a few questions on the universe, god, religion...

[stroodle]

Everything that has happened in life up until now...only happened one way. Everything has been a giant progression moving forward. Life has grown into what we are experiencing right now, and it is continuously growing.

So when we talk about seeking the truth or enlightenment, isn’t that to say that there is some sort of baseline…and we’re just becoming more aware of it.

We are just the tail end (or front end rather), noticing the rest of the line. And maybe that’s what awareness is. And maybe that’s what religions call their truth...the beginning of the line. But isn’t any assumption we make (on life a.k.a. this line), not going to be as good as the one we make further down the line.

So anything that was theorized 2,000 years ago is clearly not going to be as mature of an observation as could be made today. Therefore the concepts of god and lots of other stuff in religions are all just immature ways of ‘life’ (us) becoming self aware. I think there is so much proof that as we evolve, we as a system become comparatively smarter.

I think it’s pretty obvious that life is a system. But we’re just one part of it. We’re not the be-all-end-all; we’re just PART of it. How can just part of a system understand the whole thing…for that to happen, we’d have to be the whole system. For example (and this a poor example, but you’ll get the point), does a cell in an organ such as your kidney understand the rest of your body? No, it just knows it’s a kidney and to do its kidney functions. So if humans are all just cells in the ‘organ’ of humanity in the ‘body’ of life, why do we assume we can understand life. Shouldn’t we just acknowledge that there is more out there, but we obviously don’t understand it yet? At least not completely. And definitely not as completely as some people (religions) tend to assume.


SO, isn't it obvious that our thinking today will never be as clear as it will be in the distant future.

[ethereal]

Not necessarily. We were pretty close to bombing all of humanity off the face of the planet, a few decades ago.

But in general, yeah. It's more like, there are levels of consciousness, and the higher up you go the more you understand. Each individual human being is a representative of human consciousness, and thus has the potential to embody all of that consciousness.

On the societal level, yes it's a slow crawl, but on the individual level, it's possible to become enlightened and understand all of Truth (as is possible in this physical domain).

[stroodle]

you know how i know this 'concept of god' that so many of you have is false

just turn on the news. unbelievable. i am of course referring to this university massacre of 22 students, now maybe more. how could your so called 'all loving' being from above allow tragedies like this to happen. (let alone any violence, hatred, killing)

i can't accept that.

otherwise life is just one big experiment. one big test or game. and if that's the case, well what's the incentive to want to play. this idea of heaven/hell? come on.


i know that stuff like this happens all over the world all the time. but we become sheltered and blind to it a lot of the time. only when these random acts occur are we reminded of how cruel life can be.

[Akashic_Librarian]

So if humans are all just cells in the ‘organ’ of humanity in the ‘body’ of life, why do we assume we can understand life. Shouldn’t we just acknowledge that there is more out there, but we obviously don’t understand it yet? At least not completely. And definitely not as completely as some people (religions) tend to assume.

You can believe that if you want. OR you can stop giving yourself excuses. Truth. The REAL Truth is hard to understand yeah. But its possible. It is. I know you might not understand...but by accepting defeat you are one step towards victory.

[annie]

Sooooo...where was the question and what was it????

Ahhh. I think you meant "A few COMMENTS on the universe, god and religion"

So how big of a part in this "system" would you say mankind is? I

You said:
So if humans are all just cells in the ‘organ’ of humanity in the ‘body’ of life, why do we assume we can understand life.

So let me take the liberty of actually turning this thread into a question.

Can man ultimately discover truth? In this lifetime? Is there an "absolute truth?"

Why are we here? What is mankinds purpose? Where are we headed?

Now those are some questions that I think fit under this topic!

[Nicholls]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

I know you might not understand...but by accepting defeat you are one step towards victory.

No. By accepting defeat you have lost. By not accepting defeat you are on step towards victory.

[stroodle]

Originally Posted by annie

Sooooo...where was the question and what was it????

Ahhh. I think you meant "A few COMMENTS on the universe, god and religion"

So how big of a part in this "system" would you say mankind is? I

You said:
So if humans are all just cells in the ‘organ’ of humanity in the ‘body’ of life, why do we assume we can understand life.

