When what's good for the goose isn't good for the guru

[JHL]

If there's one thing that never fails to give me an acute case of the screaming heebie jeebies, its when I see new age (or any) guru's engaging in unbridled commercialism. Wayne Dyer and Deepak Chopra have given us a lot of good material, to be sure, but boy have they milked the PD cash cow for all its worth (the 5 principles for this, the 7 steps to that, the 'other' 3.75 new ancient steps we didnt tell you about before, etc, etc).

Our man Steve is not exempt from the commercialism bug either, and judging by the response to a post in Steve's blog where he attempts to recruit people for a referall program - it irritates a lot of other people too.

How ironic then, that a huge amount of the very material that we love our guru's for, relates to how WE can get rich (usually quickly, easily and deservedly). So why the irritation when they practise what we love them to preach?

My theory is that it relates to the instant gratification zeitgeist of our times. We like to get satisfaction now, for giving nothing in return. Take the internet for example - we love it partly because get a lot, for nothing. So when someone turns around and says "Ok I want something back." we respond:"Come again?? You what?" And when that someone happens to be one of our 'spiritual gurus', we are doubly offended.

So to my fellow irritatees I ask you - why does it irritate us that Steve or Wayne Dyer or any other new age guru also want to make a buck out of PD?

Are we right to be irritated, or are we applying a double-standard?

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by JHL
So to my fellow irritatees I ask you - why does it irritate us that Steve or Wayne Dyer or any other new age guru also want to make a buck out of PD?

Are we right to be irritated, or are we applying a double-standard?

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - Shakespeare

Getting "irritated" is your decision... albeit an unconscious one... therefore, maybe you could see the situation as an opportunity for personal growth... rather then a petty source of annoyance...

However, I must say that I also get annoyed by some people sometimes... so, maybe I should take my own advice...

.

[JHL]

Originally Posted by Shamou

"[I]Getting "irritated" is your decision... albeit an unconscious one... therefore, maybe you could see the situation as an opportunity for personal growth... rather then a petty source of annoyance...
.

You raise a good point and I absolutely agree. I think I get irritated because I perceive Steve wanting what I want but subsconciously feel to be a bad thing. Hence I project all sorts of nasty things onto him that I am unable to own as my own desires (i.e. I also want to make a buck - see? I've done my PD homework!)

I was wondering if anyone had any other theories. Or at least confirm that it irritates them too, so I dont feel so alone sniff.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by JHL

You raise a good point and I absolutely agree. I think I get irritated because I perceive Steve wanting what I want but subsconciously feel to be a bad thing. Hence I project all sorts of nasty things onto him that I am unable to own as my own desires (i.e. I also want to make a buck - see? I've done my PD homework!)

Again... unwanted advice...

If you believe in any way that "making a buck" is a bad thing... you should work on that belief... otherwise... you'll just sabotage yourself when you start making money... who wants to do something the he or she considers to be unethical... immoral or fattening...???

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[Kerney]

The problem is that money illustrates the difference between the ideal and the actual.

Lets face it, connection with the divine is free. The best place to get it is in the wilderness. Enlightenment, seems to take a desire to give up those things that distract us. Look at some examples of historical "enlighted teachers" be they the Buddha, Francis of Assisi, Moses, Frank Fools Crow and many others all gave up attachment, were not materialistic, and in many cases gave up position and social prominence.

On the other hand,you have people like Wayne Dyer and Deepok Chopra peddleing enlightenment for just $19.99/month. In comparision, these people look like frauds and cheats and while they have some insights, I certainly don't see them encoraging people to live simply, honor the divine. Bluntly, it's hard not to be cynical about such people.

We live in a world where everything is for sale and there are a lot of things distracting us from the divine. A lot of it is in stupid books about Angels, spirit guides, gurus etc. It is, in a word, distraction and self indulgence dressed up in spiritual clothing. Pro Wrestling and Prostitution are the same thing. They are just not pretending to be spiritual. They are just marketed to a different audience.

