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Old 05-01-2007, 03:30 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Godless Happiness

I stumbled across this article about achieving happiness without religion, and I believe it also applies to spirituality as a whole.

What do you think? Is spirituality a requirement for happiness? Is non-spiritual happiness any more or less rewarding than spiritually-fueled happiness? What is it about spirituality that provides happiness? And when does spirituality lead away from happiness?

Madigan answers some of these questions in his essay, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

My view is that I've been far happier since leaving behind my Catholic beliefs. Leaving behind fear of eternal damnation was incredibly liberating. I've encountered many spiritual beliefs since then, though none of them have been adopted, but they have reinforced those aspect of my Christian upbringing which I haven't left behind; i.e., compassion, conscientiousness, generosity, etc. None of which are necessarily spiritual in nature.
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Old 05-01-2007, 04:17 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Well, how do you define being spirtual? Do you mean accepting gods will? that is all that occurs? Do you have some control over your ego based desires?

Buddhists say desire brings suffering, it also brings our natural form of contentment. I dont believe in a spirit, but if you mean spiritual in the sense i have explained above then yes... i do try to apply some spirtual ways in my life. That is i try to balance my desires with how the universe unfolds... i find this brings me optimal contentment.

It feels great and liberating to not fear a god or a set of religious beliefs defined by others.
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Old 05-01-2007, 07:50 AM   #3 (permalink)
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It's an interesting concept, but the article seems to be more focussed upon happiness outside religion. I feel that religion is something completely different and separate from spirituality. I believe happiness outside of religion is absolutely possible. Perhaps even more probable because one is living outside the confines of a potentially controlling and limiting paradigm.

But can one be truly happy without spirituality? Hmmm...

I guess I can't say. I know that I was not entirely happy without some sense of my spirit, but that was only my experience.
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Old 05-01-2007, 08:26 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Injoy Can you give me what your definition of a spirit is? And why you need this belief to be happy?
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Old 05-01-2007, 09:01 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by nosussbeliefs View Post
Injoy Can you give me what your definition of a spirit is?
As I currently experience and understand it...

My spirit is that which gives me life. It's the (heretofore) unmeasured, unexplained, often unperceived light (or force) that is present in everything. I perceive it kind of like a tether to the rest of the Universe. (My particular belief is that God is everything, and you and I are a part of that everything, and therefore a part of God.) For some reason, I also feel that my spirit includes my consciousness in some significant way. But I cannot explain that feeling, nor can I substantiate it. I just sense it.

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And why you need this belief to be happy?
As I said in my previous post, I cannot say that anyone needs this belief to be happy. In fact, all I really know is that when I did not have this belief, I was not happy. However, it is also true that there were other factors involved with my unhappiness at that time.

I do know that my spiritual beliefs are the source of a good deal of my present happiness.

It's actually an interesting conundrum. Take a blind person for instance. Like an atheist, they have no sense of something that some others (sighted, or spiritual) claim that they do. If you were to ask a sighted person if they could be happy being blind, could they give you an accurate answer without actual experience? If you were ask a blind person if they were happy being blind, could you be sure that their idea of happiness was of the same measure as the sighted person? Would someone who had experienced both states be able to give an accurate comparison of their before and after happiness? Would the order in which those experiences occurred affect the perception of happiness?
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Old 05-01-2007, 09:22 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Happiness is actually the joy of existence. You would think happiness comes from some kind of external thing, or even some kind of internal state of being for the more advanced, but all it really takes is just the awareness of existence, because that in itself is not different than joy/love/beauty and other qualities of Divinity, i.e. you feel more "alive" when you're in love, or appreciating nature, etc. When you achieve some goal, or you're with someone you love, or eating chocolate -- what you're really happy about is the joy of existence during those states/conditions. Enlightenment is to remove all conditions and concepts that block this natural joy/love/bliss of the Self that shines forth when all the "clouds" are removed. Same as what drugs do, temporarily; they block off all the lower consciousness energies and allow the natural unconditional joy of higher consciousness to shine forth.

So in a way, all happiness is spiritually-oriented, just that it isn't recognized to be so. Which is totally fine -- you don't need gurus or scripture to tell you that love and kindness to others is a good thing What's important is that we institute these spiritual practices in our lives -- it doesn't matter if it came from the Bible or a fortune cookie
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Old 05-01-2007, 11:47 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InJoy View Post
It's an interesting concept, but the article seems to be more focussed upon happiness outside religion. I feel that religion is something completely different and separate from spirituality. I believe happiness outside of religion is absolutely possible. Perhaps even more probable because one is living outside the confines of a potentially controlling and limiting paradigm.

