how it relates to being a person.

If I spent years believing I was a spider and then suddenly realized this wasn't so, I wouldn't feel the need to know how realizing I wasn't a spider affects the spiders experience.

How could you realize you were NOT a spider?

'You' are noticing everything occurring to the human being. Every bit of it is transitory and can not be you. You can not be that which is fleeting and gone in the next moment. 'You' are completely stable and unmoving, watching all of it pass by you. There is absolutely no denial that there's a human body and mind consistently within the scope of awareness most of the time. When ray mentioned that the difference is suffering, it is because so long as you identify as something constantly in flux, passing and unstable you will also find what you believe to be yourself constantly in flux, passing and unstable. Searching for solid ground to stand on but never finding it.

It's also not a matter of willy-nilly choice. It's not like, today I think I'll believe I am awareness and see how that vibes with me.

I realize my life as a human is temporary as is everything else. Nothing stays the same. We are evolving as a human species and how we experience life in general changes from generation to generation. This is my reality and your reality seems to be the opposite i.e.....

'You' are noticing everything occurring to the human being. Every bit of it is transitory and can not be you. You can not be that which is fleeting and gone in the next moment. 'You' are completely stable and unmoving, watching all of it pass by you.

How does your reality affect my reality?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

How could you realize you were NOT a spider?



I realize my life as a human is temporary as is everything else. Nothing stays the same. We are evolving as a human species and how we experience life in general changes from generation to generation. This is my reality and your reality seems to be the opposite i.e.....



How does your reality affect my reality?

The spider is an analogy for the persistent and overwhelming belief that we are but individual persons, striving and trying to become this or that. You realize you're not a spider in the same way you realize you're not anything you really aren't. The obvious simply reveals itself as well, obvious and you notice what really is.

I'm aware of what you believe. It is precisely these beliefs that twist every word spoken to you. 'You' are not evolving. Everything about the human being in your awareness is changing. The beliefs, the appearance, the thoughts about reality and everything else. There is nothing about 'you' that can or needs to evolve or change in any way.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Thanks. To be more specific I am asking,
"If we are something else e.g. energy, pure awareness, god etc, what difference does this knowledge make to the humans' experience?"

Keeping in mind that Cris' response seems to be the most appropriate (you're trying to fit this 'something else' into your imagined human experience) I also acknowledge your unique experience, and I understand that it's this experience you wish to improve.

The problematic aspects of the human experience are all about identification with the mind/body as being what you are, and those aspects DO change with the realization that this isn't true. The body experiences death, lack, isolation, opposition and longing for connection to others, to mention but a few of the more obvious. These are all the result of identification with the body, and so when that identification is seen to be false, all of these are transcended or eliminated entirely, which radically influences the experience in a very positive way.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Keeping in mind that Cris' response seems to be the most appropriate (you're trying to fit this 'something else' into your imagined human experience) I also acknowledge your unique experience, and I understand that it's this experience you wish to improve.

The problematic aspects of the human experience are all about identification with the mind/body as being what you are, and those aspects DO change with the realization that this isn't true. The body experiences death, lack, isolation, opposition and longing for connection to others, to mention but a few of the more obvious. These are all the result of identification with the body, and so when that identification is seen to be false, all of these are transcended or eliminated entirely, which radically influences the experience in a very positive way.

So, what you're saying is that you admit we have unique experiences after all! I get it now. If I believe strongly enough that I'm not a mind/body I can transcend what I don't like and my life will become much more positive. I mean, how absurd is it that anyone could identify as anything but a person. Am I right?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Keeping in mind that Cris' response seems to be the most appropriate (you're trying to fit this 'something else' into your imagined human experience) I also acknowledge your unique experience, and I understand that it's this experience you wish to improve.

Not exactly, I want new experiences from being a new me.

The problematic aspects of the human experience are all about identification with the mind/body as being what you are, and those aspects DO change with the realization that this isn't true. The body experiences death, lack, isolation, opposition and longing for connection to others, to mention but a few of the more obvious. These are all the result of identification with the body, and so when that identification is seen to be false, all of these are transcended or eliminated entirely, which radically influences the experience in a very positive way.