All the Best,

Kerney

[Angela]

The folks whose writings I enjoy (Steve, the Hicks's, Wayne Dyer, Eckhart Tolle) are not "peddling enlightenment" or selling divinity. They don't offer to trade you nirvana for cash. What they offer in exchange for money is guidance. Each of them has a special talent for using words to illuminate the pathway in the direction I'm looking to travel. They have experimented or stumbled upon techniques or ways of thinking, then shared what they've learned in a way that I can pick and choose to see what resonates for me or inspires me. I feel there is real love and joy driving them to be my tour guides. Lighting my path, broadening my horizon, assisting me in seeing how I can best live my life -- why would that not be worth paying money for? Sure, I could limit my search to what I discover on my own without listening to what others have learned, but why? And, I don't necessarily even need to pay for it -- in fact, I'm heading for the library this morning.

I'm starting to see where trust and listening are two big life lessons that are jumping up into my life like puppies, hoping I'll pick them up and scratch their little bellies.

I also agree that if you're complaining about this (or anything), it's a perfect opportunity to see what it's mirroring inside yourself. Complaints are just little ripe blossoms of self-knowledge, clamoring to be heard amid all the noise.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Angela

The folks whose writings I enjoy (Steve, the Hicks's, Wayne Dyer, Eckhart Tolle) are not "peddling enlightenment" or selling divinity. They don't offer to trade you nirvana for cash. What they offer in exchange for money is guidance. Each of them has a special talent for using words to illuminate the pathway in the direction I'm looking to travel. They have experimented or stumbled upon techniques or ways of thinking, then shared what they've learned in a way that I can pick and choose to see what resonates for me or inspires me. I feel there is real love and joy driving them to be my tour guides. Lighting my path, broadening my horizon, assisting me in seeing how I can best live my life -- why would that not be worth paying money for? Sure, I could limit my search to what I discover on my own without listening to what others have learned, but why? And, I don't necessarily even need to pay for it -- in fact, I'm heading for the library this morning.

I'm starting to see where trust and listening are two big life lessons that are jumping up into my life like puppies, hoping I'll pick them up and scratch their little bellies.

I also agree that if you're complaining about this (or anything), it's a perfect opportunity to see what it's mirroring inside yourself. Complaints are just little ripe blossoms of self-knowledge, clamoring to be heard amid all the noise.

So true and so very well said...

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[wolfgang]

I'm not too annoyed by people selling their take of spiritual stuff. Heck, how else can I hear or read what the Dalai Lama is up to?

However I do get annoyed by people saying this is the one and only way that will work - if you don't get it you will be doomed. Any idea that says, if you don't get it you are doomed, is a trapping and not to be listened to and shouldn't be sold either. That's different than trying to get something for nothing. That's expecting that what I can buy is actually going to say something new or inspire me to be more alive or something.

I don't think Depak etc... are in it to only sell stuff - it probably came about after they noticed people liked how they tell what it is they figured out. They didn't sit around thinking, if I figure out some spiritual thing and write about it I can make some money. I think they figured out some thing or learned somethings and wanted to share or noticed peole wanted to hear about it. Some of the gurus may have started in such a way that people gave them money for some of their initial lectures because of the value in it, not because the author was looking for money.

[JHL]

Originally Posted by Angela

I also agree that if you're complaining about this (or anything), it's a perfect opportunity to see what it's mirroring inside yourself. Complaints are just little ripe blossoms of self-knowledge, clamoring to be heard amid all the noise.

Quite right, this is exactly why I started this thread - to gain some clarity over why it irritates me so much. So far I think its because I cannot freely accept and own the fact that I value money more than I believe I 'ideally should'. It indicates to me I have some issues surrounding money. Interesting because one of the reasons I struggled so long to find a 'meaningful' job was because I detested the thought of participating in a career that was just about the money because that wasnt a terribly 'spiritual' thing to do (I'm an idealist, ya see). However I'm beginning to think that I've been pulling the wool over my own eyes (to put it politely). I think maybe I do lust after after money and that some time ago I merely disowned the desire. Instead I get annoyed at Steve and other people who are freely give themselves permission to make money with cheer.

