Subjective Reality? And Steve bending reality to fit the LOA

[Toulon]

Currently you're manifesting a reality congruent with your beliefs

Where did they come from? Why are my beliefs that I am in an objective reality? Why do I not believe this INSTANT that I am in a subjective reality?

Forgetting time based origins


Why this second do I believe in objective reality?
Where did it come from? This belief?
Not when but WHERE? If there was never any objective reality, where did the beliefs that I have right now come from? From what experiance?

What led me to the conclusions I have now?

It cant be some experiance in SR because if it originated in SR my beliefs would be solidly SR, I would never have imposed the limiting belief of OR

[Toulon]

btw whats with all the attacks?

everyone attacks, im scared of death, im scared of insanity, im unopen to illogical conclusions, i have a "logic" mind


Whos really afraid ?

The ones who resort to attacks or the one who doesn't????

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Toulon

btw whats with all the attacks?

everyone attacks, im scared of death, im scared of insanity, im unopen to illogical conclusions, i have a "logic" mind


Whos really afraid ?

The ones who resort to attacks or the one who doesn't????

You are free to believe anything including that we are attacking you. That is your subjective response to what is going on right now. I personally don't like to beat around the bush and I would rather use a direct approach than have 10 million back and forth responses. I used to go about my life in exactly the same manner you are describing. Needing to have solid proof of everything without loopholes to integrate it into my life. Strutting around thinking I had the world figured out until I came to the realization that logic is about 10% of understanding what is really going on.

[Toulon]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

You are free to believe anything including that we are attacking you. That is your subjective response to what is going on right now. I personally don't like to beat around the bush and I would rather use a direct approach than have 10 million back and forth responses. I used to go about my life in exactly the same manner you are describing. Needing to have solid proof of everything without loopholes to integrate it into my life. Strutting around thinking I had the world figured out until I came to the realization that logic is about 10% of understanding what is really going on.

Your desperate search for full proof view of reality is in my opinion your logic run mind in its last death throws desperately searching for something to cling onto.

You could unbelieve them, but you're unwilling to do so. You fear the consequences such as insanity and death.

These are insinuation attacks, you guys are saying I'm scared and desperate.

Who's really scared and desperate? In an arguement its usually the one resorts to such methods like attacks.

You guys know I'm right.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Toulon

These are insinuation attacks, you guys are saying I'm scared and desperate.

Who's really scared and desperate? In an arguement its usually the one resorts to such methods like attacks.

You guys know I'm right.

I thought you were going to bed? This isn't a competition for me. I'm actually enjoying your contrasting views but I feel that most of what I've said has simply hit a wall with you. Anything that you feel is too far out there you simply label as irrelevant even though it directly influences your understanding of Steve's model of reality. Additionally, you ignore the parts about objective reality that you can not prove but take issue with ones in relation to subjective reality. Anyone can hop onto a forum, take a stance about something and then not be willing to see things outside of their current perspective and claim they are right.

[supertom]

Originally Posted by Toulon

These are insinuation attacks, you guys are saying I'm scared and desperate.

Who's really scared and desperate? In an arguement its usually the one resorts to such methods like attacks.

You guys know I'm right.

what have we got to fear? we werent born subjective you know we have already made peace with death. you are the one who seems hesitant to open up to subjective reality. If you didnt find something about it real, you wouldnt have made a account and started a thread trying to denounce it. There is something about subjective reality that scares you.

Imaginary figment out

[Toulon]

we have already made peace with death

How can death exist in subjective reality?

[supertom]

Originally Posted by Toulon

How can death exist in subjective reality?

I meant the athiest objective death, I already made peace with it. I'm speaking for the others in the thread but i also believe they have made peace with death.

I dont get why your asking us those questions, ONLY you can answer them because its your reality and what ever answer you find is your truth.

It doesnt matter what you believe belief doesnt do anything in subjective reality. There is no point even discussing something that doesnt matter in subjective reality.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Toulon

Why right now am I bound by the all the laws of phyics?

Because I believe them? And if I unbelieved them they would disappear?

What made me believe them in the first place?

Steve already answered this. There is no past in which you started to believe in objective reality in the first place. You believe in the objective world now and therefore are creating a past where you seem to have picked up a belief in an objective reality from objective reality. You are bound by the laws of physics because you believe in them. If you unbelieved in them, they would disappear.

[Toulon]

Forgetting that, if my time arguement can't work....

Where did these beliefs come from right now??

What experiance led me to them?

Why the laws the laws of physics?

Where did my idea for the manifistation of humans come from?
Why do they look like they do? Why is my CAR outside? Where did I get those concepts from?

