What if you died and found out there was heaven and hell ?

[oriental_express]

Was speaking to a friend today that comes from a pentacostal church a very religious guy. I challenge him and asked what makes you believe in god ? He replied he experienced god. Bit more discussion and so on and so came the question

"If you died tommorow, where do you think your going, heaven or hell ?"

I replied "nowhere" cause didnt really believe in a religion
His obvious reply is im going to hell.

This actually got me thinking, its all good saying

"well god hasnt helped me in my hour of need"
" I need to see it to believe it " etc

But what IF there was a heaven and hell ? Is it really that bad to just put your trust in christ and just except him ? (gonna use christ as an example)

If you think about it, its actually a win win situation.

You live your life in a christian way but when you die and theres is no heaven or hell, then at least you live your life happily, nothing to lose OR

You live your life in a christian way but when you die you find out there really is a heaven and hell but because you put your trust in christ you gonna have eternal life.

Its abit like an insurance policy. All you have to do is believe.

These are the views. At the moment Im find it very hard to believe because I cant touch of feel it, most would say you just gotta have faith but at this moment in time its not enough.

Im not shutting the idea of religion off because I'm keeping an open mind about things. Im ready to accept only if experience god, untill then i'll be a free thinker.

Saying that my friend suggested all I have to do is just ask god for a sign. All I'm saying is keep an open mind.

[Angela]

What about all the other religions? If I bet on Jesus, then I'm betting against a bunch of other versions of hell, and things could get ugly in the afterlife.

Your argument makes the same kind of sense as if I ask you to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster so that you don't take a chance on drowning in the Evil Afterlife Sauce for all eternity. Why don't you believe that? Wouldn't it make sense to believe, just in case?

[AidanMatthews216]

What you're talking about is called Pascal's Wager I believe, because it's an argument that Blaise Pascal originally forwarded. It's interesting, but I believe there are certain flaws in the logic.

Firstly, if you believe something only because you think believing it will have a good outcome, is that true belief? Will self-delusion for the sake of personal gain get you into heaven?

Secondly, assuming God exists, how do you know what kind of God is up there and what kind of standards he has set for humankind? He may not be the God of the Bible, but instead the exact opposite, sending believers to hell and heathen to heaven. (Just a hypothetical situation. ) If God does exist, then who's to say he has any concern whatever for what you believe? In fact, if we take his creation as evidence of what he is like, the he probably rewards those who use what he gave them to use: eyes and ears, a rational mind, sexual organs, and the capacity for doubt.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by AidanMatthews216

Firstly, if you believe something only because you think believing it will have a good outcome, is that true belief? Will self-delusion for the sake of personal gain get you into heaven?

Aidan's right -- god would see right through you if you hedged your bets. He's omniscient, don't forget.

[oriental_express]

Thats why im keeping an open mind, Im not gonna blindly start practicing a faith just yet, all I need is a sign that "he" is real untill the day happens I'll remain a free thinker.

Im not saying believe it just to believe it because that wouldnt be real. Either believe because its in you or believe because you've come to experience it.

[seeker5]

You live your life in a Christian way but when you die you find out there really is a heaven and hell but because you put your trust in Christ you gonna have eternal life.

Even Christians disagree on who gets sent to hell and heaven. Some Christians (Baptists) say all you have to do accept Christ into your heart and you go to heaven no matter what evil acts you've done. Other Christians (Catholics), believe that you have to be a good person, and live like a good person, confess your sins regularly to be sent to heaven, go through all the sacriments, otherwise you won't go to heaven. Other Christians (no longer around in numbers) believe you were pre-ordained to either go to heaven or hell, so the best you could do was to live a good life so your neighbors would believe you were pre-ordained to go to heaven because God is obviously blessing you on Earth.

So even if you hedge your bet on Christianity, if you pick the wrong denomination out of the hundreds you can choose, you could be sent to hell instead of the heaven you thought you'd go to....

Cheers

[seeker5]

You might want to check out Erin Palvina's blog and see her view of life after death, as well as some of Steve's posts concerning death and the purpose of life. They offer a real true possibility of what can happen after death. Definetely worth checking out.

[nosussbeliefs]

Why live your life fearing God? You're just fearing yourself... Theres no heaven and hell...