But can one be truly happy without spirituality? Hmmm...

I guess I can't say. I know that I was not entirely happy without some sense of my spirit, but that was only my experience.
I don't make any sharp distinction between the "physical" world and the spiritual. I don't see any reason to believe in anything that is not physical--because I have never perceived anything that is not physical in nature, even my own mind. Life, the mind, and the spirit are all emergent properties of the way we are arranged, in the same way that the color of an object is an emergent property of the way its particles are arranged (Is there an unexplainable colorful spirit inside it?) For me, wiping away a little of the mystery does not remove any of the wonder or reverence that I feel for the human spirit and for the world around me. On the contrary, I am even happier and more fascinated now that I realize how spiritual matter can be: that life can be composed of non-living things or thought composed of non-thinking things.

I find myself getting more and more spiritual the more convinced I am that there is not a God.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:38 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Interesting questions.

I do not believe that spirituality is a requirement for happiness, nor do I think being spiritual or not in any way impacts the level or constancy of happiness an individual feels.

In my opinion far more important than spirituality in the pursuit of happiness is the development of self-awareness and self-acceptance. The more deeply one understands and accepts themselves the more clarity they gain in identifying just what it is that brings them happiness (and I’d argue that most people are very out of touch with where their happiness comes from) on a consistent basis.

I believe that some people confuse spirituality/religion and their teachings with the road to happiness because they do give a set of possible roadmaps to attain happiness. There are other maps though.

I think spirituality leads to unhappiness when people confuse the maps they provide with the message. I do understand and believe some people have frequent, or even occasional, feelings of bliss/happiness from their spiritual beliefs/knowledge but this is not the case for all people. For the people who don’t find their happiness primarily from spirituality but try to force themselves spirituality would definitely lead to unhappiness.
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Old 05-01-2007, 04:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
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People are happy wasting away their time in front of the TV and drinking all day. Other people are happy while doing something for others and spending time with the people they love. But are both scenarios equal?
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Old 05-01-2007, 04:51 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Reading the above posts reminded me of an old, jokey saying that only children and the handicapped are happy. They are innocent, free from worry and are probably not too concerned about self development and the pursuit of happiness (as they are already happy!). It's an interesting topic and there are many nuances and personal definitions about what happiness or joy or contentment is. A lot of it is transitory - we may feel happy after a meal or meeting someone, but it doesn't last long. A lot of people are happy when denying themselves and serving the ones they love, foregoing personal comfort in the hope of achieving something better in the afterlife - union with God, for example. So, in that sense, there can also be happiness in the pursuit of happiness!
Sometimes we don't realize we were happy at a particular time, until that time has passed and we find ourselves in some sad, lonely situation. We think back and think how happy we were without realizing it. Does that mean we need the duality of experience, the positive and negative, in order to experience happiness?
Are children aware at the time that they are happy? I think often they are. I can clearly remember my own children at very young ages jumping up and down, shrieking 'Happy, happy, happy!'.
I have seen many ordinary, simple people, especially those who live in the countryside, who are naturally happy, without having any particular belief system, religious or otherwise, or any particular need for self improvement.
In fact, it is often the ones who have a compulsion for self improvement who are the most unhappy, as they are never satisfied with what they have.
If I was asked what true happiness was, I would say it was a sense of deep, inner peace and acceptance of self and others.
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Old 05-01-2007, 05:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AidanMatthews216 View Post
I don't make any sharp distinction between the "physical" world and the spiritual. I don't see any reason to believe in anything that is not physical--because I have never perceived anything that is not physical in nature, even my own mind. Life, the mind, and the spirit are all emergent properties of the way we are arranged, in the same way that the color of an object is an emergent property of the way its particles are arranged (Is there an unexplainable colorful spirit inside it?) For me, wiping away a little of the mystery does not remove any of the wonder or reverence that I feel for the human spirit and for the world around me. On the contrary, I am even happier and more fascinated now that I realize how spiritual matter can be: that life can be composed of non-living things or thought composed of non-thinking things.

I find myself getting more and more spiritual the more convinced I am that there is not a God.
I think this a very interesting point of view. You mention spirit and spiritual things in your post several times, and then say that you do not believe in God. What is Spirit by your definition? And for that matter, what is God by your definition?

