Being Xtian sucks

[CroMagna]

I've talked about this before, so sorry, but I still haven't worked through this. I'm confused. There's nothing I like about Xtianity. Your mind is controlled by a parent figure who threatens to torment you forever if you don't do the right thing. But he refuses to make himself clear about what the right thing is:

I'm currently reading the Bible (I'm on I Samuel) and have read some atheist articles and I'm becoming more and more of an unbeliever.

Here's why:

1. God refuses to make himself known to his children. In the Old Testament, God regularly talks to Adam and Eve and the Israelites. He also communicates with angels. This did not rob them of their free will, as Lucifer, Adam, Eve, and Israelites all chose to disobey God. So why does God no longer talk to people?

2. God allows suffering. An omnipotent God could achieve all that he wants to achieve without having to make people suffer. An omnibenevolent God would be invested in doing so.

3. Begotten son. Why didn't God just create billions of begotten sons and daughters in the first place? Jesus was created perfect, yet he still has free will. God is perfect, yet he has free will. So why aren't we created perfectly?

4. Lucifer rebelled. Angels supposedly don't have free will, yet Satan rebelled. How is that possible?

5. Thousands of gods. There have been thousands, probably millions of gods and thousands of religions. All the people in these various religions believe their religion is the one true religion. So who's to say if your religion is the right one?

6. Intermediate steps. An omnipotent god doesn't need to go through intermediate steps such as the fall from Eden, the Old Testament, the sacrifice of Christ, and current suffering. All could be achieved in nanoseconds. We could have been born and lived in heaven in the first place, no suffering, no death.

7. Hell. This has to be the worst concept that humans have ever devised. It's the perfect scare tactic. Why would a loving god send ANYONE to a place like that, including Hitler? Why do you go because he didn't make himself clear, because you don't want to serve him, because you were gay, because you fornicated, because you didn't pay your tithes, and other absurd reasons? Why would an unbaptized infant go to hell through no fault of their own?

8. Aborted zygotes saved. It's unfair that fetuses that get aborted automatically go to heaven. They never had to suffer, they never had to deal with doubt, they just automatically go to a place of perfect bliss before they're even born.

9. Animals. Animals don't have to have faith. Their characters aren't judged as good or evil. They just automatically go to heaven and that's not fair either.

Questions: Are babies who die babies for ever? Children? Midgets? The list goes on.

So I have sincere doubts about the veracity of this wicked cult. But I feel trapped in it because I'm still afraid to die and end up in hell for not having faith.

Should just learn to embrace God and the fact that I'm still Xtian or should I try to escape?

[Luciddd]

Sigh....... this has been debated all the way to hell and back. While classic Xtianity isnt the most open religion saying it sucks and insult isnt a very good example of being any better.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Should just learn to embrace God and the fact that I'm still Xtian or should I try to escape?

Why are you putting that decision in our hands? We can't make it for you.

[SkylightMT]

You ask excellent questions.

I resolved this issue when I was in my twenties by deciding Christianity was not for me. I would not serve such a cruel god, hell or not.

You might try reading Saving Jesus from the Church by Robin Myers. It reveals a view of Christianity that might work for you if you want to remain a Christian. It also addresses some of the questions you are asking.

[CroMagna]

Thank you Skylight. It's good to know I'm not alone.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

I've talked about this before, so sorry, but I still haven't worked through this. I'm confused. There's nothing I like about Xtianity. Your mind is controlled by a parent figure who threatens to torment you forever if you don't do the right thing. But he refuses to make himself clear about what the right thing is:

I'm currently reading the Bible (I'm on I Samuel) and have read some atheist articles and I'm becoming more and more of an unbeliever.

When I first read the bible I got the impression it was not different from a history book that had a lot of blank pages which got filled in with a lot of nonsense over the centuries.

And after reading Meister Eckhart it turned out that there was indeed a very profound message hidden within all those silly stories.

So, I think the bible contains more than 95% filler and less than 5% message which can't be taken literally because it's kinda coded. But if you know the code, amazing stuff comes up.