So dis-identification with the body results in influencing your experiences in a positive way. Is this your true nature showing through?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

The spider is an analogy for the persistent and overwhelming belief that we are but individual persons, striving and trying to become this or that. You realize you're not a spider in the same way you realize you're not anything you really aren't. The obvious simply reveals itself as well, obvious and you notice what really is.

There is still a 'realizer' and a 'you' who notices.

I'm aware of what you believe. It is precisely these beliefs that twist every word spoken to you. 'You' are not evolving. Everything about the human being in your awareness is changing. The beliefs, the appearance, the thoughts about reality and everything else. There is nothing about 'you' that can or needs to evolve or change in any way.

If it's in my awareness there must be a me who has awareness of change.

[Arz Sra]

Originally Posted by Antigod

Ok so people say they lose their sense of self when ego-loss happens.

What I don't get is, you can still see out your eyes and hear through your ears right? You're still in your body? So what do people mean when they say they feel like they are one with everything? Sounds more like delusion to me.

Mind cannot conceive without a cause-effect relation. It needs two to operate. All that there is is Observation. Observer and the observed are products of dissection of the mind of the causal mind. 'TO transcend mind' means the dissolution of mind - the causal nexus. Duality is a product of mind - a manifestation of the divisive nature of mind upon the WHOLE.

You see , the word delusion has meaning only when the word truth is there. There is a hidden implication of non-delusion. Drop anyone of them and the other cannot stand. Delusion , non-delusion both are again products of mind.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

So, what you're saying is that you admit we have unique experiences after all! I get it now. If I believe strongly enough that I'm not a mind/body I can transcend what I don't like and my life will become much more positive. I mean, how absurd is it that anyone could identify as anything but a person. Am I right?

I think you're channeling Maguru now. Hehe.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

So dis-identification with the body results in influencing your experiences in a positive way. Is this your true nature showing through?

Yes, it's the only reason the apparent person would want to have anything to do with realizing their true nature; if the experience through the individuation improved. It is, however, liberation FROM the identification rather than liberation OF the person, and so there is inherently a great deal of resistance to this.

It would be like imagining you are a tree instead of a human, and feeling constricted by your lack of mobility and vulnerability to wood cutters, and so you want this freedom that others talk about. Then they tell you that the whole problem is your identification with treeness, and that in order to be free of your lack of mobility and vulnerability, you have to let go of your false identification.

Now you're at an impasse because the whole reason you are seeking freedom is directly related to your identification as a tree, and to let go of that identification is to let go of the whole reason for seeking freedom. To let go of the idea that you are a tree is to also release all motivation to let go, and in this the psychic energy to seek this collapses and attention is turned elsewhere in an attempt to improve your lot as a tree, which must fail.

This is the state of all seekers who stand at the threshold of truth and will not cross. It's not that it is difficult or obscure or even particularly frightening. It's just that the motivation to notice collapses at the precise moment of noticing, and one falls back into identification, over and over. We all already know the truth. It's too obvious to not know. There simply isn't the interest.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Yes, it's the only reason the apparent person would want to have anything to do with realizing their true nature; if the experience through the individuation improved. It is, however, liberation FROM the identification rather than liberation OF the person, and so there is inherently a great deal of resistance to this.

It would be like imagining you are a tree instead of a human, and feeling constricted by your lack of mobility and vulnerability to wood cutters, and so you want this freedom that others talk about. Then they tell you that the whole problem is your identification with treeness, and that in order to be free of your lack of mobility and vulnerability, you have to let go of your false identification.

If I imagined I was a tree and realized I was not, I would have to realize that I am something other than a tree, in this case a human. Now if I'm imagining I am a human being and realize that I am not, I would have to realize I am something other than a human being, in this case ???? Even if I am identified with my experiences and if I am a construct, what deems them false? The core of my natural being may have begun as innocent and pure but it cannot apply now. I cannot be other than who I am but that's not to say I don't change. I do.

Now you're at an impasse because the whole reason you are seeking freedom is directly related to your identification as a tree, and to let go of that identification is to let go of the whole reason for seeking freedom. To let go of the idea that you are a tree is to also release all motivation to let go, and in this the psychic energy to seek this collapses and attention is turned elsewhere in an attempt to improve your lot as a tree, which must fail.

