Spiritual 1984

[Oceans]

Are you in Spiritual 1984?

“Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.” –George Orwell

For those that aren't aware of it, you’re most likely in it. There are some people in this forum that are telling the others to wake up from their delusion – from the mass ‘Spiritual 1984’. People think that they are awake but they’re not, the beliefs they have are piggy backed by the belief of others (authors, guru, bliss states etc). What are truly your own beliefs? And more importantly prove they are true!

“The most sincere seekers are … not seeking truth or answers; they’re seeking relief from Spiritual Dissonance. Providing this relief is the lifeblood of the religious and spiritual marketplace. It has nothing to do with truth or awakening. In fact, just the opposite. In the final analysis, stripped of all its holy pretensions, the entire spiritual marketplace is really nothing more than an existential quick-lube shop, and while there may be an endless variety in packaging, there is really only one product. Spiritual Consonance is what all seekers seek; an end to discomfort…. But the consonance they seek can only be found in deeper unconsciousness…. To the best of my knowledge, spiritually-inclined people, from all walks and disciplines, at all stages, are really doing nothing more than maintaining or deepening their entrenchment, and maybe piddling around with mildly altered states.” – Jed McKenna

Where does this leave us? Well pure honesty on what is true. What can be tested and verified.

ALL beliefs are false. Test it. If you find it hard to test your most cherished spiritual beliefs I guess you are not ready for it.

Although I’ve been in and out of ‘Spiritual 1984’ for the past year, adding some, taking away some and then back again...now I can see what I was doing. Relief from cognitive dissonance. This is why I have grown to see how deluded some people are and why I couldn’t fully adopt their perspective. I feel they think they are better than others because of their delusion and their 'path' they have been on. Powers and bliss states are just distractions- can this be tested- of course look around the two sub-forum below this one and see how many are truely awake.

The biggest challenge has always been ourselves What beliefs have been given too you? Stirp everything away and what's left?

I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Only a few on here can see what I'm saying I feel, the others that will defend their beilefs are those so deluded that they can't see through their own BS

Thoughts and additions welcomed

[Oceans]

I should clarify that I don't think there is anything wrong with being in 'Spiritual 1984'. If it makes you happy- rock on.

All I wanted was for some to become aware of this if they really wanted to wake up

[Wombels]

Originally Posted by Oceans

What are truly your own beliefs? And more importantly prove they are true!

"What are truly your own beliefs?"

We are but expressions and manifestations of thought having a ride in a physical body, the reason why we have deliberately chosen to take place in this amazing vehicle called “Body” is to enjoy the illusion attached to it, that experience called life.

The best thing in life is to engage in sexual activities amongst one another, making it the main reason why we chose to occupy a body in the first place. A more appropriate name for Mother Earth would be Planet Sex.

"And more importantly prove they are true!"

Sex is the number one purchased desire upon this globe, those who don't share this idea suffer from severe forms of indoctrination, frustration, limitation, guild, low self esteem while more serious, a profound lack of identity.

A lack which comes along with a twisted notion of what true love and sexuality is all about.

Sex rules on Planet Sex...

[Oceans]

Originally Posted by Wombels

"What are truly your own beliefs?"

We are but expressions and manifestations of thought having a ride in a physical body, the reason why we have deliberately chosen to take place in this amazing vehicle called “Body” is to enjoy the illusion attached to it, that experience called life.

The best thing in life is to engage in sexual activities amongst one another, making it the main reason why we chose to occupy a body in the first place. A more appropriate name for Mother Earth would be Planet Sex.

"And more importantly prove they are true!"

Sex is the number one purchased desire upon this globe, those who don't share this idea suffer from severe forms of indoctrination, frustration, limitation, guild, low self esteem while more serious, a profound lack of identity.

A lack which comes along with a twisted notion of what true love and sexuality is all about.

Sex rules on Planet Sex...

Strip it down further into it's basic truth

Edit: ...but not in this thread please as thats not what this is about. This thread is attempt to discuss the delusion from a new perspective and have a fun at it

The sex and spiritually industries have sold the same thing with different packaging- distractions.

Those questions in OP were slightly rhetorical in nature as there are infinite beliefs- I can't deal with all of them

[Wombels]

Originally Posted by Oceans

Strip it down further into it's basic truth

Edit: ...but not in this thread please as thats not what this is about. This thread is attempt to discuss the delusion from a new perspective and have a fun at it

I see, basic truth

[Oceans]

I guess the question to ask ourselves is "What do we want?"