[cylon]

I completely understand where you are coming from. There is not a sentence in your OP that I have not at one time or another shouted from the rooftops myself.

It's a crappy religion. It will really fcuk with your head. It could even ruin your life. Buyer beware.

I must put out this major caveat though: the teachings of Jesus, and the modern day evangelical church, are not even remotely the same thing. If you want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, I can't blame you. But, just keep in mind, that there's a helpless baby in that bath water and only someone like you can take care of it.

But, if you want some advice from someone who years ago was exactly where you are right now, it would be this:

Learn to forgive. Learn to love. Learn to accept.

Does that sound familiar? Yes. Those are the same words of all the hypocritical and callous Christians who hide their bitterness and hate behind a shield of self-righteousness.

Show them, and the world, that YOU can be the living embodiment of the values they claim to espouse: peace, humility, love, and compassion.

They can't do it, even though they claim ownership of those concepts. You CAN do it, and all without acting like it was your idea. The "Golden Rule" is a fundamental law of nature and it is much older than 2,000 years. But it never goes out of style.

Best of luck.

[moonrambler]

CroMagna, I haven't read the book Skylight recommends, but earlier tonight I was thinking something that I wonder if that book addresses . . . that if you want to be a Christian, maybe you need to cut to the chase.

Like maybe you need to focus on the central meaning of Jesus, without all the trappings of that gigantic piece of literature attached to him.

[Derelle]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

I've talked about this before, so sorry, but I still haven't worked through this. I'm confused. There's nothing I like about Xtianity. Your mind is controlled by a parent figure who threatens to torment you forever if you don't do the right thing. But he refuses to make himself clear about what the right thing is:

I'm currently reading the Bible (I'm on I Samuel) and have read some atheist articles and I'm becoming more and more of an unbeliever.

Here's why:

1. God refuses to make himself known to his children. In the Old Testament, God regularly talks to Adam and Eve and the Israelites. He also communicates with angels. This did not rob them of their free will, as Lucifer, Adam, Eve, and Israelites all chose to disobey God. So why does God no longer talk to people?

2. God allows suffering. An omnipotent God could achieve all that he wants to achieve without having to make people suffer. An omnibenevolent God would be invested in doing so.

3. Begotten son. Why didn't God just create billions of begotten sons and daughters in the first place? Jesus was created perfect, yet he still has free will. God is perfect, yet he has free will. So why aren't we created perfectly?

4. Lucifer rebelled. Angels supposedly don't have free will, yet Satan rebelled. How is that possible?

5. Thousands of gods. There have been thousands, probably millions of gods and thousands of religions. All the people in these various religions believe their religion is the one true religion. So who's to say if your religion is the right one?

6. Intermediate steps. An omnipotent god doesn't need to go through intermediate steps such as the fall from Eden, the Old Testament, the sacrifice of Christ, and current suffering. All could be achieved in nanoseconds. We could have been born and lived in heaven in the first place, no suffering, no death.

7. Hell. This has to be the worst concept that humans have ever devised. It's the perfect scare tactic. Why would a loving god send ANYONE to a place like that, including Hitler? Why do you go because he didn't make himself clear, because you don't want to serve him, because you were gay, because you fornicated, because you didn't pay your tithes, and other absurd reasons? Why would an unbaptized infant go to hell through no fault of their own?

8. Aborted zygotes saved. It's unfair that fetuses that get aborted automatically go to heaven. They never had to suffer, they never had to deal with doubt, they just automatically go to a place of perfect bliss before they're even born.

9. Animals. Animals don't have to have faith. Their characters aren't judged as good or evil. They just automatically go to heaven and that's not fair either.

Questions: Are babies who die babies for ever? Children? Midgets? The list goes on.

So I have sincere doubts about the veracity of this wicked cult. But I feel trapped in it because I'm still afraid to die and end up in hell for not having faith.

Should just learn to embrace God and the fact that I'm still Xtian or should I try to escape?

I wish it wasn't so late and I didn't have to get up and go to work in the morning. So I'll say a few things and hop on tomorrow.

