Do you believe in Subjective or Objective Creation (of reality)?

[arpee]

Do you believe in Subjective Creation which is believing that you create your own reality (Law of Attraction) as taught by Abraham Hicks, Bashar, The Secret (Movie), etc...

Or do you believe in Objective Creation which is believing that things are what they are and you should just go with your flow so that you can be connected to Spirit/Self through it all.

Which do you believe?

[alphamind]

I believe each one lives in his own personal universe (subjective reality) in a human collective dream that is objective. So, the answer is both.

[arpee]

Originally Posted by alphamind

I believe each one lives in his own personal universe (subjective reality) in a human collective dream that is objective. So, the answer is both.

The answer could only be one or the other. You say that each lives in their own personal universe which is subjective but they are within a collective dream which is objective... That means that your answer is objective.


Think about it like this:

If I have a house in America, it doesn't matter if the theme of the house is traditional Asian. It is not an Asian house, it's in America.

[Rezzy7]

Originally Posted by arpee

The answer could only be one or the other. You say that each lives in their own personal universe which is subjective but they are within a collective dream which is objective... That means that your answer is objective.

Well, my interpretation is, no. It means that SR allows for the perspective and concepts of OR to exist within its domain. Everything exists within the one, subjective perspective, including the idea and belief that there is an objective world "out there". But even the "out there" is still contained within the single awareness, and doesn't actually exist apart from it, it just seems in certain ways like it does.

Physical, human life does appear to take place in an objective world, because that is how the "illusion" is set up.

Still, there is the aspect of how each "individual" has a type of "entanglement" with "other individuals", which works in ways I am unable to understand or explain with my physical human mind.

[arpee]

Rezzy7, you are talking about SR (Subjective Reality) and OR (Objective Reality). I am not talking about this. I'm talking about CREATION of reality.

It's either you believe that you can create whatever you want in your reality (subjective CREATION of reality)- law of attraction), or you believe that you can't create whatever you want in your reality but it's better to flow with reality (objective CREATION of reality)

It sucks that people already voted even though it seems like most don't understand what I'm asking.

[Rezzy7]

Oh, a thousand apologies, I thought they were the same thing. Oopsie.

From a Subjective Reality perspective, creation is subjectively, uh...created. So my vote would be the same, anyway.

To expand and relate more to your thread, I would say that subjective creation does not necessarily require one to "actively" create. You could just choose to go with the flow, in a state of contentment, and whatever is important or necessary for your well-being may simply come into your awareness, presence, or manifest, naturally without deliberate thought or action.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by arpee

Do you believe in Subjective Creation which is believing that you create your own reality (Law of Attraction) as taught by Abraham Hicks, Bashar, The Secret (Movie), etc...

Or do you believe in Objective Creation which is believing that things are what they are and you should just go with your flow so that you can be connected to Spirit/Self through it all.

Which do you believe?

As long as it is a believe, you are not sure. So, doesn't matter which one is 'true'.

And the way you described SR and OR is a little funny. Both seem to imply you can create your own reality.

[arpee]

Originally Posted by Reefs

As long as it is a believe, you are not sure. So, doesn't matter which one is 'true'.

And the way you described SR and OR is a little funny. Both seem to imply you can create your own reality.

I never described SR or OR, I'm talking about how life experience is created! Are you creating your life experience subjectively:

example: I thought of a hamburger, I want a hamburger so I got one and ate it.

or is it more of an Objective Creation:

Example: If I want a hamburger at 12AM and all of the stores are closed, I can't do anything about it and have to just accept that I can't make that experience of me eating the hamburger BE right now.

You see, it seems like both is going on, as Razzy said, but I'm talking about how do you mainly choose to see it?

Originally Posted by Rezzy7

Oh, a thousand apologies, I thought they were the same thing. Oopsie.

From a Subjective Reality perspective, creation is subjectively, uh...created. So my vote would be the same, anyway.

To expand and relate more to your thread, I would say that subjective creation does not necessarily require one to "actively" create. You could just choose to go with the flow, in a state of contentment, and whatever is important or necessary for your well-being may simply come into your awareness, presence, or manifest, naturally without deliberate thought or action.

I'm not sure how you thought that. You don't see a different from how reality really is as compared to how you are living your life and creating your day to day life experience?

I'm not talking about any realities. I'm talking about how you LIVE your life. You either believe that you can do things and make things happen (Law Of Attracton), your you believe that your biology, personality, and circumstances determine everything (Going with the flow type scenario).

I'm starting to think maybe I said this whole question wrong...

Probably I should have said, determinism which is believing that there is no free will sense your biology, personality, and circumstances affect everything and your desire or freewill believing that you are absolutely free to do what you want with your life and nothing is influencing you and it is up to you to do whatever you want with your life.


How are you creating your life experience?

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by arpee

I never described SR or OR, I'm talking about how life experience is created! Are you creating your life experience subjectively:

example: I thought of a hamburger, I want a hamburger so I got one and ate it.

or is it more of an Objective Creation:

Example: If I want a hamburger at 12AM and all of the stores are closed, I can't do anything about it and have to just accept that I can't make that experience of me eating the hamburger BE right now.