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Sometimes we don't realize we were happy at a particular time, until that time has passed and we find ourselves in some sad, lonely situation. We think back and think how happy we were without realizing it. Does that mean we need the duality of experience, the positive and negative, in order to experience happiness?
I tend to think so. If we were happy literally every second of every day of our lives, how would we know it? We'd have nothing with which to compare.
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Old 05-01-2007, 09:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InJoy View Post
I think this a very interesting point of view. You mention spirit and spiritual things in your post several times, and then say that you do not believe in God. What is Spirit by your definition? And for that matter, what is God by your definition?
I have no really solid definitions for them; I just try to use them the way most people do. Whatever else a "God" does, he/she/it is some kind of consciousness that created me. In this sense there are two "God"s: my mother and my father.

I realize there are other concepts or definitions of "God," but in general I have different words to express them.

As for spirit, most people mean a sort of conglomeration of the qualities which make us "human": our creative drive, our deepest emotions, our subconscious drives and intentions. I don't believe in a spirit as something separate from the physical or something which can endure apart from our bodies. But I believe in the spirit in the above sense, and I like to live a "spiritual" life in the sense of something more profound than sex and television. For me, physical/mechanical/"mundane" things can hold deep spiritual value. When I do a Calculus problem I often feel as if I'm worshipping.

Last edited by AidanMatthews216; 05-01-2007 at 09:51 PM. Reason: clarifying a point
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Old 05-01-2007, 09:52 PM   #13 (permalink)
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In my opinion happiness is something only YOU can create. A God, fictional or real, can't make you happy. Thats redundant.
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Old 05-02-2007, 02:06 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Excellent replies everyone

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosussbeliefs View Post
Well, how do you define being spirtual? Do you mean accepting gods will? that is all that occurs? Do you have some control over your ego based desires?
To me spirituality is a belief in a undefinable, non-physical life-source. Either God, or some form of non-physical energy. Or a belief in a something greater than what we see in nature. Or the belief in a higher power. Or considering the universe to have some form of consciousness. Beliefs of that nature. I don't know what you mean by "i try to balance my desires with how the universe unfolds" so I don't know if that fits with my understanding. Could you explain that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal View Post
...but all it really takes is just the awareness of existence, because that in itself is not different than joy/love/beauty and other qualities of Divinity, i.e. you feel more "alive" when you're in love, or appreciating nature, etc. When you achieve some goal, or you're with someone you love, or eating chocolate
Being non-spiritual, I see the things you describe as non-spiritual. They come from our humanity, not any divine source. But we're not in disagreement because the end result is a set of practices which lead to happiness for all, and as long as that is the aim, as you said, the source is irrelevant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
I do not believe that spirituality is a requirement for happiness, nor do I think being spiritual or not in any way impacts the level or constancy of happiness an individual feels.

In my opinion far more important than spirituality in the pursuit of happiness is the development of self-awareness and self-acceptance. The more deeply one understands and accepts themselves the more clarity they gain in identifying just what it is that brings them happiness (and I’d argue that most people are very out of touch with where their happiness comes from) on a consistent basis.

I believe that some people confuse spirituality/religion and their teachings with the road to happiness because they do give a set of possible roadmaps to attain happiness. There are other maps though.

I think spirituality leads to unhappiness when people confuse the maps they provide with the message. I do understand and believe some people have frequent, or even occasional, feelings of bliss/happiness from their spiritual beliefs/knowledge but this is not the case for all people. For the people who don’t find their happiness primarily from spirituality but try to force themselves spirituality would definitely lead to unhappiness.
I'm with you there, couldn't have said it better myself.

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Originally Posted by InJoy View Post
If we were happy literally every second of every day of our lives, how would we know it? We'd have nothing with which to compare.
Something about that doesn't sit well with me. Probably that it seems to lessen the worth of consistent happiness. Not that I disagree with you, I just want it to not be true

Would it be enough to have experienced states other than happiness before, and recall the contrast? Probably not, there's plenty of evidence of our ability to make any emotional state our "base" state.

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Originally Posted by InJoy View Post
I feel that religion is something completely different and separate from spirituality.
How can you have religion without spirituality?