First off you must be in your 20s or late teens. This is how I used to think a long time ago. So I understand where you are coming from and where you are going. Atheism however was never really an option. I just thought if I call God out he would answer me. Well long story short God does answer you but in ways you never suspect. I realized that the God of the Bible is basically a cult figure. The God of the Bible is a Canaanite God infused with a Egyptian-Hebrew God. This is not the omnipresent God of the universe. These gods were the creation of men's legends that codified these in scrolls that eventually became books. Just because a man makes a story a few thousand years ago does not mean it has the answers to a God that is in reality unknowable unless you study it's creation and then you will only understand a small portion of the physical aspects of God. This fails to mention the multi-dimensional aspects of God. There are clues but God is a mystery that humans will always try to fathom. I want to say much more but it will have to wait.

[cylon]

Even though we all consciously recognize the God of the Bible is crap, we should acknowledge that this particular God is so deeply engrained in our shared culture and heritage that it seems almost impossible to think about the concept of God in an objective fashion. Family, friends, perhaps warm childhood memories, all locked up in this specific religion. It's hard to throw away. Hard to think critically about it without the fear of Hell™. One doesn't walk away from these things lightly if they've spent enough time immersed in them.

The quickest way to deprogram yourself is to ask yourself if you are a loving being. Then ask yourself, what are the limits of your love (probably won't take that long). Then compare your loving self to the God of the Bible, and ask yourself, what are the limits of His Love. This will take significantly longer.

If the God you worship loves less than you he is no God worth worshiping.

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

CroMagna, I haven't read the book Skylight recommends, but earlier tonight I was thinking something that I wonder if that book addresses . . . that if you want to be a Christian, maybe you need to cut to the chase.

Like maybe you need to focus on the central meaning of Jesus, without all the trappings of that gigantic piece of literature attached to him.

I can also recommend 'A Course in Miracles', ostensibly written by Jesus himself to answer some of these questions.

All the best, Zeitgeist

[Merrick1]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Should just learn to embrace God and the fact that I'm still Xtian or should I try to escape?

Your feelings are fully understandable. But a good thing to look at is the information given in the Talmud that the Bible is written in a highly sophisticated coded language. And there is a lot of evidence that it is so. There is far more to the Bible than what meets the eye. In fact, the knowledge contained therein appears practically bottomless from the experience I personally have had with decoding some of the message.

As far as Lord Jesus is concerned:

There is a thread in another part of this forum asking a question whether unconditional love really exists. Yes, it does. And Lord Jesus is a personification of that Love, no matter how he comes accross to you from reading the New Testament.

I've never been a Christian in a religious sense, with all the literal interpretations, all the dogma. But for a long time now I have been a devote follower of Lord Jesus. Both my girlfriend and I have a beautiful personal relationship with Him, she, being a psychic, is aware of Him and can talk with Him very much like she would talk with you or me. Asking questions, asking for a guidance, help. And He responds. And this is nothing exclusive. Anyone can do that. Just forget all the dogma, open your heart to Him and He will come.

Merrick

[pianoperformer]

CroMagna,

I think you have a need to be something. If it's not Christian, it's atheist.

I think there's a danger in letting the pendulum swing completely the other way. Eventually you'll be unhappy with that other extreme direction, and swing back to the other end. This is an endless cycle.

Just because the Christian God may not be true does not mean that God is not true.

I do not consider myself a Christian, but I do consider myself a follower of Christ. Not Christ in the Christian sense, but as the perfection of goodness and love—as a consciousness in which we all participate, and this has played a large part in my life.

Do not focus so much on the theology (what you should believe), but focus more on loving and being loved by God.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Reefs

When I first read the bible I got the impression it was not different from a history book that had a lot of blank pages which got filled in with a lot of nonsense over the centuries.

And after reading Meister Eckhart it turned out that there was indeed a very profound message hidden within all those silly stories.

So, I think the bible contains more than 95% filler and less than 5% message which can't be taken literally because it's kinda coded. But if you know the code, amazing stuff comes up.

