Why are so many anti-fear?

[Nelson]

In these forums I have seen a lot of talk of religions. While I do not believe in Christian Fundamentalism (or fundamentalism of any kind really) I do believe in Christianity. However, I feel from personal experience here (of course I may be generalzing) that there is a strong distaste for Christianity here. The claims are that Christianity is a fear-based religion. While I agree that fear is part of the religion, I believe it to be a love-centered religion. But I have a few questions for the "Haters" of Christianity:

1. What's wrong with having fear be a part of your religion? Or your life? While I thin kthat fear and paranoia can be causes for false alarms and a great deal of terror...they are neccesary to make wise decisions. I believe in our lives we make good decisions from a balance of seeing positive and negative. What good is it to be able to see value without seeing cost?

2. Another claim I see is that you are God, or God does not judge us, we only judge ourselves. Since you believe this don't you believe in justice? Justice/Karma/Whatever is repayment for your actions by my definition. So, shouldn't you be repayed if you do an action that causes another to suffer? Don't you think murderers should be punished? If you answered yes, then shouldn't all dark deeds should be punished? Even your own? So if you are God then how would you judge your actions fairly? Or, if you still believe there is no judgement then why? Why can't God/The universe reflect back your evil as well as your good?

3. If there is judgement and we have done some evil (which I believe and I hope you do as well that there is no mortal man without guilt) then shouldn't we rightfully be afraid? Desperate to seek some form of forgivness or some pardon?

[Billy]

A wise descision made in fear, sounds a bit odd to me.

[Nelson]

If you are being chased by a bear you will most likely choose to run. That decision is both wise and made from the position of fear. Don't you agree?

[radeldudel]

'good' and 'evil' is a matter of perspective.
What one christ might say is 'good' can be 'evil' from another christs point of view.

'good' and 'evil' is something we humans invented. Only we humans use those to judge ourself.

Christianity for itself is a nice religion. But the current implementation with the church, with sins, using fear, is just a way to control people and has not much to do with christianity itself.

Love You!

[radeldudel]

Originally Posted by Nelson

If you are being chased by a bear you will most likely choose to run. That decision is both wise and made from the position of fear. Don't you agree?

Hehe, if you are *really* frigtened you probably won't run, but just sit there trembling, eyes wide open, unable to cope with the situation.
And if you run due to fear, you probably run in a worse situation, right into the next tree, a dead end, a second bear, because you don't think.

If you feel your fear, accept it, and act wise about it you might do something more sensible, like going back in your car, in a hut, running to a street.

Feeling your fears is very important, but don't let your fears dictate *what action to take*. Actions dictated by fear are usually very short-sighted.

Of course you are right, you should listen to your fears. Never shut your feelings out! They are there for a very good reason.

But the original posters point read to me like he was saying using fear to make people do good things is a good idea (like "if you don't be nice you'll be condemned to hell in your afterlife").

Love You!

[Nelson]

lol radeldue very interesting perspective on the bear. And the judgement side of things.

However, I am asking you straight up on your belief: If someone kills, hurts or steals from another person for their own gain (as in: "not" executioners, police etc.) should they be punished? Isn't that evil in all (or almost all) societies? I have a basic understandign of many religions and cultures so I think it's safe to say that very few cultures condone such behavior. Is that just a coincidence?

Next, have you ever hurt another person, mentally or physically? Have you ever cut another person down or made them feel small? I bet you have. Or you've probably stolen something at least once, right? Have you ever gotten in a fist fight? Shouldn't you be punished if you have? If you are your own judge and there is no God, or you are God then would you justly punsih yourself for your actions?

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Nelson

If you are being chased by a bear you will most likely choose to run. That decision is both wise and made from the position of fear. Don't you agree?

I'd say thats simple self preservation. If you take an example such as the bible, and I have to admit I havn't read it in many years, I can remember many wise sayings but not one from the mouth of someone who was being chased by a bear.

[radeldudel]

Originally Posted by Nelson

However, I am asking you straight up on your belief: If someone kills, hurts or steals from another person for their own gain (as in: "not" executioners, police etc.) should they be punished? Isn't that evil in all (or almost all) societies? I have a basic understandign of many religions and cultures so I think it's safe to say that very few cultures condone such behavior. Is that just a coincidence?

*grin* Is a soldier, policeman, executener not hurting for personal gain? They do this job to earn a living, which definitely is some personal gain.
And those who hire soldiers/police, they do this for a gain, too: they gain 'peace' (what exactly peace might be is up to them, they pay).

What is 'good' and 'evil' is just a definition. You could say we are free, and have soldiers and police to protect us. You also could say we are slaves to follow rules/laws, controlled by soldiers and police.
Its all a matter of your point of view.

Of course cultures have ways to control violence.

I don't say it's wrong to punish. And I don't say it's right to punish. Again, these are just opinions. Points of view.

