The Ego Loves Self-Improvement

[zeitgeist]

Self-improvement gives the ego something to work with. You aspire, become, live in the future. You have a suspicion that you are miserable now, but guess what, it doesn't matter because you will be better off, enlightened, in the future! Please stop fooling yourself my friend, embrace the now, accept that you are naked and realize that you are drifting like a leaf in the wind. After that realization there is nothing more to fear and perhaps at that moment there is peace of mind.

[mikej]

Not necessarily imo. For some people, self-improvement involves diminishing the power of the ego.

[berkalerk]

I've always felt self-criticism and dislike comes from an evolutionary need to continue advancing intellectually and socially. If we cannot see our faults, then we have no basis for growth. A young soul's ego will have much difficulty in, not recognizing, but accepting and changing their faults. I've seen this behavior almost on a daily occurrence, although I truly believe anyone can have a paradigm shift and become a better person in whichever relative way.

"Leaf in the wind" never really worked for me, although I do believe everything happens for a reason and fate plays roles in our lives, I've always felt discord with the mindset only because I feel I gain more control over my life by believing I have more control.

Good insight nonetheless, my friend.
-Jimmy

[VinceG]

Yeah, I don't do much personal development for this reason. All the things I want in life, I'm happy going at it slowly and learning bit by bit over time. Maybe one day I'll want the challenge of getting a college degree in three semesters, but for now I'm happy playing the long game.

[taylor]

I had a quote from Fight Club as my signature not too long ago.
"Maybe self-improvement isn't the answer.
Maybe self-destruction is the answer."

Self-improvement is a narcissistic goal in a lot of ways. I've taken this lesson to heart and my life has kind of stagnated in several ways. My spiritual life is healthier than it's ever been, but I'm just kind of just drifting along. I feel like I'm ready to try setting goals without having goals.

I'm going to try an experiment in july of giving myself action items aligned with ambitious goals, but not actually holding the goals mentally. So I'll only be receiving action items, and while following them I stay in the present, surrendering to God as best I can. I won't consider the outcome or the goal I'm trying to achieve, because I'm not trying to achieve anything. I'm just taking action. This is as much just to give myself something to do as I'm wasting a lot of time these days.

I got this idea from reading the Bhagavad-Gita which seems to indicate that you don't do yourself any favors by not taking action, but that you just need to let go of any attachment to outcome. You can't desire the things you work towards, and you can't even hold them in mind like goals, but instead fix your intent on God even in the midst of action. It says the wise person knows in the midst of activity "I do nothing at all."

I think it might be possible to have your cake and eat it too, as long as you don't want your cake and are eating just to eat.

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by mikej

Not necessarily imo. For some people, self-improvement involves diminishing the power of the ego.

What is the ego to you? I think different definitions are being used here....

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by taylor

It says the wise person knows in the midst of activity "I do nothing at all."

Do you do stuff like kendo? That discipline teaches that you do not strike, "it" strikes....

I think this is "being in the now," "going with the flow," that kind of stuff.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by SquarePeg

Do you do stuff like kendo? That discipline teaches that you do not strike, "it" strikes....

I think this is "being in the now," "going with the flow," that kind of stuff.

Haven't done kendo but that sounds like the kind of state that would be ideal when doing self-improvement... that is NOT trying to change anything. Just letting the process flow.

[spacedout]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

Self-improvement gives the ego something to work with. You aspire, become, live in the future. You have a suspicion that you are miserable now, but guess what, it doesn't matter because you will be better off, enlightened, in the future! Please stop fooling yourself my friend, embrace the now, accept that you are naked and realize that you are drifting like a leaf in the wind. After that realization there is nothing more to fear and perhaps at that moment there is peace of mind.

The desire for peace of mind as well as the desire for improvement is the ego talking. Some people think that this is a bad thing but it isn't. It is simply the ego. Knowing that it is the ego is all that's necessary. The ego has many characteristics and can change from one to another in the blink of an eye. By noticing the actions of the ego is called awareaness.

Pure Awareness
www.pureawareaness.info

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by spacedout

The desire for peace of mind as well as the desire for improvement is the ego talking. Some people think that this is a bad thing but it isn't. It is simply the ego. Knowing that it is the ego is all that's necessary. The ego has many characteristics and can change from one to another in the blink of an eye. By noticing the actions of the ego is called awareaness.