And ask yourself, where did YOUR idea of humans an cars come from and why are they congreuent with my idea?

BECAUSE WE BOTH LIVE IN OBJECTIVE REALITY!!


How could I manifest something that makes so much logical sense? Not dream sense to me, but real logical sense. There are mathematical equations for gravity, weak nuclear force, strong nuclear force etc. that make sense. There are no incongruent parts....

2+2=4

If I hold up 2 fingers and 2 fingers and count them, I will come with 4.

That also makes mathematical sense.

When I lucid dream, I can do anything I want. I have no objective beliefs. Why when I am dreaming now do I have objective beliefs??????

And besides that his arguement is kind of silly, I mean how could anyone learn anything if there is no past. He is typeing in english right?



So far, we are going back to my first post.

The only strength Steve is refering too. His only defense is that its unfalsifiable.

Every arguement is unfalsifiable.


Like the ridiculous convictions I heard from my old pastor.

"God put dinosaur bones there to test our faith"

"God doesn't do miracles anymore because people have been bad"

etc etc

really ridiculous,

He even admitted it, he mention it, its only proof is I cant directly disprove it.

I can't directly disprove Fred the Dragon.

Or the Telitubies.

Or that Mario and Luigi are playing softball on the moon with David Hasslehof.

Or that I can shoot pink lasers from my eyes but only when no one is looking..











The only reason he came up with SR to begin with is to bend reality to fit LOA, and a sub reason to fit the "why can I only access one mind" nonsense which is easily explained with evolutionary biology. Yet of course Ev. Bio. is yet a figment of my conciousness.

He could have came up with other realities to fit other ideas! And if they were unfalsifiable, could they also be true?


I am going to demonstrate this. I will make a new reality of my choosing, post a thread about it and offer Steve to come force it to be seen as false.

But at every arguement I will come up with something to make it unfalsifiable.

Will everyone here believe me?

[Toulon]

What about the physical laws of science? Can I break them?

Not if you believe they are real. Whatever you believe to be universal law, the physical universe (including your body) must obey. You cannot break any law which you “know” to be true. But you can change what you know to be true once you begin to recognize that you are consciousness itself, not merely a body-mind in a physical universe.

Why do I know them to be true?

Forget my previous post.
What made me know the phyisical laws to be true?

Why did I ever even know them to be true?

Why do I know them to be true now?

Why didn't I always know subjective reality to be true?

If the decision was always arbitrary, if my experiance is just my manifiestation

Why didn't I realize I am dreaming a long time ago?

Why don't I realize I am dreaming right now, like I can when I'm lucid dreaming?

Why is the knowing about the truth of the phyiscal reality so hard to shake?

If it is simply arbitrary?

[Toulon]

For for the sake of an effective debate, please dont post some long post adressing a single one of these questions

but answer each of them

[SeaRod]

All theories not grounded in Reality will inevitably crumble; there's no need to argue with who's theory is right and who's theory is wrong because Life takes care of that--through pain, suffering, and death.

[Toulon]

Originally Posted by SeaRod

All theories not grounded in Reality will inevitably crumble; there's no need to argue with who's theory is right and who's theory is wrong because Life takes care of that--through pain, suffering, and death.

I could not agree more.

This SR is just like all the nonsense religions.
I am begining to wonder if this is some joke Steve is playing, or if he really believes his own BS....



Perceptions may vary. I will agree with that. I will agree with subjective perception. But there is only one reality....

Steve you get a gun, believe you will deflect the bullet...wait until you totally believe. And then shoot yourself in the foot and tell me what happens.

Its the only way.

Intend and manifest a bullet reflecting shield will magically appear, truly believe it. And then shoot yourself.


Tell me what happens

Oh yeah whatever you tell me doesn't matter because "your just a figment of my imagination" .

You try it yourself though.

[James81]

As a rather objective (*snicker*) observer of LoA/Spritituality, it appears to me that it's the whole Geocentric vs. Heliocentric debate rapackaged and upgraded for society in the 21st century. Back in the 1500's, people believed that the earth was the center of the universe...they believed this so strongly, that they branded ole what's his face as a heretic.

Centuries later, we look back at that and ask how those peeps coulda been so stupid to believe that stuff.

And I think the same type of mindset goes into LoA and Subjective reality. And the reasoning for that is, well, because from your SUBJECTIVE point of view, it looks like you ARE changing the world. (Because you're changing YOUR world.)

Thus, for me, it works better to see LoA and Subjective reality as things that shape and change ME and my perspectives, and in this shifts it draws me and my focus towards the things I'm intended. Which, to me, makes WAAAAAY more sense.