Why install a judgment fearing belief system into yourself? You can what-if till the cow comes home.... But at the end of the day Jesus and religion isnt science. If he indeed existed he was just a regular human, everything in this universe is executed by the rules of science. Maybe he did find god the zen way. Everyone can find God...submission to Jesus is just like submission to the universe that zen buddhists do, only difference is christians do it via fantasy.

"God" doesnt judge anyone, other perspectives judge you, religion judges you... I'll tell you what will happen to Charles manson, the same thing that will happen to mother teresa. Both their bodies will decompose, both of their perceptions will end. There's no spirit, no soul...

You can choose a belief system that imposes fear and judgement on you... I sure as hell aint... I'm here to maximise my contentment level. And Xtianity isn't going to provide it.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by nosussbeliefs

... Theres no heaven and hell...

Yes there is.

Originally Posted by nosussbeliefs

everything in this universe is executed by the rules of science.

No it's not.

Originally Posted by nosussbeliefs

religion judges you

No it doesn't.

Originally Posted by nosussbeliefs

... I'll tell you what will happen to Charles manson, the same thing that will happen to mother teresa.

No it won't.

Originally Posted by nosussbeliefs

There's no spirit, no soul...

Yes there is.

It is annoying when a person proclaims things to you as facts/truths and has the presumption that you will believe unwaveringly in his/her superior brilliance and knowledge, as to accept all of his/her words as pure fact and truth, especially, in this specific case, concerning topics that have nothing to do with earth sciences.

Going against that point of making statements with no explanation whatsoever, however - by logic, the universe cannot be executed by rules of science, because there was the universe long before anyone existed to even make up rules of earthbound science. By logic, therefore, rules of science will have been conformed to the workings of the universe and the earthbound sciences, which were only established by people in order for them to be able to understand that portion of the universe's workings which they are capable of observing.

[AidanMatthews216]

Going against that point of making statements with no explanation whatsoever, however - by logic, the universe cannot be executed by rules of science, because there was the universe long before anyone existed to even make up rules of earthbound science. By logic, therefore, rules of science will have been conformed to the workings of the universe and the earthbound sciences, which were only established by people in order for them to be able to understand that portion of the universe's workings which they are capable of observing.

The laws of science are a model of how the observable universe works; they were discovered, not invented. As far as we can tell, it works according to those principles, and others which we have yet to discover. There may be parts of the universe we can't observe which don't operate by those principles. But that possibility doesn't prove that the universe doesn't operate by scientific laws.

[Lallymac]

If its any consolation, I haven't met a dead Christian yet who's found themselves in heaven or hell.
Lallymac

[John P]

Originally Posted by nosussbeliefs

But at the end of the day Jesus and religion isnt science. If he indeed existed he was just a regular human, everything in this universe is executed by the rules of science. Maybe he did find god the zen way. Everyone can find God...submission to Jesus is just like submission to the universe that zen buddhists do, only difference is christians do it via fantasy.

If scientific reasoning were limited to the logical processes of arithmetic, we should not get very far in our understanding of the physical world. One might as well attempt to grasp the game of poker entirely by the use of the mathematics of probability.

Vannevar Bush 1890-1974

[Akashic_Librarian]

What if there was a giant monster waiting for you when you die? Now I offer the only religion in the world that can teach you the true way to live and avoid this monster who would torment your soul for all eternity. It can't can't hurt to follow my obscure, ridiculous and immoral ways can it? I mean...JUST IN CASE.

Faith is a device of self delusion. Its only purpose is to trick people who are afraid. It plays on the desires of the mind and creates a reality too good to ignore. Just be nice and you'll have eternal bliss...

I don't think so.

Faith coerces truth into submission. Its breathes the life of a lie into Truth. Corrupting it, forcing it to Die at the hands of petty, ignorant fools.

Rational, thinking Men do not have Faith, Faith kills people.

[John P]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Rational, thinking Men do not have Faith, Faith kills people.

Oh my....

Whatever it is that you have chosen to believe in, whatever you put your "hope for a better tomorrow" into - whether it's science, Christianity or your own abilities - that's what you have faith in. If you don't have faith in it, then you don't really believe in it.
Rational, thinking men realize that it takes just as much faith to believe that there is not a heaven and a hell as it does to believe that there is.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by John P

Oh my....

