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-   -   Does the concept of "atrocity" or hurt matter? (http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/spirituality-consciousness-awareness/63743-does-concept-atrocity-hurt-matter.html)

Ilikeindowem 06-17-2011 04:05 PM
Does the concept of "atrocity" or hurt matter?
 
I am not a spiritually inclined person, but I think that an elemental aspect of our species' nature is cruelty and inhumanity. This is evident throughout our history. Why then should cruelty matter if we have a propensity towards it?

Does acceptance of eventualities in life bring peace to the mind and spirit?

taylor 06-17-2011 04:14 PM
Forgiveness of perceived cruelty and violence brings peace of mind. It's not "good" or "bad", but just part of human kind's animal nature. Do you see lions as evil when they eat the gazelle or fight each other for a mate?

Being cruel and violent yourself however will not bring peace of mind because a cruel and violent mind cannot be peaceful.

Ilikeindowem 06-17-2011 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor (Post 924659)
Forgiveness of perceived cruelty and violence brings peace of mind. It's not "good" or "bad", but just part of human kind's animal nature. Do you see lions as evil when they eat the gazelle or fight each other for a mate?
Humans are sapient, whilst lions are not.
Quote:
Being cruel and violent yourself however will not bring peace of mind because a cruel and violent mind cannot be peaceful.
Why? As it is in our nature, why not let it be?

taylor 06-17-2011 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem (Post 924664)
Humans are sapient, whilst lions are not.
Humans think they're more conscious and in control than they really are. That's part of the illusion of the ego, that there is the individual identity that is making decisions and knows good from bad. If you don't just flatly condemn people for anything you will see that there is always an explanation of why they do certain things and you don't.

People are only doing what they think they want within their limits of understanding. The person who is cruel towards animals for example thinks that what he wants is the satisfaction of being violent. He sees that if he were to stop it would result in him losing pleasure, so he continues. He's actually so addicted to the pleasure that he doesn't see that there is greater freedom and happiness from not being violent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem (Post 924664)
Why? As it is in our nature, why not let it be?
A mind that is attacking is by definition not at peace. "Letting it be" in the context I think you're talking about would be to continue energizing violence in your mind. That is only "letting it be" in a theoretical sense. When you are actually angry at someone and want revenge, your mind is anything but peaceful.

Ilikeindowem 06-17-2011 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor (Post 924683)
Humans think they're more conscious and in control than they really are. That's part of the illusion of the ego, that there is the individual identity that is making decisions and knows good from bad. If you don't just flatly condemn people for anything you will see that there is always an explanation of why they do certain things and you don't.

People are only doing what they think they want within their limits of understanding. The person who is cruel towards animals for example thinks that what he wants is the satisfaction of being violent. He sees that if he were to stop it would result in him losing pleasure, so he continues. He's actually so addicted to the pleasure that he doesn't see that there is greater freedom and happiness from not being violent.


A mind that is attacking is by definition not at peace. "Letting it be" in the context I think you're talking about would be to continue energizing violence in your mind. That is only "letting it be" in a theoretical sense. When you are actually angry at someone and want revenge, your mind is anything but peaceful.
Letting it be should be accepting that humans are cruel and not doing anything about it.

Arcanum 06-17-2011 04:41 PM
So if the lion knew what he was doing, he would become a vegetarian??

Fighting over a mate has genetic advantages for the species. The lion isn't trying to be good or moral, it's just responding spontaneously to it's nature. The notion that such an animal would not behave as it does if it knew better is already the judgment of the behavior that separates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom, and it's this judgment that leads to suffering.

Whether or not judgment is inherent in human nature depends upon perspective. It is in the nature of 'self aware' creatures to experience suffering and to respond in various ways to that suffering, including violence, but this same ability allows for the possibility to also transcend that suffering, and therefore the behavior.

Arcanum 06-17-2011 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem (Post 924664)
Humans are sapient, whilst lions are not.

I would not apply wisdom and discernment to humans in general. (Or do you mean sentient?)