Psychologically speaking, we are pretty "selfish" creatures in the sense that we tend to see the world as WE are, and we project our own inner workings onto external things, and then we give our power to those external things.

[James81]

Although, I gotta ask you a question, Toulon...

Why are you so surprised that a guy who practices the domination side of D/S, who calls himself a Savage Master, and is sexually and internally moved and turned on by the concept of slaves.....tends to see the world through the lens of bending reality to fit his wishes?

To me it's not surprising at all. Kind fits the general psychological profile pretty well if you ask me.

At the end of the day, I don't think it matters if you believe in it or not. The stuff that is essentially non-falsifiable (such as LoA, religion, spirituality, God, etc.) doesn't really matter if they are objectively true or not. Does it work for you? That's the question the holds the power for me. Lots of people's lives have been changed for the better through religion and LoA. These things bring people a sense of personal power and purpose.

Of course, they can also be used as things to blame as well or avenues through which peeps hand over their power.

It's not the belief itself that's doing that...it's how people use those beliefs.

[Toulon]

it appears to me that it's the whole Geocentric vs. Heliocentric debate rapackaged and upgraded for society in the 21st century. Back in the 1500's, people believed that the earth was the center of the universe...they believed this so strongly, that they branded ole what's his face as a heretic.

The dynamics of the arguement I am posing, and the dynamics of the responses I am getting is so different from that debate on so many levels..

In terms of evidence, in terms of dynamics, in terms of falsifiablity.

Both Helio and Geo centric models were easily falsifiable.

This arguement is totally different, and your statement in a way insinuates a false perspective on the argument.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Toulon

The dynamics of the arguement I am posing, and the dynamics of the responses I am getting is so different from that debate on so many levels..

In terms of evidence, in terms of dynamics, in terms of falsifiablity.

Both Helio and Geo centric models were easily falsifiable.

This arguement is totally different, and your statement in a way insinuates a false perspective on the argument.

Well, you're looking at it objectively, as if I was directly comparing the two discussions. (Big surprise, there, amirite? )

I bring up that example as an example of the type of mindset behind the IDEA. Essentially, you're looking at the behavioral and scientific level of things, and I was speaking more about the idea/internal representation of things.

In other words, I made a post about apples, and you saw oranges, and then you told me that my post was about oranges because you saw oranges. How very subjective of you, my friend.

[Toulon]

Why are you so surprised that a guy who practices the domination side of D/S, who calls himself a Savage Master, and is sexually and internally moved and turned on by the concept of slaves.....tends to see the world through the lens of bending reality to fit his wishes?

I am not suprised actually.

At the end of the day, I don't think it matters if you believe in it or not. The stuff that is essentially non-falsifiable (such as LoA, religion, spirituality, God, etc.) doesn't really matter if they are objectively true or not. Does it work for you? That's the question the holds the power for me. Lots of people's lives have been changed for the better through religion and LoA. These things bring people a sense of personal power and purpose.

LOA is falsifiable,

Most religions are falsifiable, for instance a religion that says its holy book is true and in the holy book in says that earth is the center of the uniiverse

is falsifiable.

Spirituality is falsifiable, and true...

God, is awaiting evidence, but is falsifiable.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Toulon

I am not suprised actually.



LOA is falsifiable,

Most religions are falsifiable, for instance a religion that says its holy book is true and in the holy book in says that earth is the center of the uniiverse

is falsifiable.

Spirituality is falsifiable, and true...

God, is awaiting evidence, but is falsifiable.

I beg to differ.

If those things were falsifiable, then they would have been proven objectively true or false a long time ago.

To YOU they might be falsifiable, but have you seen the endless debates about this stuff? LOL

Again, you take a very subjective stance. You're very powerfully using subjective reality and you don't even realize it.

[Toulon]

If those things were falsifiable, then they would have been proven objectively true or false a long time ago.

Be specific, which of those is not falsifiable?

LOA? Which definition are we talking about? Cause the one I am thinking of is falsifiable.

And most religions have been proven objectively false, especially the big 2, Islam and Christianity.
People still have faith, or adapt their beliefs, but they are false.

Spirtuality is a pretty broad, but the human experiance of spirtuality is objectively true. Carl Sagan often talks about how spiritual science is to him..

And God is awaiting evidence of falsifiablity.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Toulon

Why do I know them to be true?

Forget my previous post.
What made me know the phyisical laws to be true?

You can't see the color blue if you're using a red lens. You have to just dive in and explore it from the inside. Again, you're projecting a past based explanation for your beliefs because of your current belief in objective reality and belief in the past.

Why did I ever even know them to be true?

You know them now. Everything else is a fantasy created by your belief system.