Its funny, I fathom that I must have some almost biblical belief in me that associates money with being a very bad thing. I think I've convinced myself that money is one-dimensional - its tainted, evil. And that by pursuing it I will become tainted and evil myself. I wonder where on earth I got that belief from...?

[JHL is off to ponder]

[Angela]

Hey, JHL, what do you believe is true about money? What did you decide about money when you were a little kid, and what incident had you make that decision?

I'll bet something happened, and you adopted a belief right then and there, maybe age 4 or 5?

[annie]

I understand where you're coming from.

I've had to deal with this very issue in my own way...coming from both sides.

But I just thought about why Steve doesn't bug me...it's because he offers stuff for free. (Great stuff on his blog etc.)

I think when I'm irritated most is when people dangle a carrot in front on your nose and then you find out it's $200 to find out the answer.

To remedy this myself...in a marketing class I learned that offering Free stuff is the way to go. Even the things I peddle....I share exactly what it is and if you want to try it without costing you a dime...knock your socks off.

If you want me to hold your hand and walk you through the process, well, be prepared to pay (it's my job!)

So that's just how my brain works....

[JHL]

Originally Posted by Angela

Hey, JHL, what do you believe is true about money? What did you decide about money when you were a little kid, and what incident had you make that decision?

I'll bet something happened, and you adopted a belief right then and there, maybe age 4 or 5?

Hi Angela, thats a good question. I've been thinking about it and I'm not sure yet. But I've set my mind to the task of dredging it up and hopefully I'll get more clarity about it. Intellectually I can think of all sorts of reasons why its an erroneous and disempowering belief. But on an intuitive, feeling level, something feels very wrong with it. In this case its very difficult to tell whether its my 'inner truth' speaking, or my ego playing games. I think I'll do a writing exercise about why I think pursuing money is bad, and see where it leads me. Thanks for responding to my conundrum

@ Annie

I think when I'm irritated most is when people dangle a carrot in front on your nose and then you find out it's $200 to find out the answer.

Sure, thats dishonesty.

To remedy this myself...in a marketing class I learned that offering Free stuff is the way to go.

Yeah, that works too and is fair enough. I think my irritation in a marketing sense is one of sincerity - marketers frequently present themselves as genuinely caring for their customers and this is THE product for YOU etc, but in fact what they REALLY care about is their own commercial success. Which is also fair enough. So its my perception of their insincerity that bugs the hell out of me. Which means I need to look at where I'm being insincere in my life.

Boy, PD is a minefield....grimace!

[Jaben]

What is money? Is it not a means of measuring exchange and regulating it such that those who produce value are rewarded for it? It is a medium that will be imbued with whatever energy that those who are using it are projecting. Consider all of the implications of where the money is flowing. For example 1/3 of any income made from a job will go to the government. And what will happen to the money that you spend? A large portion of it will go to the organization providing the product. What influence does this organization have on the world around them?

To work around any negative connotations with money I look at the desire behind it. I don't desire the money itself but rather I desire abundance. If I set my perspective correctly I'll see I really want to generate abundance for myself and the world around me.

Money may or may not be required to generate abundance. When you desire money and are looking at a way of generating it why not take a step back and look at the the reason behind it. That is you want to create abundance. Ask yourself if the way you are generating the money is most effectively generating the abundance you desire. I'm sure it can always be improved.

An additional theory I like is that the larger your circle of consideration of other's abundance, the greater the resources that will be available for the generation of your own abundance.

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by Angela

I also agree that if you're complaining about this (or anything), it's a perfect opportunity to see what it's mirroring inside yourself. Complaints are just little ripe blossoms of self-knowledge, clamoring to be heard amid all the noise.

