False Enlightenment Teachers

[LoveWisdom]

..................

[Lychee]

I don't know how you can quantify enlightenment. Dr. Hawkins is a doctor, and professionals in this area usually like to quantify things because they find it easier to understand subjects this way. I don't think that the scale is set in stone thought it might give a general idea. I think it's just better to do what you think and not rely on someone else's idea of what they think something should be.

[ZHereford]

Anyone who insists they are enlightened can't be.

Even Socrates who was one of the wisest philosophers in history claimed he really new nothing.

It's when you start to learn and study that you realize how little you really know.

My advice is that you learn, read and study everything you can and then draw your own conclusions based on what you find to be true.

There have been many enlightened teachers throughout history who have stood the test of time e.g. Confucius, Jesus, Mohamed, Buddha and deserved to be called enlightened. Read what they have said and taught before you listen to someone who can't decide from one moment to the next what enlightenment is.

[JerryS]

It's when you start to learn and study that you realize how little you really know.

My advice is that you learn, read and study everything you can and then draw your own conclusions based on what you find to be true.

Great point. I agree. Utilize your critical thinking skills.

[Simmiah]

I don't want to trod on your experience as it seems it was a negative one for you & I can understand why at that!

But as you phrased it it seems your "teacher" told you she was enlightened herself. Hmm. It is interesting because your posting is like the second one of its kind. I myself had a negative encounter with well..let's just put it was similar.

& anyways! When you put all your faith & eggs in one basket or one "teacher" & it turns out to be a basket of worms it is very shocking & can shake one's faith to the core.

I don't know how you're feeling about Hawkins but he's mentioned almost exactly what you wrote to a T in the book I am reading of his right now ("I"). He talks about people who go back & forth & waver a lot & then claim there is no god & only they are responsible for things. & then he talks about spiritual teachers who originally calibrated maybe as high as 500's falling because they fell prey to wanting more followers or wanting to have sex with their followers. So be careful & watch out for yourself. I've recently learned myself that being naive is not being wise. There are people out there who are capable of great harm. But honestly I doubt this yoga instructor was in the 600's because if she was she probably wouldn't even have been bothering to teach anyone.

BTW, I'll note because yours is not the only posting about this. There was recently another talking about the downfall of yoga & it was also very disillusioned. I can empathize. I was almost one step away from losing faith in everything due to the experiences I encountered.

& here's my personal opinion from personal experience. I've met a LOT of people who think they are spiritual. They claim they are the BEST & they claim they KNOW EVERYTHING. I bolded what they said because this is what they had in common. They had a lot of pride. They were arrogant & thought that they were responsible for their own experiences & any spiritual experiences were according to them, because of them only. They did not recognize God or any higher source of power as the source of these experiences. I recently met one here in my town who tried to lie & deceive me. He also was out to accost me sexually. I picked this up immediately & had a premonition type dream warning me. I stopped talking to him immediately. Here are some of the memorable quotes I remember from talking to this person one time: "I like to take people down to the lake & open up their chakras so they can see the sunrise." (open up chakras? That sounds very manipulative...maybe you can sense the intention I sensed from my quote) This guy also claimed he really liked the Dalai Lama & actually was very critical of anyone who liked or respected regular people (for example I respect Drew Barrymore for being strong & overcoming her childhood. she was my role model for a very long time).

To be honest, anyone who says to me "I am enlightened" I am automatically on guard. I've met a person who claimed they could warp time (& maybe they can) or levitate or do random things.. these types of people claim they are GOD which freake me out. Eek! I am sorry you are disillusioned. & yes I went through what you are going through now. OMG. It is also why I am right now currently alone on my path. I know a few people I would say are on the path with me but I no longer participate in anything with others in my regular life. I just feel God..read books.. & keep praying. Heh. Hope this helps!

Here's what I learned. Just because a person says 20% false things doens't mean the other 80% should be completely thrown out. Just because I've associated God with someone who is obviously very unGodly (judgmental...etc...) doesn't mean I throw out God. Be careful of becoming completely disillusioned & losing faith. I am seeing that in your posting. It seems you had much invested in this teacher & others & are very hurt. I hope you may heal in time.

[Simmiah]

Love I doubt very much you caused your teacher to fall. It was their choice all along to choose. & there are many temptations. I never liked the word "sin" much when used in the Bible but I realized there really are temptations out there.. power..money..can lead to greed & desire.