Why is the message hidden? Why doesn't God make his desires clear, especially if there's hell involved? That seems rather rude of Him. And what's up with the 95% filler?

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by cylon

I completely understand where you are coming from. There is not a sentence in your OP that I have not at one time or another shouted from the rooftops myself.

It's a crappy religion. It will really fcuk with your head. It could even ruin your life. Buyer beware.

I must put out this major caveat though: the teachings of Jesus, and the modern day evangelical church, are not even remotely the same thing. If you want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, I can't blame you. But, just keep in mind, that there's a helpless baby in that bath water and only someone like you can take care of it.

But, if you want some advice from someone who years ago was exactly where you are right now, it would be this:

Learn to forgive. Learn to love. Learn to accept.

Does that sound familiar? Yes. Those are the same words of all the hypocritical and callous Christians who hide their bitterness and hate behind a shield of self-righteousness.

Show them, and the world, that YOU can be the living embodiment of the values they claim to espouse: peace, humility, love, and compassion.

They can't do it, even though they claim ownership of those concepts. You CAN do it, and all without acting like it was your idea. The "Golden Rule" is a fundamental law of nature and it is much older than 2,000 years. But it never goes out of style.

Best of luck.

I agree that this could ruin a person's life. Some people even go mad because of the cognitive dissonance.

Are you Christian?

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Merrick1

Your feelings are fully understandable. But a good thing to look at is the information given in the Talmud that the Bible is written in a highly sophisticated coded language. And there is a lot of evidence that it is so. There is far more to the Bible than what meets the eye. In fact, the knowledge contained therein appears practically bottomless from the experience I personally have had with decoding some of the message.

As far as Lord Jesus is concerned:

There is a thread in another part of this forum asking a question whether unconditional love really exists. Yes, it does. And Lord Jesus is a personification of that Love, no matter how he comes accross to you from reading the New Testament.

I've never been a Christian in a religious sense, with all the literal interpretations, all the dogma. But for a long time now I have been a devote follower of Lord Jesus. Both my girlfriend and I have a beautiful personal relationship with Him, she, being a psychic, is aware of Him and can talk with Him very much like she would talk with you or me. Asking questions, asking for a guidance, help. And He responds. And this is nothing exclusive. Anyone can do that. Just forget all the dogma, open your heart to Him and He will come.

Merrick

Why is the Bible written in a sophisticated coded language? Why not in terms that everyone can understand. Why does there even need to be a Bible? God could just make his message clear to us directly.

If Jesus loves everyone unconditionally why does he send anyone to a place of endless torture?

You can actually talk to Jesus? Care to elaborate?

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Why does there even need to be a Bible? God could just make his message clear to us directly.

If Jesus loves everyone unconditionally why does he send anyone to a place of endless torture?

There maybe doesn't need to be a Bible. Because Jesus was Jewish, the New Testament got strapped onto the Old Testament, but they're incongruent.

Plenty of Christians don't believe Jesus/God sends anyone to a place of endless torture.

[CroMagna]

But Jesus talks about Hell countless times in the NT.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Merrick1

There is a thread in another part of this forum asking a question whether unconditional love really exists. Yes, it does. And Lord Jesus is a personification of that Love, no matter how he comes accross to you from reading the New Testament.

I've never been a Christian in a religious sense, with all the literal interpretations, all the dogma. But for a long time now I have been a devote follower of Lord Jesus. Both my girlfriend and I have a beautiful personal relationship with Him, she, being a psychic, is aware of Him and can talk with Him very much like she would talk with you or me. Asking questions, asking for a guidance, help. And He responds. And this is nothing exclusive. Anyone can do that. Just forget all the dogma, open your heart to Him and He will come.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I do not consider myself a Christian, but I do consider myself a follower of Christ. Not Christ in the Christian sense, but as the perfection of goodness and love—as a consciousness in which we all participate, and this has played a large part in my life.

Do not focus so much on the theology (what you should believe), but focus more on loving and being loved by God.

These are the kinds of experiences I mean.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

But Jesus talks about Hell countless times in the NT.