Whatever it is that you have chosen to believe in, whatever you put your "hope for a better tomorrow" into - whether it's science, Christianity or your own abilities - that's what you have faith in. If you don't have faith in it, then you don't really believe in it.
Rational, thinking men realize that it takes just as much faith to believe that there is not a heaven and a hell as it does to believe that there is.

Well said.

[Groundless]

Why install a judgment fearing belief system into yourself? You can what-if till the cow comes home....

I agree. Judgement is Samsara. It does not move you toward happiness. Judgement is duality defined.

But at the end of the day Jesus and religion isnt science.

Science is not spirituality either.

If he indeed existed he was just a regular human, everything in this universe is executed by the rules of science.

Which science? Quantum physics is different than newtonian physics.

"God" doesnt judge anyone, other perspectives judge you, religion judges you...

This rings true.

I'll tell you what will happen to Charles manson, the same thing that will happen to mother teresa. Both their bodies will decompose, both of their perceptions will end. There's no spirit, no soul...

I disagree based on my own experience. I respect your belief as I was where you are about 3-4 years ago. Keep asking. Meditate. Find out for yourself. Keep an open mind. You will discover truth when you are ready.

You can choose a belief system that imposes fear and judgement on you... I sure as hell aint... I'm here to maximise my contentment level. And Xtianity isn't going to provide it.

I agree people choose things to teach themselves lessons. Chasing contentment will only lead to more discontent and emptiness. Having been raised catholic, grade school and high school catholic, I hated catholiscism for many years. I am now in the position to say it has helped some people move to a more content (your word) state of mind. This is good for those people and it is a step closer to being one with everything. Now, church doctrine, that is another matter entirely.

I wish you happiness and peace of mind.

[OlderWiser]

Originally Posted by oriental_express

I need is a sign that "he" is real untill the day happens I'll remain a free thinker.

I always find it amusing that people think that those who believe (in God, in some higher power, in something that requires some act of faith, etc.) must not be able to think freely.

Probably you didn't mean it that way, but I've certainly encountered my share of people who certainly do think that faith (see above) automatically makes you totally unable to form a coherent train of thought.

I'm happy to report that it's not true. I know a lot of people who can both think and believe in things, and also think about the things they believe.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei

[nosussbeliefs]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

Yes there is.



No it's not.



No it doesn't.



No it won't.



Yes there is.

It is annoying when a person proclaims things to you as facts/truths and has the presumption that you will believe unwaveringly in his/her superior brilliance and knowledge, as to accept all of his/her words as pure fact and truth, especially, in this specific case, concerning topics that have nothing to do with earth sciences.

Going against that point of making statements with no explanation whatsoever, however - by logic, the universe cannot be executed by rules of science, because there was the universe long before anyone existed to even make up rules of earthbound science. By logic, therefore, rules of science will have been conformed to the workings of the universe and the earthbound sciences, which were only established by people in order for them to be able to understand that portion of the universe's workings which they are capable of observing.

Why are you making science out to be a perspective? 1+1 always equals 2 whether you are there to percieve it or not. Just because the rules existed long before we were able to interperet them doesnt make a difference. When I talk about Science, I mean the equations of the universe at play, not the observer of that equation.

While i am very secure with my belief system I dont expect anyone to unwaveringly adopt any of them. Someone isnt going to believe anything i say just for the heck of it. If they see logic in my words and it overides their current belief system so be it, be annoyed, i dont care.

If paranormal activity did exist you can bet there was a scientific equation that executed it.

[nosussbeliefs]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

Yes there is.



No it's not.



No it doesn't.



No it won't.



Yes there is.

It is annoying when a person proclaims things to you as facts/truths and has the presumption that you will believe unwaveringly in his/her superior brilliance and knowledge, as to accept all of his/her words as pure fact and truth, especially, in this specific case, concerning topics that have nothing to do with earth sciences.