If we want peace of mind stay in the Spiritual 1984.

If you want to become fully conscious and awake in the dream state, maybe we have to do something a bit more painful and drop it all.

I've already done this on some level, I've challenged myself and all my teachers (authors) for a while. HOWEVER, my ego loves getting me attached to the illusion further in some form another. I'm only human but I can feel something a miss.

One running theme from the authors that I trust is that we have to figure it alone. No external source has the right answer and we need drop all their beliefs and own to get somewhere more awake.

Agree, disagree, don't care??

[VinceG]

Einstein has a very relevant quote here, "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.”

What you are seeing in others here is a projection of your own blocks. You are not aware of how this sort of logic is transcended because you can't see your own block. And so anything I or anyone else might say is just going to be turned back on itself.

"I'm not projecting, you're projecting!" It's the "I'm rubber, you're glue" school of conscious growth.

[Oceans]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Einstein has a very relevant quote here, "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.”

What you are seeing in others here is a projection of your own blocks. You are not aware of how this sort of logic is transcended because you can't see your own block. And so anything I or anyone else might say is just going to be turned back on itself.

"I'm not projecting, you're projecting!" It's the "I'm rubber, you're glue" school of conscious growth.

I've already thought of this. But that response reminds of the first quote about Crimestop. You straight away can't see the possible logic of this current argument. Why not test it?

Einstein also said "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" What if the spiritual camp is the persistent part he was on about. We drop a bunch of set beliefs about the sleeping world thinking we are awake, but really we're still in the illusion running with a different crowd thinking that they are awake because they say the other is asleep.

What would happen if you scrapped all the beliefs you picked up? Then what??

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Oceans

I've already thought of this.

Of course you've already thought of this. But meta isn't the way out here.

But that response reminds of the first quote about Crimestop. You straight away can't see the possible logic of this current argument. Why not test it?

Logic and tests aren't the way out either.

What would happen if you scrapped all the beliefs you picked up? Then what??

Very difficult to do. But if you could do it, it would provide you with a fresh new platform to experience things from.

[inri]

Originally Posted by Oceans

I've already thought of this. But that response reminds of the first quote about Crimestop. You straight away can't see the possible logic of this current argument. Why not test it?

Einstein also said "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" What if the spiritual camp is the persistent part he was on about. We drop a bunch of set beliefs about the sleeping world thinking we are awake, but really we're still in the illusion running with a different crowd thinking that they are awake because they say the other is asleep.

What would happen if you scrapped all the beliefs you picked up? Then what??

Yes, something interesting happens when we're willing to acknowledge that even our deepest of realizations about what lies beyond this physical experience just might be another layer of the 'dream.'

When we can acknowledge and be completely okay with the idea that every theory, belief, knowing or seeing we've come to, regarding that which lies beyond this physical experience, may very well be a load of tripe, we truly are free.

The ultimate and most difficult attachment of all to shed, really does seem to be our attachment to the idea of truth itself...freedom comes when we drop our NEED to know with certainty what lies beyond.

It's incredibly freeing To be able to say "I don't know" and be perfectly okay with doing so.

[Oceans]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Very difficult to do. But if you could do it, it would provide you with a fresh new platform to experience things from.

Exactly...and no one does it because it's 'hard', it's not all fuzzy clouds like 'real spirituality'. Everyone wants the easy, peace of mind route, go off explore astral worlds and bliss states and whatnot. What they are continuing doing is moving away from inward focus and answers. What is really true? All of it seems to be outward focus and to resolve cognitive dissonance within ourselves

As you said, truth-realisation involves a new platform to experience things - one without all the BS we've picked up from the illusion. Strip everything.

What would you think someone enlightened would say- coming from a perspective of no-belief, no-self etc etc (this is an assumption). All I’m trying to focus on is what is true and real and how best to go about it.

That being said, I know I could be wrong…I don’t care about being wrong but many here seem to be. What's the big deal with being wrong, Edison sure didn't and look where it got him- a light bulb moment

You seem to have strong beliefs about yourself/path/enlightenment. Why not strip it all away? What are you scared of….what do you fear in doing this (answer honestly). I didn't mean this to be about you...just wondering

[Oceans]

Originally Posted by inri

Yes, something interesting happens when we're willing to acknowledge that even our deepest of realizations about what lies beyond this physical experience just might be another layer of the 'dream.'