You see, it seems like both is going on, as Razzy said, but I'm talking about how do you mainly choose to see it?


How are you creating your life experience?

Again, the way you describe both imply free will, because you used transitive verbs in both cases:

Subjectively: I thought, I want, I got one, I ate
Objectively: (I thought,) I want, I can't do, I have to accept, I can't make

But actually it's like this:

Subjectively: I make things happen
Objectively: Things just happen

Actually believing that you create your reality is a very simple conclusion: Because what I think and what I do usually match. But why do you think what you think?

ETA: And Laozi or Buddha never said go with the flow and feel happy, because there is no separate entity that could truly do anything or be anything. Being and doing is appearance only, an illusion.

[spacedout]

Subjectivity and Objectivity are concepts of the mind. Go beyond the mind and everything is the same - one and the same. There is no difference between SR and OR or S anything and O anything.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by arpee

I never described SR or OR, I'm talking about how life experience is created! Are you creating your life experience subjectively:

example: I thought of a hamburger, I want a hamburger so I got one and ate it.

or is it more of an Objective Creation:

Example: If I want a hamburger at 12AM and all of the stores are closed, I can't do anything about it and have to just accept that I can't make that experience of me eating the hamburger BE right now.

You see, it seems like both is going on, as Razzy said, but I'm talking about how do you mainly choose to see it?

Everything that is experienced is already part of creation, isn't it? This would include not only the person who imagines himself to be a creator instead of a creation, but also the thoughts about what to create. As such, there may very well be a correlation between the thought to manifest something, and the actual appearance of that 'something', but there is not a causative relationship. This correlation is what LOA'ers are seeing, but the conclusion that they are the cause of either the thought or the manifestation, is false.

[taylor]

Arpee, I think it's a combination.

There is a physical illusion that you can't change on its level with the mind level. You can't just will your car to transform into a ferrari and it will do so. That's magic, people have wanted it since time began, and it still doesn't exist. Technology's about as close to magic as you're gonna get and tech is physical, not mental. However you can visualize your car as a ferrari and use that energy to fuel your action to make it happen. But you need to put in physical work to change that physical condition. (Your physical body is an exception as your mind is immediately connected to it, so beliefs can change your body.)

However all of reality is experienced in the mind, so you can transcend any physical reality on the level of mind as taught by Buddha. What you get though is nonduality. You don't get to pick and choose the illusion looking a certain way.

As far as happiness is concerned, just think positive/appreciative thoughts all the time and you're happy. It's not even difficult.

[Arcanum]

As far as happiness is concerned, just think positive/appreciative thoughts all the time and you're happy. It's not even difficult.

Positive thinking doesn't work. You talk about happiness like it's something we should deal with when we have some spare time. The entirety of human endeavor for as long as humans have existed has been about trying to find permanent happiness, and it's not possible for a human to do that.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Positive thinking doesn't work. You talk about happiness like it's something we should deal with when we have some spare time. The entirety of human endeavor for as long as humans have existed has been about trying to find permanent happiness, and it's not possible for a human to do that.

How do you know that?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by taylor

How do you know that?

Because I'm the all knowing whatchamacallit thingy. Hehe.
Happiness is a subjective experience based entirely on past subjective experiences. As such, it is literally defined by the subjective experience of unhappiness. Hencely, both sides of the coin must be in your experience at all times. The only reason you know you are happy is because you know unhappiness. As the experience of unhappiness begins to fade, so does your experience of happiness, and so there is the continual movement between the polarities of happy and unhappy, each continually defining the other. I also know that this is your actual experience because that's how it works.

[arpee]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Because I'm the all knowing whatchamacallit thingy. Hehe.
Happiness is a subjective experience based entirely on past subjective experiences. As such, it is literally defined by the subjective experience of unhappiness. Hencely, both sides of the coin must be in your experience at all times. The only reason you know you are happy is because you know unhappiness. As the experience of unhappiness begins to fade, so does your experience of happiness, and so there is the continual movement between the polarities of happy and unhappy, each continually defining the other. I also know that this is your actual experience because that's how it works.

Uh, you CAN always be happy. Just change your thinking about whatever it is into something that feels better.

[mikej]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Because I'm the all knowing whatchamacallit thingy. Hehe.
Happiness is a subjective experience based entirely on past subjective experiences. As such, it is literally defined by the subjective experience of unhappiness. Hencely, both sides of the coin must be in your experience at all times. The only reason you know you are happy is because you know unhappiness. As the experience of unhappiness begins to fade, so does your experience of happiness, and so there is the continual movement between the polarities of happy and unhappy, each continually defining the other. I also know that this is your actual experience because that's how it works.

What about people who spend years stuck in a deep depression?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by arpee

That's true if you let outside circumstances effect. If you say, I need things to be happy, then of course you'll be unhappy at one point, because at some point you may not be able to get something.

Now, if you let your happiness be dependent on how true you are being to yourself... now you can be happy all the time because you made happiness one goal that you can always fulfill.

Being true to yourself, whatever that means, is not always going to make you happy. 'I'm living in my pickup truck and my wife left me and my dawg died (That's what country songs are made of) but I'm being true to myself so I'm happy.'