Originally Posted by Nelson

Next, have you ever hurt another person, mentally or physically? Have you ever cut another person down or made them feel small? I bet you have. Or you've probably stolen something at least once, right? Have you ever gotten in a fist fight? Shouldn't you be punished if you have? If you are your own judge and there is no God, or you are God then would you justly punsih yourself for your actions?

Yeah, sure I have done something that hurt someone else in some kind of way. Just like anyone else. Even a dead-born kid has hurt someone: his parents feelings. Left them alone with guilt.

Since you are stating that probably everyone has done something to hurt someone, you think everyone needs to be punished? Everyone will go to hell (or whatever your punishment might be) anyway?

Well, if I go to hell anyway, what point is there to fear it? If it will happen anyway I won't waste a thought about it. It's like fretting about tomorrows weather: Useless. Pointless.

And again, how should it be judged? I might have stolen food to feed homeless children. Is this 'evil' or 'good'? Killing someone might feel 'evil', but what about killing in selfdefense? In a war? Then it might have been 'good'. Or again, maybe not?

It's not that I say we should not be judged, I say we can't be judged, since there is no way to define whats 'evil' and whats 'good'.

Love You!

[Akashic_Librarian]

Christianty is a fear based religion, NOT Love Centered. It manipulates its followers into believeing that an almighty being will decide your fate, so you best be good. Its a macrocosm of saying go to sleep or the boogeyman will get you!

If there is judgement and we have done some evil (which I believe and I hope you do as well that there is no mortal man without guilt) then shouldn't we rightfully be afraid? Desperate to seek some form of forgivness or some pardon?

Whats done is done. Dead is Dead, so to speak. Life is the future, not the past. Looking back at the past and feeling guilt or suffering from it, is simply embracing what is dead. I have done so bad things sure. But I don't cry when a vicar tells me to repent my sins, like I care. I know I did wrong, I punished myself with my own guilt. I resolved to change and I did. Thats punishment. Karma doesn't necessarily manifest in physical torture, it can come in mental upheaval as well.

Another claim I see is that you are God, or God does not judge us, we only judge ourselves. Since you believe this don't you believe in justice? Justice/Karma/Whatever is repayment for your actions by my definition. So, shouldn't you be repayed if you do an action that causes another to suffer? Don't you think murderers should be punished? If you answered yes, then shouldn't all dark deeds should be punished? Even your own? So if you are God then how would you judge your actions fairly? Or, if you still believe there is no judgement then why? Why can't God/The universe reflect back your evil as well as your good?

Of course I believe in those things, as a God I try my best not to cause suffering to others. Of course Murderers should be punished. "All dark deeds" as you put it, ARE punished, every single "sin" I have commited has been "dealt with" in one way or another, like I say, it may just be your own guilt that serves as punishment.

Try and understand that The Universe is not a seperate sentient being to me, or you, or anyone. It is all one mass pool of vibrating consciousness. Thus punishment for my sins cannot be acted out without me consciously acknowleging my sins do you see?

[JHL]

Originally Posted by Nelson

While I agree that fear is part of the religion, I believe it to be a love-centered religion.

Hi Nelson, I am certainly not a "hater" of Christianity - on the contrary I have a healthy respect for people of the book.

However I think what most religious skeptics would find 'intriguing' its that on the one hand you say your religion is love-centered, while on the other hand the whole religion is underpinned by the clause that if you dont do what's expected of you, you'll end up in hell.

It seems to be a case of "love yourself, love your neighbour, love everyone! Or else."

So thats probably one of the reasons why your claim of a love-centered religion raises a few eyebrows.

I believe there are many excellent facets to most religions. They typically all mean well and end up being much maligned owing to what people make of them. The other fundamental problem with them, of course, is that they reinforce the issue of 'seperation'. I'm this, you're that. Houston, we have a religious war on our hands...

[torilink]

you cannot hold two contradictory thoughts at the same time and believe them both.

Either you believe in LOVE > Unconditional and without judgement

or

you believe in Fear > Based upon the perception of Lack in yourself and others and all about Judgement and Punishment

[Akashic_Librarian]

The problem I have with modern day Christianty is that it isn't what Jesus intended for us. Since the time of Jesus Christ the bible has been rewritten so many times...is it the same scripture as it was back then? Each time some king re-wrote it he had all the other copises burnt....so...kinda makes you wonder...

[CoachChar]

I used to call myself a Christian, but in the past 3 - 5 years my need and desire for a religious label has evaporated. I'm a spiritual being having a human experience. God is within and everywhere; the Universal Mind, All-That-Is. God is love.

1) The more I live and grow, the more I choose to be focused on and biased toward love: that which I perceive to be a benefit or a positive. I'm most interested in what I PREFER as opposed to everything else. I have lots of data at my disposal as I make decisions. Yet many areas of my life have become simpler to navigate with my new perspective. I trust my inner wisdom, I live in the present (not mourning the past or worrying about my future), and I choose what I prefer. Because I have declared (discovered?) a purpose for my life I also use that purpose as a compass to help me choose.