When we can acknowledge and be completely okay with the idea that every theory, belief, knowing or seeing we've come to, regarding that which lies beyond this physical experience, may very well be a load of tripe, we truly are free.

The ultimate and most difficult attachment of all to shed, really does seem to be our attachment to the idea of truth itself...freedom comes when we drop our NEED to know with certainty what lies beyond.

It's incredibly freeing To be able to say "I don't know" and be perfectly okay with doing so.

Yup...."I don't know" is very powerful

What do you know for fact though?

I get two things:

1) "I Am"
2) Death

[javamannen2]

Originally Posted by Oceans

What do you know for fact though?

1. I feel good now.
2. I feel good now too.
3. And now.
4. ...

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Oceans

What are you scared of….what do you fear in doing this (answer honestly). I didn't mean this to be about you...just wondering

Why do you assume it's fear? I've already told you I've done this, numerous times, in the past. I'll tell you what happens when you do it.

At first it's peace, joy. No need to know, no need to find out. You can walk through a park and experience the splendor of it. I remember walking over the same bridge over the same river many times and being amazed by it every time.

Then what happens is people start talking to you. Socializing really makes holding the state hard. People have expectations of you, they expect you to know things like they do. You can't try to tell them you don't know anything, because that would be knowing that you don't know anything. So you hack away at socializing the best you can.

The longer you hold onto it, the more separated you become from the world of men. That first, joyful state is no longer present. Now it looks like work. Eventually you realize that there's no hiding from your own mind. You can't not know anything. You can bring about the state, the perception, of not knowing anything, but the longer you hold on, the more you're just pushing in the opposite direction.

Eventually you realize that knowing/not knowing is not important. It's a duality that traps people. So you just stop buying into it. You find a third way that's not so rigid. At first you take stances: today on this topic I know all about it, on this other topic I know nothing.

You go on like this for, oh I dunno, years, then you start catching glimpses of a meta-state beyond the 'stances'. You can know and not know at the same time. That meta state is true spirituality, whereas all the others are just ego.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Oceans

What do you know for fact though?

I get two things:

1) "I Am"
2) Death

Is "death" a fact? That it is an experience that all mortal incarnations are going to eventually experience, well, can't argue with that. But from the material side of things, death looks like "something". Some kind of event, or happening, or... well, something. But is it? Perhaps from the other side, death isn't at all what we think it is. Perhaps, because time is an illusion, death doesn't exist the way we think it does... ?

When I really drilled down and down and down and down, I found that the only thing I could confirm with any kind of anything you might call certainty was and is "I am", and even then, I don't know WHAT "I am", and in fact, I have seen that "I" isn't quite real, so that just leaves "am" and as that makes no sense.... I'm left with.... Nothing.

But, bottom line here, I don't know. I don't know any of this stuff for fact. I could be a brain in a jar on the shelf of a mad scientist's laboratory, dreaming all this with the aid of psychotropic drugs in the liquid in which I'm suspended and some craftily applied electrodes... (I'm not saying I "believe" that, but it's a thought that amuses me.)

[Oceans]

Originally Posted by VinceG

That meta state is true spirituality, whereas all the others are just ego.

Are you 100% that this will be the final step, this 'meta state'- whatever that means!? More spiritual mumbo jumbo is it not? Is your ego attached to this state now and tells you its truth?

That whole dialogue sounded like the 'spiritual 1984' I was talking about (sorry). Lost in ones story and identity. Getting attached it and becoming it, instead stripping each new layer that popped up you became them. So much so that you think this happens with everyone (“Then what happens is people start talking to you”)

The Jed McKenna dude uses the Matrix as an example. Neo wakes up into the 'real' world of Zion and the underground cave, everyone tells him he's their warrior and saviour so he buys into too. Then in the third film he see that there is something else, that even Zion is another level of being asleep. Everyone told him that Zion was 'it', but if alone he would keep going.

Dream within a dream. What if we've all fallen for this?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Oceans

What if we've all fallen for this?

If we have, would there be any way to know it?