So let me take the liberty of actually turning this thread into a question.

Can man ultimately discover truth? In this lifetime? Is there an "absolute truth?"

Why are we here? What is mankinds purpose? Where are we headed?

Now those are some questions that I think fit under this topic!

ya i know the thread title is off...i pressed submit before i finished my post and tried deleting the thread, that didn't work, and i dont think i can change the title


i recognize that i'm asking the most basic of all questions, i.e. 'why are we here, what is our purpose, etc.'

but im also wondering, are we even asking the right questions? is there a right question? everything that we ask, that we conceive is all in our heads. to assume you have the answer, is to assume your understanding is matched with some supposed truth.

but maybe this act of QUESTIONING is just something that LIFE does (through humans). but that's not to say the answers we come up with are a TRUTH. These answers are just what LIFE tells itself to keep moving forward. Like words of encouragement almost.

[annie]

What other questions are there?

I like these questions also: What can I learn from this? How can I leave my mark on this world?

We may never know the answers to our questions with assurity...but I say...Keeping asking GOOD questions.

I believe in something called the Light of Christ.....another word for it is your conscience. It's something inside you that let's you know if you're on track. I believe people honestly have an inkling about what the next step is. But in order to progess and keep moving forward (like you put it) you need to keep asking GOOD questions.

[Erock]

Originally Posted by stroodle

How can just part of a system understand the whole thing…for that to happen, we’d have to be the whole system.

Precisely. You are the whole system.

[Jenny]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

I know you might not understand...but by accepting defeat you are one step towards victory.

I believe you are on to something here. I don't believe one should wallow in defeat but the experience of utter defeat allows a strange sense of freedom. It's as if you now know the worst and can just move forward from that point on without all of the self-consciousness and fear that were tied to your growth before.

[stroodle]

Originally Posted by Jenny

I believe you are on to something here. I don't believe one should wallow in defeat but the experience of utter defeat allows a strange sense of freedom. It's as if you now know the worst and can just move forward from that point on without all of the self-consciousness and fear that were tied to your growth before.

oh i definately agree

i think i have reached that point of 'accepting defeat'....where i see the world in a much much much different way. its a point of understanding and awareness that just knocks you off your feet.

but that's why i think anywhere i go from there, is all in the mind...and any way we try to explain it just dilutes its meaning. that feeling of awareness is feeling 'god' if you want to call it that. but i dont mean a higher being looking down on us. i just mean OUR higher being. i think we are god....just an extension of it.

the thing about religion that bothers me is this separation between mankind and god. i.e. there is a creator and we are its creation. i don't buy that.

because as i mentioned above....that takes away any purpose in life. not just as a person, but for LIFE in general. why would Life want to survive if it is just a creation. why do we do anything then? why are there things to discover?

im goin on a rant, and losing my train of thought, and just dodging studying for my exam tomorrow, hehe, but please share your thoughts.

[Dragon]

Originally Posted by stroodle

you know how i know this 'concept of god' that so many of you have is false

just turn on the news. unbelievable. i am of course referring to this university massacre of 22 students, now maybe more. how could your so called 'all loving' being from above allow tragedies like this to happen. (let alone any violence, hatred, killing)

i can't accept that.

otherwise life is just one big experiment. one big test or game. and if that's the case, well what's the incentive to want to play. this idea of heaven/hell? come on.


i know that stuff like this happens all over the world all the time. but we become sheltered and blind to it a lot of the time. only when these random acts occur are we reminded of how cruel life can be.

That Is an age old question, but I tend to think that It's a little easier to answer than some may think.

God did not create evil. See, we sometimes ask "how did evil get created?", but we must understand, that evil isn't actually a creation at all, it's a digretion. If evil had it's totally, if evil had accomplished everything it ever wanted, the common consensious is that everone would be in pain, suffering, and will be miserable for ever. This is the furthest thing from the truth.

If evil had it's way totally, there would be no pain, no suffering, just, everything would be gone. Cease to exist. All evil is, is the rejection of good. We can call it whatever we want, we can call it beneficial vs nonbeneficial, or good vs evil. Good happens first, then evil happens second, good is the creator, and evil is the destruction of that creation. Evil is not a force by itself, its a digretion of the force, good.