Going against that point of making statements with no explanation whatsoever, however - by logic, the universe cannot be executed by rules of science, because there was the universe long before anyone existed to even make up rules of earthbound science. By logic, therefore, rules of science will have been conformed to the workings of the universe and the earthbound sciences, which were only established by people in order for them to be able to understand that portion of the universe's workings which they are capable of observing.

Oh and you want to diss me for not elaborating when you did the exact same thing?

I'll elaborate 1 point. The charles manson and Mother Teresa arguement. answer me these questions do you believe right and wrong is relative? Lets go for extremes and discuss murder. Murder is morally wrong relative to our society, but on an absolute whole its just another equation being executed. The only thing able to determine right from wrong is another reference point. Relative to a rock, the rock doesnt care about murder.

On a physical level manson and Teresa are just physical beings executing actions. You connect the dots and make a judgement and determine what each deserve.

I'm not saying don't be emotional and don't judge, you're entitled to you opinion of either. If you wish a horrindus fate on Charles Manson, so be it. Fact is he isnt going to hell, not when his perception ends.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by nosussbeliefs

Oh and you want to diss me for not elaborating when you did the exact same thing?

I'll elaborate 1 point. The charles manson and Mother Teresa arguement. answer me these questions do you believe right and wrong is relative? Lets go for extremes and discuss murder. Murder is morally wrong relative to our society, but on an absolute whole its just another equation being executed. The only thing able to determine right from wrong is another reference point. Relative to a rock, the rock doesnt care about murder.

On a physical level manson and Teresa are just physical beings executing actions. You connect the dots and make a judgement and determine what each deserve.

I'm not saying don't be emotional and don't judge, you're entitled to you opinion of either. If you wish a horrindus fate on Charles Manson, so be it. Fact is he isnt going to hell, not when his perception ends.

If you mean that "paranormal activity" has a scientific explanation of it, that may be true. But the explanation presented by science is not complete and sometimes only elucidates the mechanism by which the event occurred and not the true meaning of the event itself.

Let's take the Virgin Mary. Her conception was a miracle because she was obviously a virgin and logic states that that cannot be possible because fertilization of an egg requires a sperm, thus requiring sex. The fact that she did not have any intimate relations with a man and yet became pregnant is a miracle. Can that miracle can be explained by science? Maybe it can, maybe it cannot. If our limited knowledge of science cannot explain something by logic and reason, that does not mean that the credibility of the event is diminished. It only shows that humans are finite and do not have all knowledge. Just because a miracle cannot be explained by science, that does not detract from it the fact that it is a miracle.

For many years it was thought that the earth was the center of the universe. It was then later discovered that that is not the case and the earth is revolving around the sun. Basically, someone presented their argument using the limited technology and knowledge - presenting a logical statement I assume since it was elaborated by Aristotle and Plato - that they had at the present time to arrive at the (erroneous) assumption of the geocentric model of the universe.

Similarly, the assumption that there is no spirit or soul is based on present scientific knowledge, theory, and technology (if you are speaking independent of religion). However, that present knowledge and theory may be incorrect as it was with the people who accepted the geocentric model.

You asked why someone was making science out to be a perspective. You are also using your perspective of there being no heaven and hell as logical fact. You have consciously chosen not to adopt a belief system to "maximize your contentment level." What if that contentment level isn't 1+1=2? Meaning, what if your perception of what is right and wrong is false?

[Akashic_Librarian]

Originally Posted by Groundless

Keep asking. Meditate. Find out for yourself. Keep an open mind. You will discover truth when you are ready.

Thats the most truthful thing I have read in a long time! Its even better than my answer

[AidanMatthews216]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Faith coerces truth into submission. Its breathes the life of a lie into Truth. Corrupting it, forcing it to Die at the hands of petty, ignorant fools.

Rational, thinking Men do not have Faith, Faith kills people.

How would you define faith?

Do you mean belief without evidence? If so, then I agree with you. But for many "faith" just means a strong conviction, perhaps one which requires reaching beyond ones immediate senses into something perhaps more difficult to believe, but more true to their reason and experience.

[Akashic_Librarian]

I mean faith in the religious sense...

You can have faith in your children Or faith in your favourite football team


but the type of faith that is destructive is the faith in God or Allah or whatever other imaginary friend you can create.

[AidanMatthews216]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

but the type of faith that is destructive is the faith in God or Allah or whatever other imaginary friend you can create.