[Oceans]

Originally Posted by CaterpillarWoman

Is "death" a fact? That it is an experience that all mortal incarnations are going to eventually experience, well, can't argue with that. But from the material side of things, death looks like "something". Some kind of event, or happening, or... well, something. But is it? Perhaps from the other side, death isn't at all what we think it is. Perhaps, because time is an illusion, death doesn't exist the way we think it does... ?

When I really drilled down and down and down and down, I found that the only thing I could confirm with any kind of anything you might call certainty was and is "I am", and even then, I don't know WHAT "I am", and in fact, I have seen that "I" isn't quite real, so that just leaves "am" and as that makes no sense.... I'm left with.... Nothing.

But, bottom line here, I don't know. I don't know any of this stuff for fact. I could be a brain in a jar on the shelf of a mad scientist's laboratory, dreaming all this with the aid of psychotropic drugs in the liquid in which I'm suspended and some craftily applied electrodes... (I'm not saying I "believe" that, but it's a thought that amuses me.)

Yeah death is a strange one. We avoid it like the plague and make up stories so that we continue after it- just to feel comfortable with it. I can observe death, that is why I know it will happen to me. Every beginning has a end. Death of my body, and soon the death of writing this post

[Oceans]

Originally Posted by VinceG

If we have, would there be any way to know it?

Maybe, strip everything and see what's left. It could be painful though if our identity has been wrapped up in clouds from all the beliefs we’ve adopted.

I started this a while back but got side tracked by a person I met who was a psychic. I (my ego) loved meeting him however after a while I saw how little he knew, and that he was in his own illusion of ego-ness expression.

So, whats the worst that can happen to us if we strip everything away- death of self. Death is the worst thing that can happen to anyone in Life.

Because we strip everthing away, our ego will have nothing new to hold too. Maybe this is what dies? Maybe this is why we hold onto everything down the rabbit hole instead of keep on digging

Who knows...we have to test it.

[sonde]

Originally Posted by CaterpillarWoman

When I really drilled down and down and down and down, I found that the only thing I could confirm with any kind of anything you might call certainty was and is "I am", and even then, I don't know WHAT "I am", and in fact, I have seen that "I" isn't quite real, so that just leaves "am" and as that makes no sense.... I'm left with.... Nothing.

But, bottom line here, I don't know. I don't know any of this stuff for fact. I could be a brain in a jar on the shelf of a mad scientist's laboratory, dreaming all this with the aid of psychotropic drugs in the liquid in which I'm suspended and some craftily applied electrodes... (I'm not saying I "believe" that, but it's a thought that amuses me.)

Yes, all I 'know' is that I am conscious only. I can only observe - and then maybe identify as a thought construct about what I am and then observe what I experience.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Oceans

Maybe, strip everything and see what's left. It could be painful though if our identity has been wrapped up in clouds from all the beliefs we’ve adopted.

I started this a while back but got side tracked by a person I met who was a psychic. I (my ego) loved meeting him however after a while I saw how little he knew, and that he was in his own illusion of ego-ness expression.

So, whats the worst that can happen to us if we strip everything away- death of self. Death is the worst thing that can happen to anyone in Life.

Because we strip everthing away, our ego will have nothing new to hold too. Maybe this is what dies? Maybe this is why we hold onto everything down the rabbit hole instead of keep on digging

Who knows...we have to test it.

Sounds to me like this is a path that you need, not me! Get to work! And let us know what you find on the other side!

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Oceans

Although I’ve been in and out of ‘Spiritual 1984’ for the past year, adding some, taking away some and then back again...now I can see what I was doing. Relief from cognitive dissonance. This is why I have grown to see how deluded some people are and why I couldn’t fully adopt their perspective. I feel they think they are better than others because of their delusion and their 'path' they have been on. Powers and bliss states are just distractions- can this be tested- of course look around the two sub-forum below this one and see how many are truely awake.

The biggest challenge has always been ourselves What beliefs have been given too you? Stirp everything away and what's left?

Are you saying that in order to not be deluded we should be like you and be able to point out to others that they are deluded because they are pointing out to others that they are deluded?

I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Only a few on here can see what I'm saying I feel, the others that will defend their beilefs are those so deluded that they can't see through their own BS

Thoughts and additions welcomed

Are you bracing yourself or expecting to defend your credo by waiting for others to defend their beliefs in their deluded opposition? Is there a way out of these kinds of self referencing projected situations?