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Originally Posted by Lychee View Post
People are happy wasting away their time in front of the TV and drinking all day. Other people are happy while doing something for others and spending time with the people they love. But are both scenarios equal?
Equal in the degree of happiness felt? Probably not, but we can't know that. Though I suspect you were referring to a greater contribution to the happiness of others in the latter case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantando View Post
If I was asked what true happiness was, I would say it was a sense of deep, inner peace and acceptance of self and others.
How, if at all, do you think this relates to spirituality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AidanMatthews216 View Post
As for spirit, most people mean a sort of conglomeration of the qualities which make us "human": our creative drive, our deepest emotions, our subconscious drives and intentions. I don't believe in a spirit as something separate from the physical or something which can endure apart from our bodies. But I believe in the spirit in the above sense, and I like to live a "spiritual" life in the sense of something more profound than sex and television. For me, physical/mechanical/"mundane" things can hold deep spiritual value. When I do a Calculus problem I often feel as if I'm worshipping.
It seems as if what you refer to as spiritual is closer to my understanding of "spirited", i.e., full of energy; animated. And something more, a desire to live, and a joy in life. Or happiness, as ethereal put it. But perhaps I'm just confusing the matter

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Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian View Post
In my opinion happiness is something only YOU can create. A God, fictional or real, can't make you happy. Thats redundant.
Do you think that your beliefs about reality can affect your happiness? And thus your beliefs about God?
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Old 05-02-2007, 03:28 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre View Post
It seems as if what you refer to as spiritual is closer to my understanding of "spirited", i.e., full of energy; animated. And something more, a desire to live, and a joy in life. Or happiness, as ethereal put it. But perhaps I'm just confusing the matter
Well, yes, I do kind of think of "spirit" as being something vital, some kind of force animating life. Since people tend to associate spirits with living things, that only makes sense to me. Also consciousness and the mind--people don't tend to ascribe spirits to things that are not aware.
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Old 05-02-2007, 07:39 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
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How can you have religion without spirituality?
I think it happens all the time. Often there are other things, completely outside the spiritual realm, such as money or other agenda, that drive some religions or religious groups. Haven't you ever met someone who used religion as a weapon? Take the groups who claim that God hates certain groups of people, and commit violent or heartless acts in God's name, for instance. They are religious, but I don't think they are in touch with their Spirit.

By my understanding and definition, religion is that which is made by man. Spirituality is that which is made by God.

That does not mean that I don't think spirituality can exist within religion. I do believe it can and does in some situations. I just observe that either can exist without the other.

Does that clarify?
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Old 05-02-2007, 01:05 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantando
If I was asked what true happiness was, I would say it was a sense of deep, inner peace and acceptance of self and others.

Mark LaPierre:
How, if at all, do you think this relates to spirituality?


Being at peace with oneself and others is a major part of spirituality. Unless we achieve this, how can we experience the inner joy of being in the present, eternal moment? Whether we achieve this through religion or some belief system, or just happen to have it naturally, depends on the individual and the state of his soul.
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Old 05-02-2007, 05:17 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default How can you have spirituality without religion?

In my understanding religions grow, are maintained and propagated in order to explain and contextualize personal spiritual revelations/experiences within a broader community/society. Religions are primarily communal in nature allowing societies to maintain social order in the face of often widely variable revelations about the divine, they create comfortable borders around these revelations and pull outliers (individuals with deep spiritual revelations) back in to the communal whole solidifying social norms. I would differentiate between religions and spiritual disciplines although I’m not sure others would…

I also agree with InJoy as to additional motivations that can fuel religions:

Quote:
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I think it happens all the time. Often there are other things, completely outside the spiritual realm, such as money or other agenda, that drive some religions or religious groups.
Spirituality is very personal in nature, often not translating well to others. I’m not so sure what definition is being used for spirituality, are you including feeling the presence of god/the divine/whatever name you use or are you defining spirituality as the practice of spiritual disciplines (yoga, meditation, prayer) which can exist either inside or outside of formal religions?

Last edited by Jenny; 05-02-2007 at 05:34 PM. Reason: added InJoy's name, forgot
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Old 05-03-2007, 02:01 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InJoy View Post
I think it happens all the time. Often there are other things, completely outside the spiritual realm, such as money or other agenda, that drive some religions or religious groups. Haven't you ever met someone who used religion as a weapon? Take the groups who claim that God hates certain groups of people, and commit violent or heartless acts in God's name, for instance. They are religious, but I don't think they are in touch with their Spirit.