Well, I don't know about countless, CroMagna

First off, biblical scholars know how much of the Bible is likely to be authentic and how much was added later and doesn't belong. You can read about this. Christian pastors who have degrees from reputable schools know all this too. I don't think they necessarily want their congregations to know.

It's possible God created an actual Hell that sinners eventually would have to go to. But since God couldn't stand that idea, or because it didn't seem like a good ending to the story, he sent Jesus to die on the cross . . . to save everyone. I don't buy into the theory that anyone who doesn't believe in the Christian theology goes to Hell. You don't have to believe it either.

[Merrick1]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

But Jesus talks about Hell countless times in the NT.

I don't think He does. The Gospels are a second, third hand account of His teachings. Plus doctored, adjusted to the political situation of the areas where they were written. There is a lot contradiction among the individual gospels. I'm actually repeating some of what moonrambler has said already.

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Why is the Bible written in a sophisticated coded language? Why not in terms that everyone can understand. Why does there even need to be a Bible? God could just make his message clear to us directly.

Well, you'll have to ask God that question, I'm afraid .

Originally Posted by CroMagna

If Jesus loves everyone unconditionally why does he send anyone to a place of endless torture?

He definitely does not. But I do understand that it may appear so if some of the words ascribed to Him are taken literally.

Originally Posted by CroMagna

You can actually talk to Jesus? Care to elaborate?

I can talk to Him just about as most people can. But my girlfriend can have a normal conversation with Him. She sees Him, feels His energy, hears Him. I have mentioned some experiences in the "Did Jesus really exist?" thread recently. Just yesterday evening I received another initiation into the Consciousness of Christ.

My ex-colleague, with whom I used to do psychotherapies, didn't have much reverence towards Lord Jesus. She grew up in a Christian family and she could see lots of hypocrisy in the organized religion and in her own family. I introduced her to Lord Jesus in a completely different way and now she is a devote follower herself of Him and of Virgin Mary. And this change of attitude came about thanks to her direct communion with these holy people.

I know, not everyone is that perceptive and the Bible does give people lots of material to turn them away. But you may at least give them a chance to show you what the teaching is really all about .

Merrick

[Clint Cora]

I think there are more and more people out there who have given up on any organized religion whatsoever. In this day and age, you have the freedom to believe in whatever you want to and don't want to. It's your personal choice. I'm assuming that you live in a country where such choices are pretty open.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by cylon

Even though we all consciously recognize the God of the Bible is crap, we should acknowledge that this particular God is so deeply engrained in our shared culture and heritage that it seems almost impossible to think about the concept of God in an objective fashion.

Indeed. I had that issue for a very long time. I was blocked by my own image of what I call a "gatekeeper god", who sometimes answered and sometimes didn't). I couldn't get past that image, no matter what I did or how I tried to reason it away. "Not believing in" didn't really do any good, because the archetype was so profoundly ingrained, almost like a reflex.

What finally did it for me was a university unit I'm doing on archeology and the history of ancient Israel. I realised, through the readings, that Yahweh was the god of Israel, of the Israelites, a tribal deity (for more than a thousand years, the Israelites weren't even monotheists, though they did have a special relationship with their tribal god). And I'm not an Israelite, so Yahweh isn't my god. (Never liked him much, anyway, to be honest; he's fickle and mean, IMHO.)

Realising that Yahweh is NOT my god was what finally broke that last chain. I walked around for days grinning, actually.

Originally Posted by cylon

If the God you worship loves less than you he is no God worth worshiping.

Very well said.

Just as a side note, if anyone is interested in getting the scoop on the history of Israel, I recommend "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman. Well written, easy to read and understand, not too technical or filled with jargon, very well balanced.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

But Jesus talks about Hell countless times in the NT.

You know who I'd recommend reading? Renaissance humanists, and Milton. Read Paradise Lost. Milton's stated purpose was to "justify the ways of God to man." It opens up tons of new perspectives on the Bible, if you really read it closely and carefully (and possibly the reason I got so much out of it was that I had an entire class on Milton with an AMAZING professor... but still, I think there's a lot there even if you study it on your own!).