Doesn't it depend on what that faith is based on? What if the person has had a direct personal experience that they believe can be explained only by a higher power?

[Akashic_Librarian]

If I have a dream wherein which, lets say, God coms down to me and tells me that...so and so must die, because it is the will of God. Now some people claim this [Ala George Bush "I was told by god to invade Iraq"] and I believe (I have religious faith) in God, then if I act on that Faith a person loses their life...Oh dear..Faith aint so good now is it.

[Lychee]

You can have faith in your children Or faith in your favourite football team

but the type of faith that is destructive is the faith in God or Allah or whatever other imaginary friend you can create.

What if you have faith in one of your family members and then they abuse you? Isn't that destructive? Claiming examples at the human-level acceptable to have faith in while negating faith in God is a double standard.

If I have a dream wherein which, lets say, God coms down to me and tells me that...so and so must die, because it is the will of God. Now some people claim this [Ala George Bush "I was told by god to invade Iraq"] and I believe (I have religious faith) in God, then if I act on that Faith a person loses their life...Oh dear..Faith aint so good now is it.

Faith is not as simplistic as you are claiming it to be. There are different levels of faith and it involves many things.

[Betrade]

Reading this thread just made me think about faith.

We all live by faith, whether it's religious, spiritual or what seems mundanem, but when looked at a bit more closely, is really quite complex.

Even the most "devout' atheist has faith in many things, and probably never even bothers to consider it.

We have faith that the earth will spin on it's axis as it always has and tomorrow the sun will rise, and that we'll wake up. people do die in their sleep, but most of us don't think that we will, at least not tonight.

We get ready to go to work, and we have faith that when we turn the key, our car will start, that our jobs, and our work will still be there, and that we won't get fired, and that when we stop in the store after work there will be milk there to take home, because we have faith that the milk producers have done their jobs, the delivery people got it to the store on time, the store people showed up for work, unloaded the trucks and put it on the shelf, just for us, or so it seems.

There are literally millions of tiny mundane things that we all have faith in, and many of those things involve others, and believing that they will continue to do what they do. If they (we) didn't for just one day, our lives would be drastically changed in ways we cannot imagine.

Most of us never even consider how intertwined our lives are, and that we really do depend on one another, whether we're aware of it or not, and this interdependence is global. We're like a giant termite mound; with everyone doing their part.

Yet, we argue about different spiritual beliefs, as though we have the answers, and we have faith in ourselves to the point that we believe that our own beliefs are correct, while we ignore the tremendous amount of faith we put into so many things at almost every moment. We just take so many things for granted, when in fact, it's an absolute miracle that we even exist.

The universe could spontaneously collapse tomorrow for all we know, but we just go about our business, assuming that everything will keep going as it always has.

I was just thinkin', and just noticed the faith we all have in so many things is tremendous, yet mostly ignored.

[nosussbeliefs]

[QUOTE=Lychee;67963]If you mean that "paranormal activity" has a scientific explanation of it, that may be true. But the explanation presented by science is not complete and sometimes only elucidates the mechanism by which the event occurred and not the true meaning of the event itself.

Let's take the Virgin Mary. Her conception was a miracle because she was obviously a virgin and logic states that that cannot be possible because fertilization of an egg requires a sperm, thus requiring sex. The fact that she did not have any intimate relations with a man and yet became pregnant is a miracle. Can that miracle can be explained by science? Maybe it can, maybe it cannot. If our limited knowledge of science cannot explain something by logic and reason, that does not mean that the credibility of the event is diminished. It only shows that humans are finite and do not have all knowledge. Just Because it provides the most contentment, suits your fantasy.

I think modern understanding of physics and the understanding of how consciousness works, the ego, the search for contentment is enough for me to draw a conclusion on how the universe operates.

Isnt it interesting that the more we have evolved in intelligence the more everything points to science?

That's right I have consiously not chosen a belief system to "maximise my contentment level" If you knew how understood how belief worked you probably wouldnt be a slave to it.

Why dont you analyse things from a scientific stand point? See why you desire there to be a heaven, or God. It provides you with security, hope, love....All thoughts that ultimately create sensations in the brain that provide you contentment. It comes down to a physical level. An ego that needs to be satisified, What is life without contentment?

