Non-duality

[ZenFender]

Recently, I've really been looking into buddhism and taoism more closely, and I've been hoping to integrate their teachings into my life.

But the one teaching that I always having trouble grasping is the concept of non-duality. They say don't discriminate between good and bad, beautiful and ugly, pleasure and pain. But how?!?! Is it not natural for us as humans to make distinction between good and bad?

If we truly become non-dualistic, then what are we to do with our lives? If we do not discriminate between the "bad" feelings of hunger with the "good" feelings of satiety, then will we not die very soon?

If we do not have ugliness, then where will be the beauty?

It seems that life would be like a haze if we were truly non-dual. Am I misinterpreting the concept? Or am I missing out or something. Please help! Thanks.

[Truefire]

Viewed from a non-dual perspective, you can see reality as both dualistic and non-dualistic, hence its "dreamlike" and hazy quality. On the surface its all transient and changing and any differences you see are matters of relativity. Below that dream surface(and engulfing it) is a calm, complete oneness where nothing really changes.
Non-duality is like a framework for thinking. When you approach reality from a non-dualistic perspective, you become less attached to the dualistic grasping that causes suffering. So you (objectively) see your desire for the good half of a dualistic thing like food, you can act on the desire or not, but the choice is truly in your hands from the non-dualistic perspective.

Non-duality feels more "complete," like nothing is missing, or worth going after, but you may as well do SOMEthing, or you can stare at your navel for 3 years and become a monk(no offense, you know I love you guys). With the cultivation of loving kindness you naturally feel an urge to help every being in existence, including yourself(both of which are really the same thing from a non-dualistic perspective).

Its probably a smart thing to eat. Normal human function still exists, suffering exists, happiness exists. Money is a nice thing to have. however trivial possessions become pointless in the dualistic sense.

Maybe somebody else knows about skillful vs non-skillful actions and what they mean? I sure it relates to this, but for the life of me I can't remember how that theory went!.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Non-Duality is something that can only really be achieved when you fully embrace Duality. Which is what the whole Darkworker/Lightworker thing is about. its about embracing wholly the problem (Duality) and working towards to solution (Non-Duality) As you get further down the path of Light/Dark you realise that to ultimately help yourself, you have to help others, and to help others you have to help yourself. Only on the lower levels of this are there differences, as you get higher the changes become more subtle and less distinct, until ultimately, I reckon you just end up in a non-dualisitic state. Totally free. That is Truth. That is Life. Life is not a struggle. Life is not a thing to forever resist. When you embrace it. When you let it flow through you, insteads of around you, you suddenly realise that everything is so much easier than you thought.

[Simmiah]

Well, I respect David Hawkins' writings on this. & I understand what you're asking too because, even at the point I'm at now, I still look at Lao Tzu's teachings & go "huh?". Heh.



Anyways! I am in line with Truefire. Non-duality is the quality of life that is underneath the daily life that goes on around us. When we only see the anger a person is carrying, or only the clothes they are wearing, or see only their face we cannot see the beauty & divinity that shines forth from underneath. It is quiet & unassuming but it is there.

There is no Beauty vs. Ugly...but rather, beauty & love & oneness surround us all & is called many names.. God, Allah, Yahweh, whatever.. but it exists.

& according to Hawkins when one achieves enlightenment I believe he said the body functions on its own & you realize it wasn't you that was getting you to eat, bathe, brush your teeth but rather the body does it on its own & you don't have to force it to. So you can still have a "normal" life in a certain sense of the word but you just don't become attached to the things that used to attach you. I hope this makes sense. If you're curious you can read Hawkins' writings.. Eckhart Tolle I like too. I am reading a Course in Miracles too & that I find helpful also.

Hmm... I believe when you are reading that you are to not differentiate between good & bad & such..well, because some "positive" emotions are actually not based on Love but rather from an attachment to them. If you look closely it can be observed I believe. So there is no good or bad but rather a beauty that shines from within. Heh. I'm not enlightened but I hope that helped. Maybe check out the authors I mentioned..it might help. I was also confused too. especially when I read the Heart Sutra & they talk of "form is void, void is form" & I believe that is in line with what you are asking of right now.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by ZenFender

Recently, I've really been looking into buddhism and taoism more closely, and I've been hoping to integrate their teachings into my life.

Me too.