Now, this may sound a little "out there", but most people today have a hard time understanding what godd actually is. You can see it in the way people act, and the reasons why peole act the way they do, and I'm not talking about the bad things of the world, I'm talking about the good things, people are good, they just don't understand what good actually is. Being good is simply doing something because it's good, that's it. I don't know anyone that does this. We justify good by doing things if there's an overall benifit to it, a reason. True good has no reason, and has no cause. Being good, in it's truest form, is not something that is controlled, if it is, it isn't good at all, in any way. So in other words, to be good, you have to choose to be good, especially when evil is looking you straight in the eye, because then you become an even better form of good, allowing your "good" to grow, which is the best case senerio, which most people don't understand. "Isn't good enough?" some will ask, "yes" would be the answer, but isn't being better with no reason, no benefit other than being better, good?

The ancient greek, and well before that hebrew, (and before that tounges) term for God is "the ultimate good" and "The ultimate force that is good". God want's to, and continually will create the ULTIMATE good, in It's purest form possible, not just good. Guess what happens when this is rejected? Right, some pretty bad things. Evil is created by us. Sin is not a "to do list", it is a desease that spreads from something extremely small and grows to monsterous proportions in every way, and all sins support total nonexistance in some way, weather extremely small or extremely huge. So after the first sin "a rejection of the creative force" the world is destined to be gone, it's already done, even if to us, in our limited sense of time, seems like an extremely slow process.

God now has two choices, he can just stop the bad people and things from doing what the're going to do and leave the good ones, or he can just end the world now as we know it. Guess what? It's the same thing. We are all those people, in one way or another, the cycle continues over and over again untill only a few of us are the ones who actually commit the final act. So does God really only have one choice? No. He has another, an ultimately good one. He can let the digresion exist, as long as a progression exists at the same time, feeding off of the digresion continuously, making the progression stronger. Which is what's happening, and why evil and pain exists, whim I'm all for. I've suffered many losses in my life, and know truely more than most just how unfair life can be, so I'm not being biased.

Let's talk about pain though. How bad is it really? I mean, there are people who think they know what real pain is, they don't. Pain, is necessary, real pain is no pain at all. That's right, I said It, and I'll say it as many times as I have to. There are three children in this world who don't feel pain, any at all. they can feel everything else, they can be tickled, they laugh, they have fun, they feel everything, just not pain, physically or emotionally. They are two brothers and a sister.

These kids are lucky to be alive. They don't know right from wrong, and if they aren't watched 24/7, they never will. Pain lets you know when something bad is happening to you, it lets you know how good you are. One of these kis sat on a radiator, untill it was burning his bottom and leg, and blood was flowing everywhere. The kids thought, "gee, how fun" and started burning each other, lighting each other on fire, untill the parents came running into the room to stop it. The sister once got hungry and ate two of her fingers. This is life without pain. It's not a bad thing, It's a good thing, just miserable to go through for the temporary time that it lasts. Worth it or not? When something hurts, you're not going to do it.

God dosen't stop the digression for a reason, the world has already been stopped anyway in God's timeline. Stopping the digression imediately will stop the greater progression he has set forth. Although stopping the digression would be a good thing, creating a greater progression from the digression would be an even better thing, which is his ultimate purpose. God uses evil to create a greater good, evil is just the rejection of his cause, which he then uses to cause an even greater good. This is needed, this seperation, this dualty, is the best way. Withought right and wrong, you wouldn't know right from wrong. when you choose to be right, it's better than right in of itself, because the right, the good, has now been strengthened for a freater future purpose, weather a long time from now, or tomarrow.

Jesus and the cross has a lot to do with this as well, but that's another topic for another time. It's meant to be understood spiritually, not intellectually. being strictly intellectual is ine of the biggest mistakes I ever made earlier in my life. The greatest reality is in which you cannot see.


The only real question I would have for God right now, is weather or not the end was created in the beginning.

[stroodle]

great post Dragon

that makes plenty of sense. and i realize that when ask such general questions sometimes, that it's easy to be dumbfounded. i think most of the world just has diluted thinking. most act out positively, but still with an unclear reason why. when they do ask why, they come out in questions like i've asked. which can only be answered by generalized answers (usually in the form of religion).