Oh I found a good list talking about false gurus. It may be helpful reference for anyone choosing a teacher. & I know what you mean about trust.. I've lost trust just in general with people in my life & it was devastating. I would fluctuate in confusion & go back & forth on what to do & then I would blame myself for being so "stupid" in believing their lies. Not helpful. Don't blame yourself or feel guilty but I know its easier said than done. & haha I'm not perfect so I can say I still feel confused from time to time.

Here's the list for everyone.
The False Guru Test

& yep everything else might not be true but I believe God reveals all in due time.

[ZHereford]

Simmiah, that false guru test was great.

Lovewisdom I recommend that you read each point because it's right on!

[TheColonel]

Are you sure critical thinking is the path to enlightenment?

I was under the impression that enlightenment follows the erosion of ego.

Critical thinking is a function of ego.

[ZHereford]

It depends on how you define enlightenment. There are western-based definitions and eastern-based definitions.

In the 18 hundreds "The Age of Reason" was considered enlightenment by many philosophers.

In eastern tradition enlightenment has more of an esoteric or "awakening" type of definition.

I lean more towards the tradition of philosophy.

[Simmiah]

I've known Christians who weren't 'Christian' persay in their values & did not understand or follow the teachings of Jesus & follow Godly values in their lives but I did not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It seems you are very afraid & I can understand if you choose to not read Hawkins after this as I probably would choose the same. There are many great teachers out there. I'd suggest study directly from the teacher & not their followers. Hawkins gives free talks near his home in Sedona, AZ at a learning center out there so I don't think he follows money especially as much of his teachings are posted for free on various parts of the internet & I've also got access to a free website where I can listen to his radio talks for free. So.. heh.. there's an opposing argument persay but I'd really rather not argue about something like this.

I've got stories I could tell about followers who think they are God after a few sessions (seriously!). For example, I respect Reiki as I was raised learning Qi Qong which is very similar BUT, there are several Reiki practicioners I've known who were using it to manipulate others & manipulate their energy fields. Is this spiritual? Nope. However I believe Reiki, if you use it with a pure intention, it will become that intention. Your results will reflect your attitude. I am sorry once again you met with some obviously below 200 teachers. In the future, run any teacher you know by that list.

[Gary]

You can’t measure a person by what they say. Observe what they do and how they treat people. The same is true for a spiritual teacher. There are devious frauds, there are well intentioned frauds, and then there is the real thing.

The only way to measure is over time and careful observation. When you find something that you consider “wrong” you must take special scrutiny that it is not your judgment of them that is the poison. Spiritual teachers don’t follow all the conventional rules of society, or all the rules of what a spiritual teacher is supposed to be. They aren’t all vegetarians.

PS. It might also help if people dropped the word enlightened. It’s an abstract label that most people don’t have an understanding of and therefore can only add to distortion and confusion. Chasing people with labels will lead to disillusionment. Disillusionment can help on your journey, but might also cause you to give up along the way also.

Instead find a teacher that lives in a way of love, happiness, compassion, and freedom from fear and judgment that you want and has taught others how to live in that way also.

It is better to have a teacher that says, "I love you." than one who asks you to love them.
It is better to have a teacher that says, "You are God" than have a teacher that says they are God.

[Simmiah]

Originally Posted by LoveWisdom

Thanks Everyone,

I'm not saying these false teachers don't help people sometimes. Jimmy Swaggart helped thousands.

Just look at all the good that came from Charles Manson! Wasn't he a blessing in the end? Printing jobs, investigation jobs, psychological studies, books just on and on. No telling how many people he has helped though studies done on him alone. So thank The Good Lord for Charlie!

eod

ooh. Sorry if I was wrong !

& yep thank god for Charlie. It seems that all bad things aren't so bad at the end of the day anyways.

[DaveTyler]

So your saying you don't believe in spirituality?
Don't believe in karma? don't believe in reincarnation etc.?

[DaveTyler]

I'm not saying Hawkin's material is true, I haven't read it.
So you don't believe in enlightenment, we're all one etc.? we all have souls, etc?
YOu believe ur a fleshrobot?
Spiritual is not a ego trip if you truely believe we're all one and worth the same.
It's about wanting to help people

[DaveTyler]

No what I meant with "nonspiritual" was more people who hasn't RECOGNIZED their spiritual side, EVERYONE is a spirit, all life has spirit.
So you believe in soul etc?