2) I believe that EVERYTHING (thought, deed, creation) is energy. The Universe (God) is never out of balance; always maintaining equilibrium. I needn't be concerned with judgment, keeping score, or even staying on the "good" side of "the line". My role is to live freely and to accept responsibility for the consequences of my choice. Some consequences I prefer and want more of, some I don't. All are mine to experience. Sometimes I experience them through what others have created. Cool! What blesses one blesses all because "we" are ONE. I'm not interested in what's bad and what's good. And I don't believe that God who created all the universe has any list of rules that dictate conditional love. The one thing I believe I'm here to really understand is that "we" are ONE. Period.

If there is judgement and we have done some evil (which I believe and I hope you do as well that there is no mortal man without guilt) then shouldn't we rightfully be afraid? Desperate to seek some form of forgivness or some pardon?

3) Nelson, I've had a tough time responding to any of your questions because they are written from within a context and a paradigm that I don't share. The third question is the toughest. What stands out for me:

• JUDGMENT
• EVIL
• MORTAL
• GUILT
• AFRAID
• DESPERATE
• PARDON

All these concepts are optional or of minimal concern in my life. Yes, even mortality. My body is mortal, but my body is NOT who I AM. My release of Christianity came as a result of my willingness to see God as more than some "father" who has conditional love for me based on me being "good", appropriately "respectful" (fearful), and patient for heaven (concerned with the future, not living in the present). Wow... That sounds WAY too much like my mortal, biological father who is a nice guy who just so happens to be very much attached to his ego.

I'm not desperate for anything. And no part of me needs pardoning. I simply am. Judge all you want. I prefer to judge nothing and noone. It's tough. Sometimes I do slip back into labeling and judgments. It wears me out and holds me back from making my intended contribution and living my purpose fully.

I'm not anti-Christianity or anti-anything. I simply don't prefer it as you seem to. Cool! I'm glad there are experiences and creations that I don't prefer in my world. It's through the experience of contrast and comparison that I have enough information to determine what I do prefer and what I do want.

I've gotta run now. I realize this message is probably RIFE with typos and misspellings. There may even be some logical holes. That's fine especially since I'm not interested in changing your perspective. You asked, so I answered.

[ethereal]

Fear, Guilt, Shame, Self-Pity, etc. are unnecessary negative emotions, and are actually indulgences of the ego. The fear of God actually takes you farther away from God/enlightenment, folks!

Fear isn't necessary -- discernment is. You can see a bear right in front of you, and have no fear and be clear-headed about what to do. And if you're enlightened, you wouldn't even be afraid of dying, you would be radiating so much love that the bear wouldn't even be able to attack you in your presence. Hahaha, love the bear to disarm it!

It isn't that people on here don't like Christianity, as I believe all people here highly respect Jesus Christ and his Teachings in the New Testament, which are actually quite love-centered. They just don't like the religion itself, which in some cases is heavily based on the Old Testament, and which if you do your research on, you'll easily find that it's full of holes and errors and untruths and falsities. It's the Old Testament God that's fearful and judging, and that God doesn't exist -- it comes from visions from the lower astral realms (hells), and from the ego projecting anthropomorphic human defects onto God.

Christianity ought to mean following Christ's example, which will take you all the way up the Levels of Consciousness to Unconditional Love. But to make the mistake of equating the Old Testament God with the New Testament God ... well, it'll suck

[Angela]

1) Fear does certainly have a place in our lives, of course. Authentic fear in the face of threat, like of The Bear or the quieter more intuitive fear of an individual of situation, spurs us to take correct action and so survive. The fear built into christianity is not authentic fear -- it's the anxiety of possible repercussions that may or may not happen down the road. I don't think anxiety is necessary to make wise decisions.

2) Judgement: you are talking about two different judgements. There is the judgement society places on the accused: Is he guilty, or is he not guilty? according to laws made by (and generally agreed to by) people. That's a judgement I feel people are qualified to make. "Did he do it, or not?" I'm perfectly fine with punishments being meted out to murderers or doers of bad deeds.

But then there's the christian god/santa claus judgement: Are you Good, or are you Bad? Lots (not all) of folks who believe in the christian god feel qualified to pass such judgements themselves. If it were a question of, "Is this person good to have in my life, or not?" well, that seems like a good question to make a decision out of. But a human deciding that another human is Bad because his god says so (or for whatever reason) kills off all possibility otherwise for the judged and for the judge. Actually, I think the same is true even if the judgement is "Good." I don't that a person is either Bad or Good, so that kind of judgement makes no sense to me.

Since I believe there is no god, it's a moot point to me that any god would judge us. Since I believe in people, I believe there are more desirable ways to live than in killing off possibility for others, or in others killing off possibility in me.