By my understanding and definition, religion is that which is made by man. Spirituality is that which is made by God.
There are an unfortunate number of those groups scattered throughout our history, yet I'm sure that if we look into their history, we'll find motives and messages ascribed to God, or another spiritual being. Humans then misinterpret those motives and messages, leading to the violence. It's still spirituality, but spirituality which has been warped and turned into something harmful.

I'm sure many would argue that's not true spirituality, but they still believe they're doing God's work, so I can't dismiss the negative sides of spiritual beliefs so easily.

I agree with Jenny's description of the nature of religion. Perhaps the distinction between religion and spirituality would be made clearer by considering religion an organisation of spiritual beliefs. It is possible to have spiritual beliefs, and undertake spiritual practices outside of religion, but I'm not convinced it is possible to truly be religious without some aspect of spirituality (however misguided or misinterpreted that spirituality may have become).

Conversely I believe it's possible to undertake spiritual practices outside of both spirituality and religion. Yoga or meditation for example. As I mention in my blog, they were initially spiritual practices, but spirituality isn't a necessary part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantando View Post
Being at peace with oneself and others is a major part of spirituality. Unless we achieve this, how can we experience the inner joy of being in the present, eternal moment? Whether we achieve this through religion or some belief system, or just happen to have it naturally, depends on the individual and the state of his soul.
Nice. In other words the journey, and the state of being in which it is undertaken, is more important than the belief system we use to explain or justify it
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Old 04-30-2008, 08:44 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Happiness is our true nature

Our nature is happiness. Regardless of our religion, it is entirely possible to be happy, because it is our nature.
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Old 04-30-2008, 10:51 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Huh? Obviously being rich, famous and having a perfect jawline/big boobs (take your pick) is the root of happiness.

1) what is happiness?
2) what is spirituality?
3) does one kiss make me gay?
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:52 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Huh? Obviously being rich, famous and having a perfect jawline/big boobs (take your pick) is the root of happiness.

1) what is happiness?
2) what is spirituality?
3) does one kiss make me gay?
Happiness is the deep Knowing that one kiss DOES NOT make you Gay.

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Old 05-01-2008, 04:34 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre View Post
I stumbled across this article about achieving happiness without religion, and I believe it also applies to spirituality as a whole.

What do you think? Is spirituality a requirement for happiness?
I think them as the same thing. The happiness that works is when spirit is operating through you - you found your grove.
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Is non-spiritual happiness any more or less rewarding than spiritually-fueled happiness?
non-spiritual happiness, to me, would be getting a charge form something that is conditional, which could be like an addiction and has fear of loosing the condition since it could change and is not a happiness that works. it may work with side effects when the condition changes.
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What is it about spirituality that provides happiness?
the ability to be present and accepting of what is, that leaves no need to want and desire to the point of suffering over what is.
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And when does spirituality lead away from happiness?
if it does, it is not spiritual.

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My view is that I've been far happier since leaving behind my Catholic beliefs. Leaving behind fear of eternal damnation was incredibly liberating. I've encountered many spiritual beliefs since then, though none of them have been adopted, but they have reinforced those aspect of my Christian upbringing which I haven't left behind; i.e., compassion, conscientiousness, generosity, etc. None of which are necessarily spiritual in nature.
spiritual is, to me, just being moved by a desire in the moment that you don't cling to. being enthusiastic and appreciative out of being present, not out of trying to be enthusiastic and appreciative.

I liked this part of the article:
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Originally Posted by from the web link in the OP
It is here that the work of University of Chicago psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi proves helpful. For several decades now, he has scientifically studied individuals who claim to be living rewarding existences - modern-day exponents of Aristotelian self-fulfillment. He refers to such an experience as "flow," since most people studied describe it in terms of being so involved in an activity that they lose track of everything else, even time. Yet, unlike Aristotle's conception of eudaimonia, flow is something that is experienced by men and women from all walks of life.
I would say that "flow" is when you are being one with your spirit. and you kind of forget "yourself" (that ever pervasive ego self that doesn't pay attention to the present too well at all)
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Old 05-01-2008, 08:17 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I would say that "flow" is when you are being one with your spirit. and you kind of forget "yourself" (that ever pervasive ego self that doesn't pay attention to the present too well at all)
Taking unrelated ideas and forcing them into the same box is a bad practice.
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Old 05-01-2008, 08:36 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wolfgang
would say that "flow" is when you are being one with your spirit. and you kind of forget "yourself" (that ever pervasive ego self that doesn't pay attention to the present too well at all)
Taking unrelated ideas and forcing them into the same box is a bad practice.
I beg your pardon?

