your opinions

[SecretSeven]

I didn't believe in God until about year ago. I accepted the evolution standpoint and believed consciousness arose from matter. 'After life' in my mind was just a delusion people believed to make themselves feel better. I suscribed to this belief, because I could not see how consciousness could live on after the death of our brains. Once I learned about the "unified or one consciousness belief," I felt a renewed sense of faith. As you all know very well, this belief states that matter and the world came from consciousness. Finally, I felt some hope that maybe there is more than what we are taught in history books. This idea seems much more practical. I still believe in evolution, I think it is impossible to deny the proof that scientists and archeologists have found.

I'm still questioning my belief in God, but am feeling more and more confident that someone exists "up there." Another reason I've had trouble believing in God and afterlife is because what happens to animals? Regardless of what people say, animals are conscious. And we humans are no more than highly evolved animals (whether we like to admit it or not.) So, if we went to the after life, then it would make sense that animals would too. And if animals went to afterlife than it would make sense that bugs went to the afterlife as aswell. A lot of people say that bugs are too small, too insignifcant. But isn't it true that we are no more than "bugs" in the grandscheme of things? I think that a belief in afterlife, would require us to have sense of superiority. What makes us think we are special enough to live on after death? Why are we any more special than animals?

[Lychee]

Since the Being who put this whole world into existence is the most perfect and wise, we must trust that what happens to animals after death will be done with perfection and wisdom.

[ZHereford]

Every living thing has consciousness or energy in a scientific sense. Everything has a vibration, some higher than others.
We are all in a process of evolution and at varying levels.

The law of physics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it only change form. (the soul, after life).

To me this confirms the existence of God, it does not refute it.

For some reason there are people who think God and evolution are incompatible. That's not the case. Everything changes and evolves. Nothing stays the same. Techology and science are moving us forward and always have.

[ethereal]

Creation and Evolution are one and the same, as Dr. Hawkins states. Evolution is just the unfolding of Creation.

Like Zhereford said, there is law of conservation of energy and matter, and there is also the law of conservation of life. Life can only change form, it cannot disappear. Something cannot change into nothing, it's logical common sense. Life originates from consciousness, and consciousness has nothing to do with the physical body.

Dr. Hawkins has done extensive research into what happens to animals after they die. I'd be happy to share with you on PM or type it up here if people are interested.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Is it? Is energy constant? I dunno. I think there is a froce that can bring things INTO existance. and OUT of existance. Basically winking atoms out of this dimension.

[Shaden]

I think there is a froce that can bring things INTO existance. and OUT of existance. Basically winking atoms out of this dimension.

If that's true then Physics has a lot of explaining to do.

[Simmiah]

Actually I'm not one of those people who think an insect is insignificant. Hmm there is an interesting story in my new Sufism book that talked about it but I'll paraphrase.

Basically there was this wealthy woman who did many good things. She helped build all kinds of buildings...donated money... & one day she was at one of the sites where a new building was being constructed & she saw an ant stuck in the wet concrete. She picked up the ant gently & set it on the ground where it would be safe. After she died she came back & visited some of her friends & they saw that she was in a very good place. They wondered what it was that got her there & she said well.. it was the ant!

I believe all beings have consciousness.. plants..etc.. & actually maybe everything does. I don't know but anyways we're not above everything else.. actually some pets calibrate higher according to Hawkins than some people so you're right about some people being nothing more than intelligent animals doing instinctual things. So.. I'd bet money we all go to places we all are drawn to after death & no being is left behind. Or something like that.

[SecretSeven]

Thanx for the input guys

[negate7o4]

If we humans create a robot or machine to do things for us it obviously doenst have a soul. But I a "god" makes insects and animalls to keep the ego
system in tact they do? i dont think so! Does the dear or chicken that you ate last night also have consciousness? and the tree you cut down for your paper does it have consciousness? if something is created it has purpose obviously. purpose does not constutite consciousness!

[SecretSeven]

In the consciousness belief system, consciousness is the container inwhich everything exists.

[negate7o4]

life is the container in which everything exists. Consciousness is to be awake and aware of one's surroundings and/or identity. How about you go study animals and see if they are awake and aware or are they surviving on instink!

here is a interessting fact for you if you put a frog in boiling water he would obiously jump out! but if you put a frog in cold water and slowly turn up the heat the frog wil boil do death and never jump out!! why you ask because a frog can only regonize and react to a big change in its enviroment if you change the eviroment slowly and gradully he wouldnt be aware of that.

To be awake of ones surroundings is Consciousness
no dis respect meant but Consciousness and life are 2 differant things
just because it has life does not say its Consciousness

[SecretSeven]

Just because animals are less inteligent does not mean that they are not conscious. That's like saying that toddlers aren't conscious. They may not be have the ability to reason that we have, but they are aware of their surroundings, they feel pain and emotion.

[negate7o4]

I think your missing the point! I didnt constitute intelegence to Consciousness and you do get animals
with high intelegence. intelegence, Consciousness, Life are entirely differant things! There exists enourmes amount of intelegent programs like highly devolped BIS systems of big companies. Does this mean there intelegent programs has Consciousness

[SecretSeven]

Yes, but animals are conscious nonetheless. They may just be at a different level of consciousness. A lot of people say that animals aren't conscious because they act on instinct, but isn't that true for humans too?