You care more about whether someone in your family dies then some starving kid in africa because you are more attached to your family member. That family member provides you more contentment(physical reaction in the brain) then some kid in africa.

[Groundless]

I think modern understanding of physics and the understanding of how consciousness works, the ego, the search for contentment is enough for me to draw a conclusion on how the universe operates.

What you believe is getting in the way of being open to the possibility of something more and trying it for yourself.

Isnt it interesting that the more we have evolved in intelligence the more everything points to science?

And I am finding the opposite is true in quantum physics.

That's right I have consiously not chosen a belief system to "maximise my contentment level" If you knew how understood how belief worked you probably wouldnt be a slave to it.

Your choice of belief clouds your ability to render an impartial opinion. Though I do understand and respect your opinion.

If you were truly content, would you be defending your athiest/science point of view? If you were content and enjoying the knowledge, the fact you were right, why bother? Or is there something inside you saying, maybe there is more?

Why dont you analyse things from a scientific stand point? See why you desire there to be a heaven, or God. It provides you with security, hope, love....All thoughts that ultimately create sensations in the brain that provide you contentment. It comes down to a physical level. An ego that needs to be satisified, What is life without contentment?

I think it is more psychology than science. Let's call it what it is. People fear death. Buddhism tells us desire/attachment causes the pain/discontent. Your attachment to science is causing you some discontent, as is evidenced by your posts. People's attachment to this body, to this time, to the people in their life cause them pain.

What is life without contentment?

Life is mostly discontentment. The more I let go my desires the happier I get...this I like.

Back to the thread question.

If there was a heaven and/or hell (in the traditional sense) then I guess I was wrong.

[Akashic_Librarian]

1. Life means suffering.

To live means to suffer, because the human nature is not perfect and neither is the world we live in. During our lifetime, we inevitably have to endure physical suffering such as pain, sickness, injury, tiredness, old age, and eventually death; and we have to endure psychological suffering like sadness, fear, frustration, disappointment, and depression. Although there are different degrees of suffering and there are also positive experiences in life that we perceive as the opposite of suffering, such as ease, comfort and happiness, life in its totality is imperfect and incomplete, because our world is subject to impermanence. This means we are never able to keep permanently what we strive for, and just as happy moments pass by, we ourselves and our loved ones will pass away one day, too.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

The origin of suffering is attachment to transient things and the ignorance thereof. Transient things do not only include the physical objects that surround us, but also ideas, and -in a greater sense- all objects of our perception. Ignorance is the lack of understanding of how our mind is attached to impermanent things. The reasons for suffering are desire, passion, ardour, pursue of wealth and prestige, striving for fame and popularity, or in short: craving and clinging. Because the objects of our attachment are transient, their loss is inevitable, thus suffering will necessarily follow. Objects of attachment also include the idea of a "self" which is a delusion, because there is no abiding self. What we call "self" is just an imagined entity, and we are merely a part of the ceaseless becoming of the universe.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

The cessation of suffering can be attained through nirodha. Nirodha means the unmaking of sensual craving and conceptual attachment. The third noble truth expresses the idea that suffering can be ended by attaining dispassion. Nirodha extinguishes all forms of clinging and attachment. This means that suffering can be overcome through human activity, simply by removing the cause of suffering. Attaining and perfecting dispassion is a process of many levels that ultimately results in the state of Nirvana. Nirvana means freedom from all worries, troubles, complexes, fabrications and ideas. Nirvana is not comprehensible for those who have not attained it.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

There is a path to the end of suffering - a gradual path of self-improvement, which is described more detailed in the Eightfold Path. It is the middle way between the two extremes of excessive self-indulgence (hedonism) and excessive self-mortification (asceticism); and it leads to the end of the cycle of rebirth. The latter quality discerns it from other paths which are merely "wandering on the wheel of becoming", because these do not have a final object. The path to the end of suffering can extend over many lifetimes, throughout which every individual rebirth is subject to karmic conditioning. Craving, ignorance, delusions, and its effects will disappear gradually, as progress is made on the path.

Taken from ~ The Four Noble Truths


and I have to say...I agree...