Do make a clear point please.

Are you saying flow and spirit are not related, in your way of thinking?
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Old 05-02-2008, 02:03 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Let me restate what you said in a different way:

I would say that when you are being "one with your spirit", you're in flow.
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Old 05-02-2008, 12:06 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Hi everyone,

I've often heard people describe themselves as " not religious, but spiritual" as if to say they don't believe in any religion or don't belong to one. Implying they have spiritual beliefs, ( such as in the afterlife, chakras, meditation etc.) but that they are completely separate from religion-no religious idealogies, creeds or rules....

Like Mark's feelings, there is a sense of being more free, free to ask more questions where in some religions, one was discouraged from asking certain questions; free to explore new concepts (chakras, afterlife etc.) without being condemned or critisized;

Or just being free from rigid rules that may make one feel guilty, limited or confused all the time...

I remember one woman caller on a radio show that said she really tried religion, but there was just no feedback from 'upstairs' .... she felt nothing, alone ..so she began to explore buddhism and that made her feel more satisfied because she could get something back...something tangible...

With just plain old scientific materialism, I think there is also a limitation, because science is definetly not at a level yet where it can provide an answer to things that would really make us "happy": life after death, issues about injustice and punishment, why are we here, how did we get here etc.

Science can help though, it has done alot to improve our quality of life we're living now and made things so much easier us... take away the internet, refridgerator, cars, not alot of happy people

But when it comes to what we're talking about now, it's not at that level yet...
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Old 05-02-2008, 12:58 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I'm afraid you've lost me too Michael. From what I gathered from wolfgang's post, he identifies spirituality with the concept of present moment awareness. That's a key component of Csikszentmihalyi's concept of flow, albeit not sufficient to fully explain the concept.

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I remember one woman caller on a radio show that said she really tried religion, but there was just no feedback from 'upstairs' .... she felt nothing, alone ..so she began to explore buddhism and that made her feel more satisfied because she could get something back...something tangible...
I think that's an important point (which is hopefully obvious); that the feeling of satisfaction can come from many sources and what works for one person may not work for someone else, and vice-versa.

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With just plain old scientific materialism, I think there is also a limitation, because science is definetly not at a level yet where it can provide an answer to things that would really make us "happy": life after death, issues about injustice and punishment, why are we here, how did we get here etc.
I think the many happy scientists would let out a belly laugh or two at the suggestion that science is limited in revealing things that can make us happy. And it's no mark against science if it hasn't provided definitive answers that no other approach has either.

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But when it comes to what we're talking about now, it's not at that level yet...
Strange you should say that, since the contribution of science through Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's work takes up a large part of the article which we're talking about...

Daniel Gilbert's "Stumbling on Happiness" also sheds light on the topic; science-based again. Mind you his book is not a guide to happiness; it's about why so many attempts to find happiness go astray.
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Old 05-02-2008, 05:42 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I'm afraid you've lost me too Michael. From what I gathered from wolfgang's post, he identifies spirituality with the concept of present moment awareness.
I apologize. I didn't read his post properly, and I missed that definition the first time around. (And the second time around. Or the third time around. I had to re-read it three times during this reply.)

I still disagree with how he expressed his ideas, which I illustrated in my second post, but I withdraw my objection to the actual claim he made, which I have no response to.
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Old 05-02-2008, 06:26 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Like most others that have responded to this post, I too see a distinct difference between Religion and Spirituality and echo those that seem to say that the one is merely the Path to the other. Religion is a personally followed formula - whether designed by someone else or self-directed - that leads to an intentful feeling of completeness or connection to Source. That being said, while the two are distinct, you cannot have Spirituality without Religion. You can follow a Religion's practices and never feel spiritually connected (just ask ANYONE who was brought into one religion and then moved to another), but you cannot be INTENTFULLY spiritually connected without SOME formula of action.

I do not believe that you can be happy without some form of spirituality as my definition of happy involves feeling whole and connected.

I believe one must have balance in the four main areas of their existance - Mind, Spirit, Heart and Body - to enter into a state wherein they gain connectedness and therefore "feel" happy.

Without some "method" - again, either developed by someone else (ie. an "established" religion or tutelege by a "master") or self-directed through self-questioning and discovery - one does not experience that connectedness except through random occurrances thus making it nonintentional. Therefore, no "religion" = no "spirituality". Without the spiritual aspect of that equation, there can never be balance, ergo, no happiness.
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