What I'm saying is that your experience of being happy, regardless of how that comes about, is always dependent upon your experience of unhappiness. Happiness can come about by seeking either happy or unhappy experiences. It makes no difference. Remember how good it feels when something bad stops happening? The happiness is unavoidable. It works both ways.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Because I'm the all knowing whatchamacallit thingy. Hehe.
Happiness is a subjective experience based entirely on past subjective experiences. As such, it is literally defined by the subjective experience of unhappiness. Hencely, both sides of the coin must be in your experience at all times. The only reason you know you are happy is because you know unhappiness. As the experience of unhappiness begins to fade, so does your experience of happiness, and so there is the continual movement between the polarities of happy and unhappy, each continually defining the other. I also know that this is your actual experience because that's how it works.

Hmm that's very interesting Arcanum.

I'll give ya that it's a condition and therefore not the Ultimate which you seem to be interested in, as am I. I'm just saying it's an easy thing to acquire even if it's not Buddhahood.

Like health, or having food to eat or clothes to wear. Everything dualistic is defined by its opposite, but that doesn't mean you just quit eating and stop wearing clothes. In the same way, happiness is just one of those things that you take care of like the oil in your car, even though it's not the Absolute.

[arpee]

I believe that life is like a stream, the more you allow yourself to pick up speed and flow, the better you feel, so YES! You can be happy ALL the time if you allow yourself to.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by arpee

Uh, you CAN always be happy. Just change your thinking about whatever it is into something that feels better.

Haha, maybe you should ask the mods to sticky that in the emotional mastery section. Unfortunately this couldn't be further from the truth. Furthermore, people idolize happiness but I guarantee you would eventually start to feel extremely unbalanced and trapped if all you could feel was happiness.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Haha, maybe you should ask the mods to sticky that in the emotional mastery section. Unfortunately this couldn't be further from the truth. Furthermore, people idolize happiness but I guarantee you would eventually start to feel extremely unbalanced and trapped if all you could feel was happiness.

lol, what?

If you felt good all the time you'd feel bad? Doesn't that contradict itself?

[VinceG]

Happiness isn't a logical condition, defined by something else's absence. It's a biological phenomenon that has a real-world presence inside your brain. It's very possible to be happy all the time, in the same way that it's possible for a television to always be on. You just don't turn it off.

It's difficult, sure. But certainly possible.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by taylor

lol, what?

If you felt good all the time you'd feel bad? Doesn't that contradict itself?

It's not possible to feel happy all the time forever. I'm saying you would eventually reach the point of feeling unbalanced and it would collapse completely on its own whether you decided to flood your brain with cheery thoughts or not. Emotions are merely reflections of the mind and the mind reflects your emotions. You can't feel an emotion 100% of the time just in the same way you can't only keep one thought in your head permanently with nothing else ever arising and falling away.

Are you happy all the time?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

It's not possible to feel happy all the time forever. I'm saying you would eventually reach the point of feeling unbalanced and it would collapse completely on its own whether you decided to flood your brain with cheery thoughts or not. Emotions are merely reflections of the mind and the mind reflects your emotions. You can't feel an emotion 100% of the time just in the same way you can't only keep one thought in your head permanently with nothing else ever arising and falling away.

Are you happy all the time?

There's a difference between artificial cheeriness and true happiness, and if you've never experienced the latter, you won't be able to tell it from the former. St33med is an excellent example of someone whose gone through the cycles you're outlining.

I'm happy all the time, the happiness I feel has become a backdrop on which all my other emotions and experiences display against. If I become frustrated, I'm happy and frustrated. If I'm angry, I'm happy and angry. The happiness has so fused with my way of life that I literally can't imagine living without it. I could be homeless on the streets, hungry and cold, and the happiness would still be present, providing a steadying influence on my behavior and thoughts.

[RevDella]

I believe that each of us creates our own personal world. Our reality is a reflection of our deeply held conscious and subconscious beliefs.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by taylor

Hmm that's very interesting Arcanum.

I'll give ya that it's a condition and therefore not the Ultimate which you seem to be interested in, as am I. I'm just saying it's an easy thing to acquire even if it's not Buddhahood.

Like health, or having food to eat or clothes to wear. Everything dualistic is defined by its opposite, but that doesn't mean you just quit eating and stop wearing clothes. In the same way, happiness is just one of those things that you take care of like the oil in your car, even though it's not the Absolute.

It's not the same at all. If you didn't take care of the happy/unhappy duality, it would take care of itself, even if we assume you are the one taking care of things.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by arpee

I believe that life is like a stream, the more you allow yourself to pick up speed and flow, the better you feel, so YES! You can be happy ALL the time if you allow yourself to.

You can't.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It's not the same at all. If you didn't take care of the happy/unhappy duality, it would take care of itself, even if we assume you are the one taking care of things.

If I didn't take care of the eating food/starving duality, that would take care of itself too, by me starving.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by mikej

What about people who spend years stuck in a deep depression?

Their subjective experience over all moves toward balance. Within that, there are periods of happiness and periods of unhappiness. How long each of them lasts isn't relevant.