Originally Posted by ZenFender

But the one teaching that I always having trouble grasping is the concept of non-duality. They say don't discriminate between good and bad, beautiful and ugly, pleasure and pain. But how?!?!

I tried to find something I have read recently, but I couldn't find it. What it said, though, was that, in accordance with non-duality, there is nothing bad, only an absence of good, nothing ugly, only absence of beauty, and so on. The following expresses this:

"2. Abstraction

When beauty is abstracted
Then ugliness has been implied;
When good is abstracted
Then evil has been implied.

So alive and dead are abstracted from nature,
Difficult and easy abstracted from progress,
Long and short abstracted from contrast,
High and low abstracted from depth,
Song and speech abstracted from melody,
After and before abstracted from sequence.

The sage experiences without abstraction,
And accomplishes without action;
He accepts the ebb and flow of things,
Nurtures them, but does not own them,
And lives, but does not dwell."

(LaoTze - TaoDeJing)

So, meaning that each pair of opposites has been extracted from a whole entity. It means we are not supposed to extract, or abstract, the two sides from the whole. If you don't judge a thing, or analyze it, it just "is" and the whole is left in tact, I guess.

Originally Posted by ZenFender

If we do not have ugliness, then where will be the beauty?

So, according to that, beauty will be everywhere that there is not an absence of beauty But if you see beauty before you, you are aware in that moment of that beauty, however, if you see in another moment something where there is no beauty, you don't take note of it in particular, but if you do, you might just notice that there is no beauty there, however, there will probably be something else there to observe, so noticing there is no beauty ought not to occur. You observe what it is and you don't become aware of or observe what it isn't.

That's how I understand it.

[Anima]

The rise of duality is represented both in psychology and in the Adam and Eve/Garden of Eden story.

We're born fused with our environment. Babies do not see themselves as separate from their mother or life. They know they are hungry, they cry and are fed, as one situation. As we begin growing and learning, we are taught duality. We split the world into good/bad, up/down, right/wrong, black/white. We also split the world into inner/outer. We believe that reality is outside of us, and we separate from it. This is our fall from Grace.

In order to learn and conceptualize, we must create theories, and in logic, we move into a false sense of time, creating that separation between ourselves and our universe, or what we look at. Meanwhile the seer, seeing and what is seen remains whole, and one, independent of how we see it. We create the idea of the past and the future, and we separate from where we are. With this separation, we create insecurity and fear. We do so in the name of learning. This can be great, when we can learn what we desire to, AND balance that with keeping the channels open to the Truth that we are in each moment. Unfortunately, we are for the most part entrenched in these ideas of separation and therefore duality. The vast majority believe in and perpetuate these false notions. It is entirely within our power to continue resolving the dichotomies, and to return to wholeness.

[torilink]

This is how I understand non-duality.

It is seeing only truth and choosing to place no belief in illusions.

There is only:
Love
Peace
Hope
Health
and so on....

Everything else, other than "Perfect ______" (anything) is an illusion.
We were created perfect, and receive everything we ask, so there really is no lack or negative experience, unless we choose it.

So being non dualistic doesn't mean to sit on the fence between two extremes, it means to place your belief and trust in the one that is TRUTH and let go of the belief in the illusion.

[ethereal]

I've had a lot of trouble with nondualism for a long time, but I'm finally starting to get a little bit of it

The main thing about nondualism isn't that ugly and beauty are the same and they don't exist -- it is that there is only one variable, beauty and non-beauty. It isn't that there's an "on" and "off", there is only "on" and "not on".

So we don't say good and bad are the same, we just say that there are degrees of one variable, good.

This takes away all concepts and leaves only the Truth.

All dualities are based on concepts only, and these concepts are relative depending on what position you take on them. For you, something might be "good", but for others, it may be "bad." That means that "good" and "bad" are just relative labels and not Reality, for relativity does not exist in Reality. In Reality, something just is what it is. Labeling it "good" or "bad" is extraneous and distorts reality.

That's what nondualism is all about -- seeing everything as it is, without conceptual filters by the ego. We don't equate good and bad, we just see that everything is just what it is. You still pick what is good for you, but you live in the Reality of Oneness and not in the conceptual reality of the mind.

For belief in dualities shapes experience. If you believe that "good" and "bad" exist as two independent variables, then there arises superiority over choosing "good", righteousness about being "good", judgment of what is "bad", fear of the "bad", a "war" happening between the "good" and "bad" guys, etc. All this is a conceptual reality, but if you believe in it, then that shapes your experience.