Why do I know them to be true now?

You believe in them. "But why?" Any explanation you could find would be past based and therefore a projection from your belief system.

Why didn't I always know subjective reality to be true?

Once again time is a construct of your beliefs.

If the decision was always arbitrary, if my experiance is just my manifiestation

Why didn't I realize I am dreaming a long time ago?

Time, time, time. At least your objections have a consistent theme. Maybe because you believe in objective reality so you believe in a past where you didn't realize it for seemingly solid rational reasons.

Why don't I realize I am dreaming right now, like I can when I'm lucid dreaming?

Because you don't believe it is possible.

Why is the knowing about the truth of the phyiscal reality so hard to shake?

You can't know the truth of something absolutely. You can only have beliefs about it. You only believe your beliefs are hard to shake because you want to believe that.

If it is simply arbitrary?

You believe it is hard and therefore your reality reflects that.

This theory is irrefutable, try as you might. You're looking at it as if it were an ordinary objectively verifiable theory, but it doesn't work like that. The question you might consider asking yourself is if adopting this perspective might have more value to you than keeping your current perspective. You can test drive it and see for yourself if it's the right vehicle for you.

The views expressed here are not my own. I am playing devil's advocate since Steve is a busy guy. :P

[James81]

Originally Posted by Toulon

Be specific, which of those is not falsifiable?

LOA? Which definition are we talking about? Cause the one I am thinking of is falsifiable.

And most religions have been proven objectively false, especially the big 2, Islam and Christianity.
People still have faith, or adapt their beliefs, but they are false.

Spirtuality is a pretty broad, but the human experiance of spirtuality is objectively true. Carl Sagan often talks about how spiritual science is to him..

And God is awaiting evidence of falsifiablity.

All of them are not falsifiable.

If they were falsifiable, then they would've been proven objectively false a long time ago and wouldn't be as popular as they are today.

Are you really unaware of how subjective your take is on this? In a thread where you criticize others for subjective reality, you are very subjectively choosing what evidence you believe and calling it objective.

<----personally thinks that is hilarious, in an ironic kind of way.

[Toulon]

taylor your regressing, I am asking where the beliefs came from and your saying I have these beliefs because I have those beliefs


That is nonsense

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Toulon

taylor your regressing, I am asking where the beliefs came from and your saying I have these beliefs because I have those beliefs


That is nonsense

It only seems like I'm regressing because you believe I am. It only seems like I am saying "you have those beliefs because you have those beliefs", because you believe that.

It only seems like nonsense to you because you believe it to be.

[Toulon]

ever heard of empirical evidence?

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Toulon

ever heard of empirical evidence?

Yes. And for a normal theory like the existence of DNA or the carbon dating of fossils, that works. For Steve's subjective reality, as mentioned a couple of times now, it does not apply because all evidence is based on a belief in that evidence.

[SlicK]

I don't get it why some people feel that they have proof of something, if they can't prove the opposite.

If I never saw a ghost, then it doesn't exist. What kind of ****ed up logic is this And they're also cocky, considering the others delusional. The same way how people were considering the Wright brothers delusional. Flying? Come one man, it's impossible, get real!

Anyone has proof that a man cannot levitate? Send me proof, I'll pay you $15,000 for it. Open for all!

[Midnite]

Originally Posted by Toulon

Why do I know them to be true?

Forget my previous post.
What made me know the phyisical laws to be true?

Why did I ever even know them to be true?

Why do I know them to be true now?

Why didn't I always know subjective reality to be true?

If the decision was always arbitrary, if my experiance is just my manifiestation

Why didn't I realize I am dreaming a long time ago?

Why don't I realize I am dreaming right now, like I can when I'm lucid dreaming?

Why is the knowing about the truth of the phyiscal reality so hard to shake?

If it is simply arbitrary?

It is very easy for you to defend Objective reality against Subjective reality based on the existence of a temporary human flaw that doesn't allow us to scientifically prove the ethereal, the supernatural or more importantly the God self. Because that is what your entire argument is based upon isn't it? Your somewhat ability to live in a world bound by scientific facts that you didn't coin up. All the scientists in the world have already created your defence for you, all you have to do now is fight the downhill battle against what is currently considered to be unprovable.

What made me know the physical laws to be true?

In 1959 Carl Jung discovered what was to be known as the Collective Unconscious inherently found across in not only his own patients but in all life-forms thereof. Beyond just an individual's Personal conscious, which defines the behavioural characteristics of a person, we also possess a far more superior psychic complex known as the collective unconsciousness, which acts as an independent complex that drastically predates the individual since the beginning of time. The origin of the collective unconscious is unimportant because it doesn't relate to this question. What is important is how the collective unconscious affects your everyday life.