Ilikeindowem 06-17-2011 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanum (Post 924693)
I would not apply wisdom and discernment to humans in general. (Or do you mean sentient?)
Sapient means the ability to reason. Reason is subjective though, granted.

taylor 06-17-2011 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem (Post 924686)
Letting it be should be accepting that humans are cruel and not doing anything about it.
That's ok if you want. You can't be mentally violent and at peace though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanum (Post 924688)
So if the lion knew what he was doing, he would become a vegetarian??
The lion isn't going to know what he's doing. I can't answer hypotheticals as if they were real possibilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanum (Post 924688)
Fighting over a mate has genetic advantages for the species. The lion isn't trying to be good or moral, it's just responding spontaneously to it's nature.
Right. Neither are humans trying to be good and moral most of the time. They are seldom conscious and seldom make conscious ethical decisions. If you test them on ethical behavior they fail usually. If you remind them of their code and then test, almost everyone passes. They are just running on emotional autopilot usually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanum (Post 924688)
The notion that such an animal would not behave as it does if it knew better is already the judgment of the behavior that separates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom, and it's this judgment that leads to suffering.
Huh? I didn't say it would act differently. It's a lion. :p

taylor 06-17-2011 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem (Post 924701)
Sapient means the ability to reason. Reason is subjective though, granted.
Very few can actually reason imo. Mostly when people believe that they're thinking logically, it's really just rationalizing emotional whims. Consult Freud for more info. :p

Ilikeindowem 06-17-2011 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor (Post 924702)
That's ok if you want. You can't be mentally violent and at peace though.
Why not? If people wish to be cruel, it's their own business and nobody should stop them.

Ilikeindowem 06-17-2011 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor (Post 924703)
Very few can actually reason imo. Mostly when people believe that they're thinking logically, it's really just rationalizing emotional whims. Consult Freud for more info. :p
Man is a mix of emotion and logic. Besides, logic is simply a process of reasoning. Anything therefore can be logically derived and justified.

taylor 06-17-2011 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem (Post 924706)
Why not? If people wish to be cruel, it's their own business and nobody should stop them.
I didn't say to stop anyone. I'm talking about on the level of mind. You can't attack someone mentally and at the same time be at peace mentally. To have mental peace you can't have attack and to have attack you can't have peace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem (Post 924710)
Man is a mix of emotion and logic. Besides, logic is simply a process of reasoning. Anything therefore can be logically derived and justified.
Nothing can be logically deduced without illogical assumptions. Consult Quantum Psychology for more info. :D

Ilikeindowem 06-17-2011 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor (Post 924716)
I didn't say to stop anyone. I'm talking about on the level of mind. You can't attack someone mentally and at the same time be at peace mentally. To have mental peace you can't have attack and to have attack you can't have peace.
Why is peace relevant? Not everybody is concerned with peace.

Quote:
Nothing can be logically deduced without illogical assumptions. Consult Quantum Psychology for more info. :D
Yes, man is a mix of irrationality. Who would say otherwise?

taylor 06-17-2011 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem (Post 924650)
Does acceptance of eventualities in life bring peace to the mind and spirit?
Thought peace was relevant by this quote. Certainly not everyone wants peace, but you brought it up. :p

Ilikeindowem 06-17-2011 05:06 PM
When did I bring it up? My essential point was that with acceptance of reality as is, peace will come. If humans can be cruel, and nobody will stop them, then what does it matter? Simply except that humans can be savage and move on.

taylor 06-17-2011 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem (Post 924726)
When did I bring it up? My essential point was that with acceptance of reality as is, peace will come. If humans can be cruel, and nobody will stop them, then what does it matter? Simply except that humans can be savage and move on.
Right. I agree. :)

Also on seeing something as cruel and evil and an atrocity, that's really only speaking about what you personally want. If you think that a brutal murder was bad, it's only because you wanted things to be different. If you don't dictate to the universe how things should be and instead forgive whatever is happening, good and evil disappear. There is just what is. Then even "tragic" things are perfect.

Ilikeindowem 06-17-2011 05:26 PM
I don't believe in a spiritualist universe, but I simply feel if cruelty cannot be stopped, then it can only be managed around.

Arcanum 06-18-2011 03:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor (Post 924702)

The lion isn't going to know what he's doing. I can't answer hypotheticals as if they were real possibilities.

Huh? I didn't say it would act differently. It's a lion. :p

You said the lion kills the gazelle and fights for a mate because it knows not what it does. My question ( So if the lion knew what he was doing, he would become a vegetarian??) was rhetorical. You don't need to answer it. The point was that a lion doesn't eat a gazelle because it doesn't know better.

Arcanum 06-18-2011 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem (Post 924726)
When did I bring it up?
You brought it up at 9:05am when you said "Does acceptance of eventualities in life bring peace to the mind and spirit?:
You brought it up again when you summarized your "essential point" in the next sentence.



Quote:
My essential point was that with acceptance of reality as is, peace will come.
The essential problem with humanity is not violence but unconsciousness.
(And sapient does not mean the ability to reason):p


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