[DaveTyler]

I think you've had a bad experience with lying teachers, and that can be very sad.
I think if you read more into buddhism etc. you see it's all good really
There's a lot of "proof" of spirituality, not religion, but spiritual in the sense what is is what is, truth is truth.
Ego make's beliefs, just your ego
But if your feeling good as you live now, that's what's most important

[Groundless]

Gary said:

You can’t measure a person by what they say. Observe what they do and how they treat people. The same is true for a spiritual teacher. There are devious frauds, there are well intentioned frauds, and then there is the real thing.

true!

LoveWisdome said:

Helping people implies there is something "wrong" with them.

And from what I see we are all perfect the way we are. I agree with your sentiment here.
I am.

I don't really know about Enlightenment 100%.

Me either. I only know what I have experienced so far.

Yes, the way you descibe "spiritual" seems correct to me. We are all equal. We are all spiritual too. Not "I'm" spiritual, or "how to deal with unspiritual people." Everyone is beautiful, adorable. Not a number 202.

What's your name? "202."

What if your experiences were your experiences and exactly unfolding the way it is meant to be unfolding for you? It is perfect if someone swindles you. You seem pretty agitated being labeled a number....why?

I don't KNOW if we have a soul.

I KNOW everything "I" do is perfect.

I KNOW Truth cannot be spoken.

I really REALLY believe their is some kind of being protecting me. I hope.

It really seems I'm opperating in some kind of reality with a body and an ego. An Ego-Form.

The rest is just beliefs.

And yet, really none of what we think we know can be proven. It could all be one stupid hallucination. The only thing I continue to do is dig deeper into things is when I focus on "I am" Everyhting else is meaningless.

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by LoveWisdom

Dave Tyler,

I believe "spiritually" is nothing about being spiritual. "Spiritual" is an ego trip. I'm spiritual and your not...stuff like that. It a form of specialness.

Karma, I don't know but I have absolutely nothing so far to make me believe it's true.

According to Hawkins Jesus came directly from heaven, seems he wouldn't have had any karma to deal with. But he apparently when through much. I would like understanding on these matters. But I do not have a reason to believe it at this time.

*************
I know your intentions are/were good!

That is NOT what spirituality is about at all.

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by LoveWisdom

Dear DoAnyOfYouExsit,

Really? Well, give me the answer.

Spiritual" is an ego trip. I'm spiritual and your not...stuff like that. It a form of specialness.

I do not think like this and I cannot give you any answer you cannot give yourself.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

It depends on how you define enlightenment. There are western-based definitions and eastern-based definitions.

In the 18 hundreds "The Age of Reason" was considered enlightenment by many philosophers.

In eastern tradition enlightenment has more of an esoteric or "awakening" type of definition.

I lean more towards the tradition of philosophy.

Near as I can tell, there isn't a difference between those descriptions.

[Simmiah]

Originally Posted by LoveWisdom

Simmiah,

Calibration is a LIE straight from the pits of hell!

This puts into question everything this man says.

If you mean by "wrong" about what you said about Hawkins. I wouldn't call it "wrong" but you are not looking at it correctly. What reason would anyone wish to study with a lire? He says the end does not justify the means. This is double talk.

I use to think this one person was real but she is a fake too. She believes it's her job to get people up to the so-called 400s. Even if the 400s were true who would wish to get there!? That would be a dry bones place to be!

What this comes down to is Eastern and Western "spiritually." It appears the Easterns are liars. Most of the ones I know who believe this stuff are sick, heart trouble, cancer, etc. Cancer is known from recent studies to be related to duplicity, i.e. lieing, etc. Just look at Hawkins! Believe all this stuff were he healed so and so, and his eyes got better...bull! More lies. This brings into question everything he says, everything written in his books. It appears it will help people by giving them a spoon fed secure belief system. That is fine and good for most people as is what they like. It makes them feel happy. Also, it is well known the dark forces can make you "feel" good. Reincarnation...baloney. Karma...baloney.

I didn't mean I was wrong regarding that. I mean I was wrong perhaps regarding you. Anyways it wasn't my position to have an opinion on your stance & share it. That's what I meant.

Umm. I humbly say that I still believe much of Hawkins writings are true & btw, I was Buddhist first & studied Buddhism fervently for many years. The heart sutra actually is very wise & I now read the Bhagavad Gita so.....

Before I say anymore I humbly retreat.

[Anagogy]

From Carry On My Wayward Son, by Kansas:

"And if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know..."

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Near as I can tell, there isn't a difference between those descriptions.

Regarding western vs. eastern "enlightenment". I was responding to TheColonel who said that critical thinking is ego-related and enlightenment is letting go of ego.