Pure Awareness
www.pureawareaness.info

I am surprised that you even call the desire for peace of mind as the ego talking. What about our desire to experience love or the desire to return to our core, the union with God - do you think this is the ego talking as well?

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by taylor

Haven't done kendo but that sounds like the kind of state that would be ideal when doing self-improvement... that is NOT trying to change anything. Just letting the process flow.

Yeah, I couldn't understand a lot of "Zen-talk" until actually *doing* things! Seems to me that words reinforce ego but action can dispel it....

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

I am surprised that you even call the desire for peace of mind as the ego talking. What about our desire to experience love or the desire to return to our core, the union with God - do you think this is the ego talking as well?

Sure...wanting, desiring...what is it that desires?

A trite example, which can be extrapolated to the present discussion: ever notice how much better your wife/husband suddenly appears when you catch other people obviously desiring him/her??

[spacedout]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

I am surprised that you even call the desire for peace of mind as the ego talking. What about our desire to experience love or the desire to return to our core, the union with God - do you think this is the ego talking as well?

Yes. Desire for anything is a characteristic of the ego.

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by spacedout

Yes. Desire for anything is a characteristic of the ego.

Doesn't that imply that Jnana yoga - the pursuit of wisdom - is meaningless and all you can do is to sit somewhere meditating and waiting for inspiration?

[spacedout]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

Doesn't that imply that Jnana yoga - the pursuit of wisdom - is meaningless and all you can do is to sit somewhere meditating and waiting for inspiration?

On the contrary, just because desire is a characteristic of the ego doesn't mean that the ego is always "bad." Desire is a basic human trait that not only encourages the pursuit of wisdom but many other forms of self improvement. The desire to go beyond the horizon to discover new worlds could be considered a desirable trait. The ego is simply a thought that there must be something better than what I've got here, now. That thought places the thinker on the other side of an object, producing duality. Like I said, there is nothing wrong with having an ego unless it separates beings to the point of believing one is better than another being and forcing those beliefs on others. A belief is any idea or thought that the mind assumes to be true. To go beyond the mind and the ego is one of he greatest quests spirituality can have. That quest can lead to having no desires or quests - arriving at pure awareness. Even the desire to develop pure awareness is the ego.

Being able to recognize the ego and seeing it for what it is; an illusion - a manesfistation of the mind, gives you greater clarity of what is. It allows you to broaden your mind and open up consciousness to higher levels. I'm sorry, I'm getting carried away here.

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by spacedout

Being able to recognize the ego and seeing it for what it is; an illusion - a manesfistation of the mind, gives you greater clarity of what is. It allows you to broaden your mind and open up consciousness to higher levels. I'm sorry, I'm getting carried away here.

If the self is us, the intersection of all the holy and not so holy thoughts, feelings and actions, would it perhaps make sense to define the ego as the force that tries to keep you away from the core? I am pretty sure that this force exist as I have discovered it myself.

[spacedout]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

If the self is us, the intersection of all the holy and not so holy thoughts, feelings and actions, would it perhaps make sense to define the ego as the force that tries to keep you away from the core? I am pretty sure that this force exist as I have discovered it myself.

I didn't mention anything about the self in that post but since you mention it, I would have to say that the self is not us but, rather, who we think we are. As you say, the self is all of our thoughts, feelings, values, and so on but to define it as "the force that tries to keep you away from the core" is, in my opinion, a little too ambiguous. What do you mean by force - what is it and where does it come from? And how can a force "try" to do anything. Also, what do you mean by "the core?"

Although they are closely associated with one another, the self and the ego are not the same. The self consists of the various, personal values and feelings one is born with and those values and feelings develop further on in life. The ego is the belief that the self is separate from others. One can have a self with no ego but it's impossible to have an ego and no self.

Pure Awareness
Pureawareness.info. Pure Awareness

[SethWilliams]

Originally Posted by taylor

I had a quote from Fight Club as my signature not too long ago.
"Maybe self-improvement isn't the answer.
Maybe self-destruction is the answer."

Self-improvement is a narcissistic goal in a lot of ways. I've taken this lesson to heart and my life has kind of stagnated in several ways. My spiritual life is healthier than it's ever been, but I'm just kind of just drifting along. I feel like I'm ready to try setting goals without having goals.