While I agree with you about this Angela, I also believe that resolving a feeling of irritation doesn't mean that the irritant itself is necessarily innocent of all charges.

There are so many people in this PD biz peddling ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, repackaging and re-selling stuff we've all heard a million times. Or selling things to people who don't need it.

You don't need to spend $200 on some self-help program in order to be happy, and anyone who tries to convince you of that is a con man. There is no integrity in that--and my own irritation with people like Joe Vitale and his ilk indicates to me that I've encountered a scam artist, not that I am somehow wrong for feeling that, and need to look within and see the light.

Money is great--I would like more of it! But greed, corruption, and hustling emotionally needy people out of their money kinda suck. I am unapologetic about thinking that, e.g., Eckhardt Tolle really doesn't need to write a third book (and calendar and card set and poster and....) about The Now. (And he is not the worst of the lot, he at least has something useful to say.)

[JHL]

Originally Posted by Velvet

...resolving a feeling of irritation doesn't mean that the irritant itself is necessarily innocent of all charges.

Very true Velvet. You make some very good points. I think there's nothing wrong with pursuing 'abundance' so long as it isnt as someone else's expense and its done honestly. I think many people would be dissapointed to learn that their spiritual heroes pump out so many books - not because they have anything new to say, but rather because the contract they have with their publishers stipulates that they bloody well better find something to say in order to satisfy their quota of x amount of books.

In any event, as a friend of mine once sagely reminded me in a totally unrelated context - its not about them, its about you. And so instead of throwing stones at these people, I am attempting to mend myself instead. But, damn, its hard to improve on perfection

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Velvet

While I agree with you about this Angela, I also believe that resolving a feeling of irritation doesn't mean that the irritant itself is necessarily innocent of all charges.

There are so many people in this PD biz peddling ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, repackaging and re-selling stuff we've all heard a million times. Or selling things to people who don't need it.

You don't need to spend $200 on some self-help program in order to be happy, and anyone who tries to convince you of that is a con man. There is no integrity in that--and my own irritation with people like Joe Vitale and his ilk indicates to me that I've encountered a scam artist, not that I am somehow wrong for feeling that, and need to look within and see the light.

Money is great--I would like more of it! But greed, corruption, and hustling emotionally needy people out of their money kinda suck. I am unapologetic about thinking that, e.g., Eckhardt Tolle really doesn't need to write a third book (and calendar and card set and poster and....) about The Now. (And he is not the worst of the lot, he at least has something useful to say.)

Do you go to the Malls...??? Do you watch TV...??? read newspapers and magazines...???

Everybody is hustling for your money... it's called "free enterprise"... So, if it is OK for someone to hustle $200.00 sneakers... why would it not be OK for someone to sell informations for the same amount of money...???

People will pay $100.00 to go to a concert and that's OK... but paying the same amount to go to a seminar is not...

The fact that you may not want to spend money on PD... is your affair... but I find disturbing the fact that you find offensive the fact that other people may want to do it...

.

[Angela]

Velvet -- people are the way they are. Do you imagine that you are going to change deceitful people, or that Eckhart Tolle will not write another book because you think it's unnecessary? Are you lit up by your irritation by these people to do something about it? Or does your irritation take the sole shape of complaint? My question really is: what does the irritation do for you? How does it serve you?

That's what I think is valuable about seeing how your complaints about others are mirrors. Why are you irritated by this but not that? Why does one thing push your button but not mine? When you take the time to see what's yours, what you own about what's bugging you (and I'm not suggesting you are a scammer, by the way; it's often something much more difficult to see until you really look closely), the clarity that comes from that can lead you to inspired action. Complaining about something doesn't normally do a whole lot to transform it, but action inspired by self-awareness often does.