This is the state of all seekers who stand at the threshold of truth and will not cross. It's not that it is difficult or obscure or even particularly frightening. It's just that the motivation to notice collapses at the precise moment of noticing, and one falls back into identification, over and over. We all already know the truth. It's too obvious to not know. There simply isn't the interest.

It is difficult to have believed something good about yourself only to realize it is false. It can shatter your dreams and break your heart. This is where the ego will not let go because it's too painful. To take this step really needs a huge carrot and is liberation from identification enough?

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Maguru

It is difficult to have believed something good about yourself only to realize it is false. It can shatter your dreams and break your heart. This is where the ego will not let go because it's too painful. To take this step really needs a huge carrot and is liberation from identification enough?

With enough self inquire there comes a time when we look back and laugh at the ideas and illusions of believes which made us afraid of giving up our individuality.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Arz Sra

Mind cannot conceive without a cause-effect relation. It needs two to operate. All that there is is Observation. Observer and the observed are products of dissection of the mind of the causal mind. 'TO transcend mind' means the dissolution of mind - the causal nexus. Duality is a product of mind - a manifestation of the divisive nature of mind upon the WHOLE.

You see , the word delusion has meaning only when the word truth is there. There is a hidden implication of non-delusion. Drop anyone of them and the other cannot stand. Delusion , non-delusion both are again products of mind.

Exactly why one needs to approach Vedanta as a direct experience rather than a philosophy

[Sekret Weapon]

There are no layers to the mind.

Instead think of the mind as only 2 interconnected fabrics. With a 3rd component - your Essence body - behind it all (do dmt and you will be able to see what your essence body looks like visually). The essence body is cloaked to human perception and that is the reason for so much of our guesswork into its nature.., into our nature.

Our 2 conscious fabrics are; a thinking fabric and an emotional fabric. The thinking fabric is the superficial fabric and the emotional fabric is the deeper fabric. The essence body is inherent through both fabrics and as well as the entire body.

If you know how to tear the fabric of the deeper emotional layer then you can gain ego loss and gain insight through this layering system into the (once cloaked) depths of essence consciousness. A better moniker for ego loss is ego dissapation. In the absence of ego comes a FLOOD of either bliss consciousness or cognitive consciousness.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

If I imagined I was a tree and realized I was not, I would have to realize that I am something other than a tree, in this case a human.

Maybe not. What happens when you notice that you're watching the tree?

Even if I am identified with my experiences and if I am a construct, what deems them false?

Experiences are neither true nor false, they're experiences.

The core of my natural being may have begun as innocent and pure but it cannot apply now. I cannot be other than who I am but that's not to say I don't change. I do.

Right, but are you what you think you are just by virtue of thinking it? If you believed you were a tree, you would say 'I can't be anything but what I am.'

It is difficult to have believed something good about yourself only to realize it is false. It can shatter your dreams and break your heart. This is where the ego will not let go because it's too painful. To take this step really needs a huge carrot and is liberation from identification enough?

Liberation is the liberation from suffering. Sometimes that's a big enough carrot.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sekret Weapon

There are no layers to the mind.

Instead think of the mind as only 2 interconnected fabrics. With a 3rd component - your Essence body - behind it all (do dmt and you will be able to see what your essence body looks like visually). The essence body is cloaked to human perception and that is the reason for so much of our guesswork into its nature.., into our nature.

Our 2 conscious fabrics are; a thinking fabric and an emotional fabric. The thinking fabric is the superficial fabric and the emotional fabric is the deeper fabric. The essence body is inherent through both fabrics and as well as the entire body.

If you know how to tear the fabric of the deeper emotional layer then you can gain ego loss and gain insight through this layering system into the (once cloaked) depths of essence consciousness. A better moniker for ego loss is ego dissapation. In the absence of ego comes a FLOOD of either bliss consciousness or cognitive consciousness.

There are no interconnected fabrics and no essence body. There isn't something that makes a DMT experience more true than another experience.

[Sekret Weapon]

arcanum,

this is the 10th site i have jumped on to.

it always begins the same.

me introducing DMT and then everybody there attempting to debunk it.

but in the end I always convert a grip of people to the molecule.