[Simmiah]

Originally Posted by SecretSeven

Yes, but animals are conscious nonetheless. They may just be at a different level of consciousness. A lot of people say that animals aren't conscious because they act on instinct, but isn't that true for humans too?

Yes actually according to Hawkins. He says the scale of consciousness isn't like some kind of ladder but rather reflects the degree of illusion by which one chooses to live with.

There are some people who act purely on instinct/habit/unconsciousness (I can say I've been there myself so I can understand this...) & I've observed it in others as well.

Consciousness/Life may be the same wording for the same thing & a Rose by any other name may still smell so sweet to mis-quote Shakespeare. heh.

[negate7o4]

Originally Posted by Simmiah

There are some people who act purely on instinct/habit/unconsciousness (I can say I've been there myself so I can understand this...) & I've observed it in others as well.

Dont know if you ever heard of a religion/cult thing called matrix V they believe
people who go purely on instinct/habit has no soul, and when you get your soul you get consciousness and the age when each person gets their soul differs.

Well i think its crap but still interessting reading
Matrix V - Quest of the Spirit - The Ultimate Frontier - GOLD EDITION 2003

[SecretSeven]

Wow. People believe the strangest things. Solipsism, Matrix cults, People believing they are Gods... "to each his own" I guess. Infact, people who suscribe to subjective reality believe that other people are not conscious

I tried checking out that matrix V website, but it didn't work. Is it kind of like subjective reality?

[negate7o4]

yeah your right. Think its something in people to attach to something to believe in! what i know of matrix V is they believe everyone is higher beings at differant levels of experience. And as you die and get reincarnated you gain more and more experience until the end when you find you higher self

everyone looks for answers its up to the person what he wants to believe.
for me i dont believe in anything that another human says because you will never know do they realy know the truth or is it just their interpretation of the truth?

[valis]

I think it's more than just attaching yourself to somethign you believe in. I think it's both a never-ending and a spiritual quest to define our place amongst the cosmos, to see if we are nothing more than a mote in God's eye, or part of some larger, more universal consciousness.

That's just me, though. I totally agree it's up to the person to believe what they want to believe. However, if you don't believe what another human says, I would at least hope that you take in what they are saying, and look it over for the interesting parts, rather than throw it out wholesale. Some of the more interesting concepts I've heard have come from some of the people who I think have all 6 cans, but are missing the little plastic thing holding them together.

[tomn8er]

Originally Posted by SecretSeven

Infact, people who suscribe to subjective reality believe that other people are not conscious

Uh, I don't think it's that simple. I currently don't fully agree with subjective reality as Steve describes it, but I've read all his articles and podcasts on the subject and the point that he doesn't really stress too well is that, according to SR, you are everyone else! So everyone and everything is conscious. It's a lot to get your head around to be sure, and I don't really understand it except on a theoretical level, but the analogy of reality being like giant collective dream in which you (not you as a physical person, but YOU as a universal Consciousness) are the dreamer, or in some senses, the dream itself.

Sorry that my explanation is kind of awkward. Just trying to describe SR is difficult because our language is built upon egoistic forms of logic. We refer to everything in terms of separation, as "mine" or "yours", so its really difficult to express holistic concepts like subjective reality because these concepts transcend our egoistic understanding of the world that our language is based on. I guess that's why a lot of the world's religions say that God is ineffable, our language simply can't do God justice.

Anyway, sorry to go off on a tangent, just wanted to point that out.

[tomn8er]

Originally Posted by negate7o4

what i know of matrix V is they believe everyone is higher beings at differant levels of experience. And as you die and get reincarnated you gain more and more experience until the end when you find you higher self

That's basically Buddhist philosophy in a nutshell. And maybe Gnostic Christianity as well, I haven't really read enough on these topics to be sure, but this notion of reincarnation based on 'experience' sounds the same in principle to the notion of reincarnation based on karma in the Buddhist and Hindu religions. The finding of the higher self sounds equivalent to achieving enlightenment in Buddhism, which frees one from the endless succession of reincarnations into samsara (this physical reality of suffering.) So that Matrix V cult as you describe it doesn't sound too outlandish.

[openeyes]

To me, matter is created by and IS consciousness. Maybe one can look at it as the whole raindrop and ocean setup, with particles being in some ways separate at different parts of the cycle and then returning to the source, having quite an adventure along the way. Life is god playing hide and seek with itself. Some people eventually start to feel that the only game worth playing is spiritual development. They begin to focus wholeheartedly on their hide and seek game to bring it to completion, rushing down the river back to sea.

Meanwhile others get distracted and come up with plenty of other mini games that fit within the larger whole. One can prolong the hiding process with excessive alcohol, workaholism, or whatever else keeps one busy/unfocused. Some pursue those games to the hilt, get to a point where they no longer matter, and then move on to what they see as the ultimate game, seeking one’s source. All in good time. Have fun. I don’t believe anyone ever stays lost. Where is there to go?