I'm going to try an experiment in july of giving myself action items aligned with ambitious goals, but not actually holding the goals mentally. So I'll only be receiving action items, and while following them I stay in the present, surrendering to God as best I can. I won't consider the outcome or the goal I'm trying to achieve, because I'm not trying to achieve anything. I'm just taking action. This is as much just to give myself something to do as I'm wasting a lot of time these days.

I got this idea from reading the Bhagavad-Gita which seems to indicate that you don't do yourself any favors by not taking action, but that you just need to let go of any attachment to outcome. You can't desire the things you work towards, and you can't even hold them in mind like goals, but instead fix your intent on God even in the midst of action. It says the wise person knows in the midst of activity "I do nothing at all."

I think it might be possible to have your cake and eat it too, as long as you don't want your cake and are eating just to eat.

So why complete the action at all?

[taylor]

Originally Posted by SethWilliams

So why complete the action at all?

For its own sake. The action is complete unto itself. It doesn't need an end goal.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by spacedout

Yes. Desire for anything is a characteristic of the ego.

I'd rather ego than lack of ego any day. If you don't want your ego, give it to me, I'd love to have it.

[taylor]

Btw I've been doing this whole "goal without goal" thing nonstop for hours and I feel really strange. There is this center and my decision to be a certain way is there, but then there is this waveringness and it keeps getting replaced with the decision again, like a continually renewal of intention. At first there were large waves of waveringness constantly replaced with large waves of desires, but now it's smoothed out into almost one continuous thing. It's pretty weird.

I feel more focused and way more action oriented but also like I'm stuck in my center and can't get moved by desires this way or that way. It's like both my intention and my surrendering are getting focused and intensified and damn it just feels like the momentum is so intense now that I can't stop even though I'm a little psychologically uncomfortable with this drastic change. It's like I'd have to push with all my might to get off center or off my intention. It's so focused I'm not used to this.

If I die, avenge my death.

[VinceG]

I think when you get to a certain level of mental awareness you can start working directly with the structures of the mind. I've used tricks like this in the past when I had a job and I wanted to make things happen quickly. Right now I feel like I can do anything I want to, it's just the 'wanting' part that's missing. So now I'm trying to want stuff.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by VinceG

I think when you get to a certain level of mental awareness you can start working directly with the structures of the mind. I've used tricks like this in the past when I had a job and I wanted to make things happen quickly. Right now I feel like I can do anything I want to, it's just the 'wanting' part that's missing. So now I'm trying to want stuff.

Yeah it's playing around with some deeper structures that I don't know the boundaries of.

Wanting to want.. there's a weird thing. Have you done the thing in the past where you set the biggest most outlandish goals in every area of your life? That's what I basically just re-did since I remember what they were. Did you know I'm going to become a billionaire? Rofl. I don't really care about them but it'll give me a chance to learn greater self-control and discipline in a karma yoga way. Goals are more about how deciding to be a CEO (for example) focuses your mind along the journey.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by taylor

Yeah it's playing around with some deeper structures that I don't know the boundaries of.

Wanting to want.. there's a weird thing. Have you done the thing in the past where you set the biggest most outlandish goals in every area of your life?

My goals have always been more about being a certain kind a person rather than accomplishing particular things. I wanted to be like the characters in the books I read. I picked up on all these moral and ethical imperatives and set my mind to appropriating them.

[Josee]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

Self-improvement gives the ego something to work with. You aspire, become, live in the future. You have a suspicion that you are miserable now, but guess what, it doesn't matter because you will be better off, enlightened, in the future! Please stop fooling yourself my friend, embrace the now, accept that you are naked and realize that you are drifting like a leaf in the wind. After that realization there is nothing more to fear and -- at that moment there is peace of mind.

Brilliant.

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

Doesn't that imply that Jnana yoga - the pursuit of wisdom - is meaningless and all you can do is to sit somewhere meditating and waiting for inspiration?

The problem with desire is that it often if not always influence your perspective: "to a hammer, every problem looks like a nail" and all that.

To even desire cessation of desire is the ego at work!

[cortocabezas1111]

The ego loves to talk about ego.

[alphamind]

The ego loves to talk about the ego talking about the ego!

[cortocabezas1111]

Originally Posted by alphamind

The ego loves to talk about the ego talking about the ego!

The ego loves to talk about how the ego loves to talk about the ego talking about ego!

[spacedout]

The ego takes place at some subtly level and then grows. It is like a dandelion with long, tendrile roots intertwining within the values and feelings of the self until the self believes it is the ego.