It was discovered that there existed pre-existent archetypes that form the conceptual matrixes of deep thought patterns regarding psychological issues and the make-up of the human mind. What this means is that we have some kind of pre-existent energy matrix system governing how we react under certain circumstances. That moves on to establish how we are bound by an innate collective unconscious that has provided to keep you 'trapped' in the respective laws of physics, as the brain controls the human body and the human body is what effectively interacts with our surrounding environment. In the end of the day, our laws of physics are just our universal observations of this world around us moving mechanically.

However not everybody thinks the same do they? We still have a Personal conscious that ultimately decides whether we believe in religion or not, whether we want to or not. What if it was the same for the laws of physics as well? And that is where Subjective Reality comes in. Though there exist some pre-determined guidelines, we ultimately have the last say in creating the worlds around us, based on the strength of our thoughts to possibly fathom such an idea of becoming our own God. The reason for why you are not given the power to recognise your subjective reality in childhood, is that your mental maturity can not be trusted to handle life decisions and the direction you would like to proceed. What you need to realize is that the power 'is' given to you. There exist Yogis who are able to transcend the laws of gravity and levitate. There also exists the notions of Angels and Demons who transcend every single law in the book. But why don't you believe in them in your concept of Objective reality? Because they have not been scientifically proven, or 'observed' in a laboratory.

The counter-strength of the collective unconscious is what limits you to the confines of a normal human being. Your mental power is not strong enough to forsee the dream-like nature of humanity because the collective unconscious does not allow for such a concept. Subjective Reality allows for the concept of being aware and having the subtle ability to create the world you live in or to be fully accountable for your every action. It's easy to live in Objective reality because everything is nice and safe and written into physical law. Everything is fixed with concrete foundations. It allows for people to go about their lives without the need to worry about the responsibility of being a God.

Why did I ever even know them to be true?

Answered above. Pre-existent thought matrix.

Why do I know them to be true now?

The collective unconscious started you off. You weren't smart enough to start oposing the laws of physics when you were just born. You live in a physical world that contains observable laws 'pioneered' by famous scientists, ultimately fed down to you by your science teachers. The laws were taught by people in the very same dream you are living. The chain goes all the way back to the guy who first coined the idea. These teachers then solidified your understanding. Ultimately creating a stronger and more concrete system before you were even born. You still believe in their concrete relativity even now.

Why didn't I always know subjective reality to be true?

You are not the first. Why would the collective unconsciousness want its own participants to be born with the inherent solution? It doesn't. It wants you to figure out its secrets the hard way every day of your life till you learn to transcend the 'system'.

Why didn't I realize I am dreaming a long time ago?

That's anybody's guess...
No. Actually it's not. You have never realised you have been dreaming because you are so caught up in your self-aggrandised objective reality scenario where you are right, because other scientists are right, that you have effectively failed to see past the tip of your nose and grasp at the mouldable world around you. The Physical plane is bound by laws and you are in a physical body. You like it that way because that is the way you were taught in school, and that's that way it's going to stay unless proven otherwise.

Why don't I realize I am dreaming right now, like I can when I'm lucid dreaming?

When we sleep, our astral counterparts are able to enter into dreams, and we are able to control our environments via lucid experiences. Your astral counterpart has a higher vibration in a higher vibratory environment, meaning it is easier to manipulate with thought consciousness.

You don't realize you are dreaming because you live in a world fixated by Objective reality. If you ever decide to firstly enter the world of Subjective reality, and then spend the time to learn its secrets, life will start to mimic a lucid dream. The thought response may be a bit slower... especially considering you are now trying to manipulate a low vibratory environment with your mind, but with enough mental strength and enlightenment... mimic it nonetheless...

Why is the knowing about the truth of the phyiscal reality so hard to shake?

We are talking about billions of people thinking the exact same thought here. On top of that when we start adopting; psychic, paranormal, spiritual, eastern, or any kind of 'otherworldly' thoughts and practices, it moves against the social norm which directly inflicts upon our psychological need to be wanted by others. Our need to be loved. Our need to fit in. We have been socially conditioned to not accept anything but the 'truth' (as you so eloquently put it).

If it is simply arbitrary?

It's not as random as you think. I know people who are bound to Subjective Reality because that is what is ultimately giving them a more fulfilling life. They don't want a mechanical world. They want a world that is changeable, adaptable, not set in stone, bound by a higher loving source. They just can't scientifically prove what they want yet.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Toulon

There is an invisible dragon in my garage, its name is Fred and it is fond of Led Zepplin.

Bullocks! Everyone knows dragons are extinct.