It's some of the best commentary on Christianity I've ever seen. I'm not saying it's exactly what the Bible means, but it's a fascinating interpretation. And it's also fabulous literature.

Hail horrours, hail
Infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell
Receive thy new Possessor: One who brings
A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time.
The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.

[guthrio]

CroMagna,

Truth is not based on the name under which you catagorize your beliefs (Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, or whatever). Our Creator did not create human beings as Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, or any religious faiths we associate with these or any other names (whether I've named them here or not!). These names, believed and acted upon as if relevant, only serve to hide the FACT that the Creator made ALL OF US of His Spirit and AS His Image. Our Creator created human beings, AS HIS VERY SPIRIT AND IMAGE.

Belief is what we choose to tell OURSELVES is true about Reality until we experience what IS true regardless what we believe. Beliefs can be predicated upon false perceptions (lies) propped up to masquerade as Truth.

It's really as simple as 2+2=4. How ? Think about it.

2+2=4, whether you sum the equation correctly or not !!

Don't believe me? Try MAKING 2+2=5. It doesn't work does it?

We cannot even MAKE 2+2=4, either. WHY ??

Because neither Truth nor Perfection can change or BE changed !

We are absolutely free to choose to believe that 2+2=5 for as long as we want. We may (or may not) recognize that we have MADE A MISTAKE, in perception or conduct, certainly. Regardless, the consequences of INCORRECTLY applying the PERFECT principles governing this mathematics equation are inescapable....but correctable. It is only when the correct perception IS CORRECTLY APPLIED, that the resultant "answer" enables us to declare the truth of that experience to ourselves. The consequences of CORRECTLY applying the principles of mathematics (or those governing our own Being) are ALSO inescapable, to our eternal good.

THIS is the operative principle behind "Ye shall reap what you sow".....for good or ill.

As a matter of Truth, the ONLY way you'd know if you have made a mistake in perception or operation is BECAUSE the principles of Life operate perfectly, without the slightest deviation, variation, or attenuation at ANY time or in ANY place for ANYBODY!

Otherwise, you would not know what electricity perfectly does FOR you when you utilize it correctly. Or you wouldn't know what electricity perfectly does TO you when operated incorrectly, either.

If you consider this carefully, what is referred to as, goodness including love, patience, kindness, self-control, faithfulness and gentleness", is analogous to what the immutable principle of electricity does FOR you when operated consistent with its purpose.

Conversely, what is referred to as "The acts of our brokenness, hatred, discord, sexual immorality, dissensions, greed, laziness, hatred, jealousy, fits of rage, drunkenness, envy, selfish ambition and the like....." are analogous to what the immutable principle of electricity does TO you when it is operated incorrectly.

This is about G I G O.....

Garbage in, garbage out....perfectly !!

Perfect input, perfect output....perfectly !!

NOT BECAUSE there is inherent EVIL in US!

NOT BECAUSE there is inherent EVIL in God's Creation.

NOT BECAUSE we are flawed or "born in sin and full of sin".

It is because the infinite SYSTEM of which we are an inseparable part operates flawlessly and impartially....

It is because this infinite SYSTEM was created by the same Source Who created perfect principles of Life, such as mathematics which operate undeviatingly to create ONLY 4 as the answer to 2+2.

Please bear with the length of this explanation to your excellent question.

The gift in BEING FREE to make mistakes (in other words, to be wrong) is precisely so that you can LEARN HOW TO CORRECT THEM....not in being penalized (hell) for making mistakes. This is how we learn to manifest 4 by adding 2 plus 2, and by recognizing that 4 is the correct solution in EVERY instance.

When you realize that you have made a mistake in a mathematical operation, what do you do?

You correct the mistake, right?

We are no more obligated to beat ourselves up for making mistakes than we are required to keep making the same mistake over and over and over again.

After the mistake is corrected and the answer is revealed, we must acknowledge to ourselves that this is so.

.....and then, go on to the next problem in our perception that needs correction.