[Oceans]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Are you saying that in order to not be deluded we should be like you and be able to point out to others that they are deluded because they are pointing out to others that they are deluded?

Are you bracing yourself or expecting to defend your credo by waiting for others to defend their beliefs in their deluded opposition? Is there a way out of these kinds of self referencing projected situations?

I have no idea what I'm trying to do I guess it's just to test our cherished beliefs- if they hold up, awesome. If not, maybe a rethink is in order.

In general, finding out what is true. Can we ever get to an objective Truth? Who knows, not my speciality, none of it is….. I just go with the flow

[Oceans]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Sounds to me like this is a path that you need, not me! Get to work! And let us know what you find on the other side!

I already have done this for while in the background. As you have. The recent belief I’ve deleted is that I’m on a ‘path’ of some sort- that is complete BS. The other one is that i'm 'spiritual person'. I'm sure there are many more which will pop up as life goes by...i'll deal with them in due time.

I know what I want though, and it’s not enlightenment, it will give me nothing as you become nothing. I like the amusement park of life and my character in it. I still like my stories but need to remind myself that they are just my stories. If, when i'm 90 and got ***** do to...i'll give enlightenment a whill, if I'm not already dead that is

[VinceG]

Well, cool! All I have to add to that is to remember the lesson in your sig! Try not to take your lack of path too seriously!

[Oceans]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Well, cool! All I have to add to that is to remember the lesson in your sig! Try not to take your lack of path too seriously!

True that! ...now I just need to learn not to take anyone else’s path too seriously!

I do feel sorry for the new-age camp who are stuck in Spiritual 1984 tho...some are very stuck, going off to mountians are learning from masters and all that jazz - i'm just glad I can see right through it these days

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by inri

Yes, something interesting happens when we're willing to acknowledge that even our deepest of realizations about what lies beyond this physical experience just might be another layer of the 'dream.'

When we can acknowledge and be completely okay with the idea that every theory, belief, knowing or seeing we've come to, regarding that which lies beyond this physical experience, may very well be a load of tripe, we truly are free.

The ultimate and most difficult attachment of all to shed, really does seem to be our attachment to the idea of truth itself...freedom comes when we drop our NEED to know with certainty what lies beyond.

It's incredibly freeing To be able to say "I don't know" and be perfectly okay with doing so.

I would say we can't know anything about what lies beyond the physical experience cause it hasn't happened yet and may not happen. This just seems to be the nature of experiencing, and yes, it's all dream stuff. Unless you're talking about truth, in which case I agree there is no such animal. Just an idea that refers to other ideas.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Oceans

Yup...."I don't know" is very powerful

What do you know for fact though?

I get two things:

1) "I Am"
2) Death

If you had said impermanence instead of death, I would have agreed, but death raises the question of what dies and in fact what was born. In many ways, death is the biggest illusion of all.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Oceans

Are you 100% that this will be the final step, this 'meta state'- whatever that means!? More spiritual mumbo jumbo is it not? Is your ego attached to this state now and tells you its truth?

That whole dialogue sounded like the 'spiritual 1984' I was talking about (sorry). Lost in ones story and identity. Getting attached it and becoming it, instead stripping each new layer that popped up you became them. So much so that you think this happens with everyone (“Then what happens is people start talking to you”)

The Jed McKenna dude uses the Matrix as an example. Neo wakes up into the 'real' world of Zion and the underground cave, everyone tells him he's their warrior and saviour so he buys into too. Then in the third film he see that there is something else, that even Zion is another level of being asleep. Everyone told him that Zion was 'it', but if alone he would keep going.

Dream within a dream. What if we've all fallen for this?

"All you see and seem
Is but a dream within a dream"
EA Poe

[alexplatups]

Originally Posted by Oceans

Yup...."I don't know" is very powerful

What do you know for fact though?

I get two things:

1) "I Am"
2) Death

These are ideas/concepts also.

You don't know that you ARE, you believe and assume so.

Same with death. You believe and assume that you will die.

Same with birth. You believe and assume that you were born.

Same with everything.

About the only thing we can be sure of is that we don't know...anything.

We even don't know that we don't know

The state of not-knowing is the first step toward being conscious of what IS.

Which is something unknown