But if you only see degrees of good, then you see that people are just being who they are, and they can't be any different. They only see what they think is good for them, and that's their choice. You choose what you think is good for you. Then everybody is good, and they're all being as good as they can be, and the world is perfect as it is. There's no need to hate "bad" people, they're just ignorant in choosing lesser degrees of good. You can help them choose higher degrees of good, but in the end it's still their choice.

Notice how this removes layers of extraneous concepts that feeds on juicing negativity? Because every duality contains a positive/desirable side and a negative/undesirable side, and if you take one position then the other position automatically becomes negative. But once you collapse the duality, then negativity doesn't have to arise anymore. Everything is just what it is, and that is not different than the Ultimate Reality which is Love.

[ZenFender]

Hmmm, the way I see it, the "sage" still makes distinctions and dualities- its just that he understands them for what they are and aren't contained by them.

So when he sees a beautiful flower, he understands that the label of "beautiful" is created by himself, and has absolutely nothing to do with the flower itself. Thus, when a "bad" situation occurs, he understands that the label of "bad" is entirely his own view, and thus, has the power to either accept it or change his view.

I honestly don't think its humanely POSSIBLE to not live life without dualities- it's how language and logic operate! But we must simply see the labels for what they truly are- relative, subjective, and separate from the object itself. Thus, when we label someone as "evil," the sage doesn't begin to hate him because he understands that HE gave him the label of "evil," and not the person himself.

Basically, a sage still judges and differentiates like the rest of us- its just that he doesn't put much weight on them.

Watcha guys think?

[ethereal]

I would call that a sage-in-training

The experience of a sage really is non-dualistic, there's no mistaking it. People can lose awareness of their body in that blissful state, can forget to eat, even forget to breathe -- it doesn't matter much anymore. Many enlightened people leave the physical plane that way. (Don't let that scare you, though! their consciousness goes off to non-physical realms for more adventures )

To clarify -- the body-mind still has to live in the world of duality (and it goes on spontaneously and automatically, without a "you" (ego) having to run it and make choices), but consciousness itself has disidentified with the self and is nondualistic; Awareness aware of only itself, and not the contents of consciousness.

You also begin to see everything as yourself, because you're the Awareness that contains everything. Everything becomes incredibly beautiful, because intrinsically they are Divine by nature of Existence via God's Manifestation, and God is Infinite Love/Beauty.

I've had tiny glimpses into that state, and it really is that way, not just metaphoric. So all the spiritual work we do is well worth it in the end

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by ethereal

To clarify -- the body-mind still has to live in the world of duality (and it goes on spontaneously and automatically, without a "you" (ego) having to run it and make choices), but consciousness itself has disidentified with the self and is nondualistic; Awareness aware of only itself, and not the contents of consciousness.

This is my only fear left, my body running on auto pilot and doing a bunch of ************ I wouldn't like once I become enlightened. I would say it is the only thing holding me back. The only reason I don't let myself go there fully and only take peaks...control.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by DoAnyOfYouExist

This is my only fear left, my body running on auto pilot and doing a bunch of ************ I wouldn't like once I become enlightened. I would say it is the only thing holding me back. The only reason I don't let myself go there fully and only take peaks...control.

This just makes me imagine Zombies running around the planet - LOL

sorry, just couldn't get the image out of my mind when I read this.

[ethereal]

Hahahaha! enlightened zombies, lol!!

Well, you can say, God is in control, by virtue of you identifying with God. The Presence of God as Infinite Love is what directs you spontaneously at every moment. There is no separation or delay between decision and action -- the action IS the decision, and vice versa. Speakingness occurs on its own, doingness occurs on its own; and everything is an expression of Divinity as Love.

A zombie of God as Infinite Love, I guess...? Lol!!

So no fear letting go, it seems like things can only get better. It's the ego that fears lack of control, the real "I" is the one trying to get you to keep going

[torilink]

LOL -

I like that: A zombie of God!

I don't think there is anything to fear, as the Ego is the author of fear.

[ZenFender]

Okay, I think I'm beginning to understand this duality business a bit better now...

But the main question is now- HOW can we reach this state???

[ethereal]

Lots of spiritual work we've been at it for eons already

You can get peeks of the state with extended meditation (or drugs -- lol!), but you can't stay there until your karma is cleared. I learned that recently, as I kept meditating for hours to get a few seconds of semi-bliss, but once I snap out of it, it's gone.