Moreover, we are no more required to keep making the same mistake (sin) over and over again than we are obligated to REMAIN unaware of the correct answer (the Truth about ourselves) for ever and ever !!

We can choose to believe that 2+2=5 for eternity until we have acquired FOR OURSELVES the necessary knowledge of the immutable principle that correctly sums the answer.

But understand: even AFTER we have acquired the correct knowledge, using it INCORRECTLY will not change the correct answer (Truth !) one whit !

Why ? I think you NOW know the reason why, don't you ?

Please understand that I am only using this mathematical example as a metaphor for THAT which is not only real, but is also true, and which ALSO cannot change.

Truth CANNOT change. ONLY our perception and APPLICATION of it can.....change or be changed.

As author Baird Spalding says in the reference, ”Becoming aware of yourself as a spiritual being, offspring of an infinite spiritual system and one with all the powers and capacities within that system, is the very essence of attainment. To grow from the present state of awareness of himself as a material being and into the consciousness that he is a spiritual being contains the full secret of man's attainment.' Man's nature cannot be reversed for he always remains a spiritual being. He can only reverse his notion of himself. Instead of doing this, he should reverse his mistaken idea that he is a material being and retain the truth that he is a spiritual being created in the image and likeness of God."

WE ARE PERFECT EVEN AS OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT......

.....because the Creator created US and ALL the principles of Life out of His Own perfect, Divine pattern.

......whether you know that this is so, whether you do not believe this is so, or whether you are ignorant that this is so.

….and as also indicated in the reference, "Perfection does not come from projecting our own ideas but from awakening to the knowledge that it is already the established order of things."

That is the lesson we can learn from Adam and Eve….

Perfection, Itself created US perfectly.....though most of us have yet to appreciate the awesome majesty of our created state. But we are learning.....

I AM THAT I AM AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO OTHER.

2+2=4 and beside 4 there is no other answer.

The same SOURCE who created the perfect principles of mathematics which operate immutably to create ONLY 4 as the correct sum of 2+2 ALSO CREATED US out of perfect principles!! Though we were ALL lovingly and perfectly created by our Father with PERFECT qualities, WE have chosen to act as if they could be utilized inconsistently with their original purpose.

Truth is as obvious as 2+2 can NEVER be 4 AND also 5.

The Creator Himself IS the VERY pattern by which mankind was made. Our Father also created Jesus just as He created us...the exact Spirit and Likeness of Himself. Jesus' message and reason for coming to this earthly dimension was to show us, in as stark, as uncompromising, and as definitive a manner as possible, that we are as He is, which is as our Creator endowed us all to be, and that is as immortal, Spiritual beings who are the Spirit and Image of our Creator. We are NOT physical beings. We are Spiritual Beings like He is!

Believing or acting as if we are physical, dying, imperfect Beings instead of the perfect, immortal, Spiritual beings we were created to be, and ARE....is like erroneously accepting that 2+2 CAN be 4 and also 5.

There is an inescapable consequence to this perception, which is, simply, that you remain in error (in ignorance) of the truth, until you realize it AND act accordingly with it. As soon as we correct the error, that act ERASES the effect of the ignorance immediately so that we SEE and EXPERIENCE for ourselves the FACT which has been perfectly and ALWAYS true even BEFORE we were aware of our error.

We see that the correct answer NEVER CHANGED AT ALL......nor, in all Reality, have we! Do you see?

Is it not obvious that whether you KNOW or DO NOT KNOW that you are in error, and continue to proceed erroneously, anyway, that the correct answer (Truth) is not in the slightest bit affected?

A lie (false perception) believed CAN NEVER be the Truth !! Ask Adam and Eve if a false perception believed could ever be the Truth.

But the ADVERSE EFFECT upon your perception of Truth remains, doesn't it? The correct answer CAN NEVER come out of erroneous perception or operation.

ONLY CORRECTING THE ERROR IN PERCEPTION AND APPLICATION CAN DO THIS !!

G I G O.....perfectly !!