I am tired of the converting and recruiting.

I am here because you are supposed to be "smart people".

Meaning that you should either already know about dmt or research it before commentary. But if you want to try and debunk it, perhaps you should google the keywords "debunk dmt" and see what you find. Hint - no one in the history of the net has been able to debunk it. Its properties are real.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Sekret Weapon

arcanum,

this is the 10th site i have jumped on to.

it always begins the same.

me introducing DMT and then everybody there attempting to debunk it.

but in the end I always convert a grip of people to the molecule.

I am tired of the converting and recruiting.

I am here because you are supposed to be "smart people".

Meaning that you should either already know about dmt or research it before commentary. But if you want to try and debunk it, perhaps you should google the keywords "debunk dmt" and see what you find. Hint - no one in the history of the net has been able to debunk it. Its properties are real.

Well if you’re referring to DMT as an entheogen you should have made your post here:

Entheogens

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Maybe not. What happens when you notice that you're watching the tree?

"I" notice that "I" am watching.

Experiences are neither true nor false, they're experiences.

I was meaning the false identification that you mentioned.

Right, but are you what you think you are just by virtue of thinking it? If you believed you were a tree, you would say 'I can't be anything but what I am.'

If all I ever saw and all I ever experienced were trees then I might conclude I was a tree. The analogy doesn't readily exchange into reality.

Liberation is the liberation from suffering. Sometimes that's a big enough carrot.

There are many ways to alleviate suffering and I understand that your way is one of them.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sekret Weapon

arcanum,
this is the 10th site i have jumped on to.
it always begins the same.
me introducing DMT and then everybody there attempting to debunk it.
but in the end I always convert a grip of people to the molecule.
I am tired of the converting and recruiting.
I am here because you are supposed to be "smart people".
Meaning that you should either already know about dmt or research it before commentary. But if you want to try and debunk it, perhaps you should google the keywords "debunk dmt" and see what you find. Hint - no one in the history of the net has been able to debunk it. Its properties are real.

It's not about "debunking" one particular drug induced experience vs some other experience, and so it requires no extensive research about that drug. If you had been meditating and reported a spiritual experience, any experience, I would have said the same.

This comment from Chris on that thread Ray linked to says it well:

It's hardly the validity of the experience being had that is important. Rather it's the realization that nothing is quite what it seems. Holding an orange while completely sober is no more 'legitimate' than falling through a worm hole while tripping on acid. Both experiences are not truly what they seem to be but only one of those would normally prompt someone to notice deeper truths.

[raykilleen]

As the evening news:


"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration – that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."~ Bill Hicks

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

As the evening news:


"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration – that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."~ Bill Hicks

Dang! It's gonna rain today.

[RonSouther]

It is as if we put hundreds of candles in this room; all their light will become one. You cannot differentiate in the light -- which part belongs to which candle -- it has become a universal phenomenon. But still, each candle has its own flame, it has a certain individuality. The individuality has not disappeared, but it is very quiet and very silent and very nonassertive. It is almost as if it is nothing, but it is still there.

Ego loss may be "ego collapse" which is different from egolessness.

The ego is a belief system about self because we don't know self and we really need to know what life is all about..."who am I?". All belief systems collapse because none are true and what is true couldn't care less about your beliefs. Life isn't going to change for any of us. We can change our understanding of life only.

Ego loss is the failure of one belief system of self and will be replaced by a new belief system of self until that one fails.

With egolessness, you see that you are an individual yet you're not separate from the whole. We have separate bodies but even our bodies rely on nature for food and so on. Spiritually we are kindred spirits exactly like the quote above.

If you want to learn more about "ego collapse", go to youtube and search for the channel "bipolarorwakingup" and look for video #1. I think there are 24 videos now...watch them in order...awesome collection.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

With egolessness, you see that you are an individual yet you're not separate from the whole. We have separate bodies but even our bodies rely on nature for food and so on. Spiritually we are kindred spirits exactly like the quote above.

.

Akchuly, oneness doesn't mean that you are an individual who is connected to everything else. It means you are the 'everything'. You can't get to oneness from the idea of separation. That idea is an illusion.