The Grace (physical presence / aura / field) of a teacher/guru can help clear your karma / boost your LOC. Being in his presence can also put you into that state temporarily.

A lot of this is just raising your LOC as much as you can, either with spiritual work, meditation, satsang with high LOC people who radiate Grace, etc. Highly recommend reading Dr. Hawkins' work, his books talk all about the process.

[Simmiah]

Originally Posted by ZenFender

Okay, I think I'm beginning to understand this duality business a bit better now...

But the main question is now- HOW can we reach this state???

Hawkins writes there are many paths. It has also been mentioned not just by him but by others that the transmittance of the enlightened consciousness is necessary for the student at any given point. I believe in the latest book of his I'm reading now "I" he writes that it is possible to call on a teacher alive or not by simply meditating on him...maybe Jesus or Buddha.

I believe my path has been the heart centered path. I was taught kindness/love by someone a long time ago (not this life I believe) & so for me my path is to be of service & learn to love others. Through this I have been able to also glimpse higher states of being though I have not been able to so easily understand the completely non-dual realms of existence.

There are many paths. There are many teachers. Eckhart Tolle is a recent one, I respect the Dalai Lama, Huang Po is an old one, I am reading the Bhagavad Gita now. I used to read the Heart Sutra almost everyday. Many of the mystical writings are helpful such as the one written by Zoroaster (Kabbalah?). It seems reading it helps. Ask yourself which path would be yours. Hawkins writes there is a heart centered path & there is a path that seeks the truth & will stop at nothing for the truth. I wonder which you would be more inclined to. Hope this helps!

[ZenFender]

"I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty." - Chater 20 of the Tao Te Ching

All this talk about consciousness and different dimensions and God has really messed with my head. I am a simpleton, and I can't deal with so much theoretical talk- I just wanna live a good life dammit!

Too much thinking and not enough living seems to directly run counter against the free flowing philosphy of taoism. Taoism is about simplicity, its about dropping things, not picking up more stuff. So although I am extremely grateful for all your help, I'm afraid I would rather just forget I ever raised the question. And ironically, having let go of my desire to "grasp" the philosophy of non-dualism, I'm beginning to have a better "feel" for it.

Obviously, this is just me and my philosophy. I like it simple But then again, I don't really see myself being enlightened in this lifetime by living likfe this, but to heck with that!

Have a nice day!

[ethereal]

Hehe, perhaps a more direct way to experience non-duality is to let go of everything and be in the moment, when you're so focused on a certain activity that you forget any sense of time, self-consciousness, or locality. Everything then becomes a dance, the dance of life unfolding as Divine Essence. You've probably already experienced some of these states before, it's not as complicated as we all make it out to be

I have the nagging feeling that all this complicated non-duality stuff is just to confuse the mind so thoroughly that it finally gives up and becomes enlightened

[AAMM77]

All this talk about consciousness and different dimensions and God has really messed with my head. I am a simpleton, and I can't deal with so much theoretical talk- I just wanna live a good life dammit!

I know what you mean. Fortunately, it doesn’t get any simpler than non-duality. It is all the dualism, and trying to make sense of it’s nonsense that gets confusing. I had just about given up on all this speculative spiritual mumbo jumbo until I came across a book called The Disappearance of the Universe a few years back, which is a book about the non-dualistic teaching called A Course in Miracles. Put simply, the core of true non-dualistic teachings is that non-duality is truth, duality is illusion. If you are familiar with the story of the prodigal son, then you know the story of this universe. We seemingly left oneness to experiment trying to live separated from our source. (Note: God had nothing to do with making this universe, if God did, God would be a dualist instead of a non-dualist.) The way home is in learning to forgive without compromise, because forgiveness is what dissolves the illusory separation that is dualism. So, the simple message is: live life in whatever way you think you prefer, just remember to forgive.

I recently started a series of videos on my website. The second episode is called “One is the Loneliest Number?” You might want to check that out; it is less than 4 minutes long.
The Universe As Podcasts Vodcasts

[Groundless]

I have the nagging feeling that all this complicated non-duality stuff is just to confuse the mind so thoroughly that it finally gives up and becomes enlightened

I am reading the Blue Cliff record now and it is indeed doing that. To keep on reading it is a challenge to me. I go from wanting to burn it to having an epihpany.