“We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.”

~ T. S. Eliot

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by negate7o4

Dont know if you ever heard of [...] matrix V

I wondered if anyone would ever bring this book up. There'd been times when I considered mentioning it, such as the 2012 thread, but it's simply not a text I widely recommend. Having first read it several years ago, I found it held some very interesting views, but that overall it promoted a maladaptive, paranoid way of existing in the world. Another that I'm careful of is David Icke's work, which is in a very similar vein.

That said, it was the first book to make me aware of potentially beneficial aspects of bi/homosexuality in the spiritual arena (also covered briefly by Eckhart Tolle), and when I emailed the author about my personal experiences he told me about an excellent book on the subject by anthropologist Walter L. Williams, The Spirit and the Flesh: Sexual Diversity in American Indian Culture.

One may be able to gain something from Matrix V if one simply takes what makes sense at the moment and drops the rest. Personally I don't concern myself with thoughts of reptilian aliens or dire happenings centered around 2012. Even if such things ended up taking place, believing that now would do nothing to improve my experience of the present. The focus on seeing the humor in life fits me well though. My criteria of truth is whatever proves functional. If something does nothing to improve things, it is of either zero or negative value.

I have the first two volumes of MV plus some other works by the publisher, and may even purchase volume 3. For me, such books written as nonfiction take the place of reading openly fictional works. The fringe can be an interesting place for new ideas.

Again, I would not recommend Matrix V to anyone looking for any sort of bible to follow. If one needs that, check out Harry Browne's How I found freedom in an unfree world. MV is only for people that know better than to accept anyone's dogma at face value. Fully absorbed, it may serve as more poison than cure.

[SecretSeven]

Those are all interesting theories, but what truth are they based upon? They seem like ideas people happened to stumble upon, and fell in love with. I felt myself drawn to many religions and beliefs during throughout the years. But after awhile, I realize that none of them are based upon facts, or even half facts - just dreams, and fantasies. Sorry I'm not dissing anyone's beliefs, and still want to hear about more. I guess I just have trouble with that whole "blind faith" thing.

[Simmiah]

Originally Posted by SecretSeven

Those are all interesting theories, but what truth are they based upon? They seem like ideas people happened to stumble upon, and fell in love with. I felt myself drawn to many religions and beliefs during throughout the years. But after awhile, I realize that none of them are based upon facts, or half facts. Just dreams, and fantasies. Sorry I'm not dissing anyone's beliefs, and still want to hear about more. I guess I just have trouble with that whole "blind faith" thing.

Totally fine & I hear you on this because I was agnostic for years because I honestly didn't find anything that I wanted to have blind faith in.

Actually..not very often discussed is where faith actually comes from. When you're open to something & are willing to try it out (heh Steve's 30 day trials come to mind here for me)... well, then you experience it. That is where faith in ____ comes in be it.. faith that it's BS or faith that it's true in that instance etc...

I don't actually recommend blind faith because it's where cults get their fodder. So... I would say, keep going.. ask questions & be open yet discerning.

I developed faith only after I had experienced enough personally of myself to understand & see things in a different light. Initially I had no clue my experience was spiritual until I stumbled onto several writings which confirmed my experience & then some.. that was when I was able to at least believe what I knew & experienced myself. Prior to that experience I passed right by most of the books on the spiritual bookshelf & was indifferent to mysticism & other kinds of stuff. I had a minor inclination & curiosity with paranormal stuff but that's fallen to the wayside pretty much now. So.. if you are really really curious like I was.. keep asking.. & umm try stuff out & ask to experience it for yourself (LoA will take care of that for you). & then interesting things tend to happen I've noticed.

I have been growing recently at a pretty interesting pace & am finding much more to be confirmed through this avenue of knowledge. Btw, developing a gut instinct will steer you clear of most strange theories which require of their readers often to have "blind faith". Eek. That's like asking someone to believe in a scientific study before the study's even done...

[SecretSeven]

Wow thanx for the great reply. I'm only eighteen, so I still have lots of time find my way spiritually, but I'm definitely going to keep looking. I think people are often too quick to suscribe to religions just because they grew up with a family who shared those peticular beliefs. Like you said, its always good to question, and find answers on your own instead of following other people's beliefs and opinions.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by SecretSeven

. I guess I just have trouble with that whole "blind faith" thing.

Same here. The only thing I have much faith in is that no matter how complicated my life seems at times, somehow it always turns out fine (although my definition of what is "fine" may have to change in the process). Whenever I'm in a situation that would stress most people out, I generally remain calm and know that somehow it will work out.

It's not blind faith though, as it's founded in every experience I've had thus far, in so many instances where it seems like I've hit a dead end, and suddenly things open up again, to possibilities I'd never considered before.

The water/ocean thing is just an on the fly analogy for what feels correct to me at the moment. It's not something I'd try to prove to anyone. I'm not even sure it could be proven as a human, nor does that particularly matter to me. There are no grand views of the world that I would fight for. No religions I'm apt to risk life/limb for. Just close friends.