Ignorance of the unchangeable Truth of ourselves (that we are perfectly created) is the cause of sin, PRECISELY like ignorance of the perfect operation of a mathematical equation ALWAYS and INVARIABLY produces incorrect results. The solution can only be experienced when we recognize AND apply the Truth to ourselves or to the equation.

Can there be ANYTHING more obvious than that we are best served when we work with the UN-changing Truth of our Being, not with EVER-changing beliefs about who we think we are?

I'd say that's a pretty good way to learn about the wonder of our Selves and especially about the Giver of such a gift as the capability to make mistakes. Through such a gift, you realize how serious our Creator is to have us freely discover the Absolute Truth about ourselves, FOR ourselves....Don't you ?

Hope this and the source, below helps you...


Source(s):
Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East
Volumes 1 - 6 by Baird T. Spalding

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

You know who I'd recommend reading? Renaissance humanists, and Milton. Read Paradise Lost. Milton's stated purpose was to "justify the ways of God to man." It opens up tons of new perspectives on the Bible, if you really read it closely and carefully (and possibly the reason I got so much out of it was that I had an entire class on Milton with an AMAZING professor... but still, I think there's a lot there even if you study it on your own!).

It's some of the best commentary on Christianity I've ever seen. I'm not saying it's exactly what the Bible means, but it's a fascinating interpretation. And it's also fabulous literature.

There was a Milton class offered at your school too? Cool, I took a Milton class at my school which was offered by an amazing professor who had dinner with Bill Clinton and went on a date with Jennifer Biels (Flashdance, The L Word).

I didn't find Paradise Lost that eye-opening. For example, the rebellion between the devils and the angels didn't make sense. How does one determine who wins a war if the soldiers are already dead?

I don't see how that book justifies the ways of God to man. It was excellent literature though.

[Derelle]

How can one with no inclination of God espouse the very nature of God? Does anybody ask common sense questions? If God created the universe why would he need humans to do his bidding? Here you have a universe within a galaxy of billions of galaxies and we are talking about an angry and disgruntled God from the Bible who sounds like a grumpy old grandad who couldn't get his children to listen. Because we all have been force fed this story as a child we have come to believe in these stories. This is tantamount to brainwashing. If I take you as a young impressionable child and repeatedly tell you to believe something or you are going to be tormenting in hell you will begin to believe in the story I told you to believe in. If I say you must not even ask questions about the whole concept you will be relegated to believing wholeheartedly in what I told you to. This is how people come to the argument already infected with this belief.

In order to see the truth you have to shake off the whole concept of Judea-Christianity and start anew. Find out where Christianity originated, look into the Sumerian's myths notable is the Enuma Elish, epics of Gilgamesh (the Creation and the Flood Story), learn about the Gnostic people (the Essene), think about the Hebrew people if they were in Egypt for some 400 odd years then they must think like the Egyptians by then so wouldn't their stories and myths have elements derived from that of the Egyptians? Didn't it say in the Bible Moses was learned in all the ways of the Egyptians? Although most say Moses wrote the Old Testament the knowledge that Moses would have taught would have been that of the Egyptian's knowledge.

Therefore people are basing their knowledge and concept on a God that was taken by a group of Hebrews out of Egypt. They then lived amongst the Canaanites in Israel and got introduced to Baal. The attributes of Baal then got added to the aspects of the Biblical God (jealous, rewarding for acts of brutality, cunning, manipulative, bloodthirsty, etc.). Like the calling of God became Lord. Baal actually means Lord. Then the Israelites were kidnapped by Babylon and introduced to Babylonian myths. It is here that they picked up certain information that came to be central stories in the Bible.

When you realize how many times these stories have been copied down and re-written then you have to realize the true knowledge of the Creator of the Universe is not to be found in that book. There is no way to make a case for it being the God of the universe because it can be shown from whince certain attributes of the Biblical God comes from. It can be shown how the nature of the God of the Bible is in correlation with the ancient tribal gods of the lands of the near east.

Knowing this why are people chasing a fictional character or at least some recreated tribal god and not the God of the universe? The God of the universe doesn't need any middlemen. You must go within to meet the God of the universe. God is not to be found in words in a book but the experience must be felt by the individual.