[negate7o4]

Originally Posted by Dragon

Let's talk about pain though. How bad is it really? I mean, there are people who think they know what real pain is, they don't. Pain, is necessary, real pain is no pain at all. That's right, I said It, and I'll say it as many times as I have to. There are three children in this world who don't feel pain, any at all. they can feel everything else, they can be tickled, they laugh, they have fun, they feel everything, just not pain, physically or emotionally. They are two brothers and a sister.

These kids are lucky to be alive. They don't know right from wrong, and if they aren't watched 24/7, they never will. Pain lets you know when something bad is happening to you, it lets you know how good you are. One of these kis sat on a radiator, untill it was burning his bottom and leg, and blood was flowing everywhere. The kids thought, "gee, how fun" and started burning each other, lighting each other on fire, untill the parents came running into the room to stop it. The sister once got hungry and ate two of her fingers. This is life without pain. It's not a bad thing, It's a good thing, just miserable to go through for the temporary time that it lasts. Worth it or not? When something hurts, you're not going to do it.

For your information there are thousands of people who dont feel pain. its a rare disease called CIPA! and pain is a defence meganism of the brain to let you know your life is in danger it is what called survival! when you put your hand on hot plait something automatics goes of in your brain and with not even thinking of it you will remove your had. Its the survival instink of your brain.

And for your assesment that people with Congenital Insensitivity to Pain with Anhidrosis (CIPA) disease does not know right from wrong i would see as a insult to many. Just because they dont feel physically doesnt mean they dont feel emotionaly my friend

[Dragon]

Originally Posted by negate7o4

For your information there are thousands of people who dont feel pain. its a rare disease called CIPA! and pain is a defence meganism of the brain to let you know your life is in danger it is what called survival! when you put your hand on hot plait something automatics goes of in your brain and with not even thinking of it you will remove your had. Its the survival instink of your brain.

And for your assesment that people with Congenital Insensitivity to Pain with Anhidrosis (CIPA) disease does not know right from wrong i would see as a insult to many. Just because they dont feel physically doesnt mean they dont feel emotionaly my friend

You're absolutely right about CIPA. I wasn't talking about that though, I was talking about those three children specifically,not the desease in general, as an example of what happens to people's lives when the things that we wish we had actually goes amuck 100%, which wont happen, what the end cause would be. Of course it is highly unlikely, as we'd learn. Yes, I know alot about the condition of CIPA and others that cause similarities, but I wasn't using the example of CIPA as a cause/effect type relationship into the lives of people, I was in fact doing the opposite, using those three children as examples of how they would live naturally, just as we would. The emotional pain thing, is a different issue entirely, but it also applied to those 3 children, not because of the CIPA, which is why I thought they were great examples. It's similar to a gang member who had to live that life for a long time and is no longer able to cry tears anymore,or so he thinks. When something great happens, those tears will flow, he knows that it was good. I wasn't trying to insult anyone, and I'm not one for generalized statements.

I didn't want what I said to get misundertsood. I wasn't saying that CIPA causes these effects in people's lives, heck no, I was talking about their lives, and the role that CIPA plays in it individually to make my point. Those kids surely don't live like that anymore. When I was a kid, I didn't know right from wrong, and I never had CIPA. I would have died because I didn't know right from wrong, not because I had CIPA. I just didn't wan't anyone to misunderstand what I was trying to say, or offend anyone.

[negate7o4]

I understand. Sorry for taking it out of context then. Cipa is a really awful disease. But hopefully one day with technolegy its a disease that will be cured

[Dragon]

Originally Posted by negate7o4

I understand. Sorry for taking it out of context then. Cipa is a really awful disease. But hopefully one day with technolegy its a disease that will be cured

Believe it or not, (I'm not really sure on this) but I remember some where that Scientists said that they already were well on their way. It's a good thing, and you're right, It's an awfull desease. Imagine the shock these people will go through though, I imagine it would take years of mental therapy for these individuals to overcome being used to live life without pain, and then to feel it for the first time. I'm starting to think that the best way would be to just teach these people how to live rightfully and as safely as possible with the desease.