So, maybe looking at this complaint is a great path for JHL to examine his relationship with money, and maybe there's something in your irritation that contains the seed of self-awareness. Maybe your newfound knowledge will be something that inhibits greed & hucksterism out of personal development material, who knows? But judging and labeling the people who irritate you won't, I'm guessing, make too much difference to Eckhart Tolle or the people who are looking forward to his third book.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Angela
people are the way they are.

I like the way you think and the way you write... your public profile does not say much... so, could you tell us a little more about how you got your experience from (I was gonna say wisdom... but I don't want to be too much of a suck up... )

But, honest... it would be interesting to know...

.

[JHL]

Originally Posted by Shamou

The fact that you may not want to spend money on PD... is your affair... but I find disturbing the fact that you find offensive the fact that other people may want to do it....

Not that I want to speak on Velvets behalf (since I frequently speak quite poorly on my own behalf) but I think her point was that what irritates her is people who take advantage of needy people. Thats not on, wouldnt you agree? I dont think her point had anything to do with people spending money on PD per se.

But I stand corrected

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by JHL

Not that I want to speak on Velvets behalf (since I frequently speak quite poorly on my own behalf) but I think her point was that what irritates her is people who take advantage of needy people. Thats not on, wouldnt you agree? I dont think her point had anything to do with people spending money on PD per se.

But I stand corrected

Would you not agree that "needy people" are the one who need PD the most...???

Needy does not mean dumb... a fool and his money will soon part... but, at least by getting PD material... there is a chance of something good happening...

Hope this does not sound sarcastic... it was not meant to be... but, I do feel strongly about PD bashers of all kinds... to me, they are the Archie Bunker of the world... all emotions and no reflections...

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[Velvet]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Do you go to the Malls...???

No.

Originally Posted by Shamou

Do you watch TV...???

No.

Originally Posted by Shamou

read newspapers and magazines...???

Rarely.

Originally Posted by Shamou

Everybody is hustling for your money... it's called "free enterprise"...

I disagree. Everybody has something to sell, and some of it is of value, and some of it is not. It is up to me, the educated consumer, to tell the difference.

Originally Posted by Shamou

So, if it is OK for someone to hustle $200.00 sneakers... why would it not be OK for someone to sell informations for the same amount of money...???

I wouldn't buy $200 sneakers or concert tickets. But if I did spend money on a concert, it's for my own enjoyment, it's a unique event, etc. It's not the 600th rehashing of "7 Steps to Blah Blah Blah." Big, big difference.

Originally Posted by Shamou

People will pay $100.00 to go to a concert and that's OK... but paying the same amount to go to a seminar is not...

Originally Posted by Shamou

...but I find disturbing the fact that you find offensive the fact that other people may want to do it...

Shamou, I am not offended by the people who shell out the money. I am cautious of the people who want to take your money for something lame.

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by JHL

Not that I want to speak on Velvets behalf (since I frequently speak quite poorly on my own behalf) but I think her point was that what irritates her is people who take advantage of needy people. Thats not on, wouldnt you agree? I dont think her point had anything to do with people spending money on PD per se.

Yup, and furthermore, I was pointing out that being irritated by someone or something, and looking within to find the source of the irritation is a fine practice, but it doesn't mean the irritating person isn't somehow crossing a boundary.

I was basically defending JHL's right to call a spade a spade.

I have certain values, and it's useful for me to examine those and confirm them occasionally. And one of my values is that rampant consumerism and spiritual materialism are not the way I wanna play. So when I see someone playing that way, and it irritates me, it's a nice reminder: "Oh, yeah, I don't wanna play that way."

PD bashing? Not at all.

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Would you not agree that "needy people" are the one who need PD the most...??

No, I think needy people--and we've all been needy at one time or another--are the ones who most need to hear that they already have everything, they have the whole world. They're not broken and they don't need to be fixed.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Velvet

No, I think needy people--and we've all been needy at one time or another--are the ones who most need to hear that they already have everything, they have the whole world. They're not broken and they don't need to be fixed.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion... and I respect that...

May you have a long and happy life...

.