Western philosophical tradition is based on critical thinking and reason, whereas eastern philosophy is more about letting go of ego and focuses more on meditation, yoga etc.

I guess I should have elaborated more.

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

LoveWisdom you are a very odd person. Can't say I understand much of what you say. Your ego is too much in charge for me to get any meaning out of what you say.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

Regarding western vs. eastern "enlightenment". I was responding to TheColonel who said that critical thinking is ego-related and enlightenment is letting go of ego.

Western philosophical tradition is based on critical thinking and reason, whereas eastern philosophy is more about letting go of ego and focuses more on meditation, yoga etc.

Perhaps. I think of it more cyclically: in prehistoric times, there was a focus on the release of ego. As history came to the fore, there was an increasing focus on magnifying the go. As we globalize, there is a revolution back towards releasing the ego.

I would compare it to academic disciplines. When universities were started, the term "faculty" referred to the faculty of the mind to contemplate higher thought. As time went on, a kind of "siloing" occurred, separating thought into isolated fields. In the past fifty years or so, however, there's been a growing movement towards interdisciplinary thought.

The same kind of cycles seem to appear in industry as well, though much faster.

[Takuin Minamoto]

Has anyone else run into false teachers out there?

Boy, I've had my share! It's so disheartening.

I can relate to that. But a few years ago I decided to do without them all. Just question myself, inquire within, etc.

I used to get mad at them all (those kind of teachers), but in the end I realized that it wasn't their fault. I was the one that put all of my hope in them, and I was the one that wanted to be saved so much, that I would believe anything that was told to me. If I didn't have the desire to be free in the first place, I would not have put myself in that despair.

I had a teacher once who said she was Enlightened calibrated at 650 loc. I studied with her for months. And the thing about it I had an experience then I trusted her more than ever. She then told me she "fall in Love" with me. She was a very pretty Yoga teacher. As you may guess my teaching went to new levels! Then she said she wasn't Enlightened, then she said she was. I left. Months later she e-mails me and says she was Enlightened! A few weeks ago I called her and she said she no longer believed in Enlightenment.

RUN AWAY!! Isn't it crazy that someone can tell you that they have something you need? That they can set you free? What is even crazier? We believe them. Haha.

As much as we feel we need those teachers, they need us even more. What would they be without us? As much as we think we need to be freed, they think they need to give it to us. Is there a difference there? I don't see it.

Just follow the advice we get at the zoo; DON'T FEED THE ANIMALS!

Hawkins calibrations turns out a lie. Actually I believe it must be OK to lie. Who knows?

I have been hearing about this Dr. Hawkins person on this forum. Who is he/she? You can calibrate something or someone? Could someone post a link to that info or send me a P.M. about it please? I'd like to see what is going on there.

[Groundless]

D. Hawkins -- Power vs. Force

[Groundless]

Hawkins is suppose to be the worlds foremost teacher of enlightenment. He's the top dog! Be careful fooling with him...he's got your number! ha! ha! He can calibrated the last time you farted. joking.

His book "I" calibrates as the highest truth on this earth plane. Any higher and it would disappear into another dimension. It's wrote for enlightened people, who are not happy with there level of enlightenment.

This post of yours made me laugh quite a bit -- I thank you for that.

[Lychee]

I do agree with LoveWisdom when she says reincarnation and karma (cycles of good and negative energy from past lifetimes) is false.

The whole premise of quantifying enlightenment does not make sense. Who sets the standard for enlightenment? Why should any human being do so? What is it based on? It is based mostly on Eastern philosophy. The only reason the LoC scale was created was because it was convenient for it to be made; it gave a visual on where a person stood in life. But if you follow that scale, are you going to try to categorize people on LoC of "X" which some people have been doing? No one knows where someone stands in terms of progress - we do not know where we stand either. The unknown should be respected.

The calibration based on Hawkins teachings states that since the body is connected to God, our bodies know what is best for us when we ask it a question. Our minds are connected to God too, yet people make errors. A person's body is a reflection of the person's mind. If the mind is on the right path, the body will probably be as well. But if the mind is not balanced and correct, how do you know the body will be too? Tests supporting the idea of AK is inevitably presented by Hawkins, but what about tests which disprove AK? Quantum physics dictates that our intentions/focus/expectations influence the outcome. Is it possible that our wanting AK to work actually affects the outcome of the AK test itself to make a false positive? Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. But is it infallible?

[Lallymac]

I'm curious about Hawkins AK testing. What does it calibrate?Is it supposed to be able to calibrate degrees of enlightenment. I find that quite amusing.
Lallymac