Question about Christianity

[Nelson]

OK before we start this discussion I'd like to say that I am already a Christian. There is no need to take the standpoint of trying to convert me. I have a question that has been hindering my faith.

My question is: Since God is a loving God and desires all to go to heaven with him if possible, then what happens to the people who were not Jews before Christianity and those who were unable to hear of Christianity before they were discovered (such as Native Americans). Please back up your answer with proof (from any source scriptural or othwerwise).

Thank you for your answers in advance.

[bert eats dirt]

How's this for a better test of God's love:

If God is so loving, why does he allow anyone to suffer a single second of hell, let alone all eternity? Surely you have friends or family whom don't share all your beliefs. Would you sit by and watch one of your loved ones march into a burning building? Would you sit back and relax while a loved one was suffering for a single second, let alone for all eternity?

If God really desires us to all go to heaven when we die, why didn't he just create the universe that way? No Christian has ever been able to give me an answer to that question.

You know there are people out there other than Christians who have ideas about God. Some of these people say that God does allow everyone into heaven...

Think about it. ;-)

[ethereal]

Hehe, I have no interest in converting you into anything else. But I do think that traditional/religious Christianity suffers from a limiting paradigm/context that, when put into the proper spiritual perspective, will make perfect sense.

It should be evident that Truth needs no proof. What's there to prove it? It's like trying to prove, "Love is good." Scripture is not an adequate source of proof, due to mistranslations and misinterprations and whatnot. Truth is Truth, no matter who says it or where or when -- usually you can tell it's true, just by common sense. So forgive me for lack of "proof", because I haven't read much of the Bible to give it to you anyway

To understand Christianity it is important to understand the context under which the religion formed. Back in the days of Jesus Christ, most of the world was still uneducated, barbaric, sinful. I was just reading Mark the other day and it talks about Jesus clearing hordes of people of demons (read: lower astral entities) that were possessing them. Wow!

It was impossible for Jesus to explain Divine Truth to uneducated people, so he went by way of parables. Unfortunately, a lot of his words were misinterpreted, mistranslated (he spoke Aramaic, not Greek as it's commonly supposed), and sometimes just plain hard to comprehend, unless you're an enlightened mystic like him too That's why you get all of these confusing paradoxes that make Christianity so hard to logically grasp, because it really is just a mishmash of man's egoic interpretations, visions, mistranslations, projections, etc. with Divine Truth.

Keep in mind, the Old Testament didn't come from Jesus' mouth at all, but by prophets who often mistook visions of the lower astral realms (hells) for God's Word, same with Revelations in the New Testament. Both of these weren't even included in the original Bible, but were added later at the Council of Niceae in around 430 AD. This mistake was influenced by demons in the astral realms who perceived the pure New Testament as a huge threat to their livelihood, and thus tried to mix in falsehood along with Truth to dilute its power over mankind. Some parts of the Bible were actually taken out, as the Church/Council members deemed them as being too advanced (read: high level of Divine Truth) for lay people to understand, and so based on their own egoic judgment they did not include them.

Jesus Christ was an enlightened mystic, and also a Divine incarnation. It has been muscle tested (Google search for "applied kinesiology" and "David Hawkins", it is as close to Truth as you can get -- or PM me ) that he led only led one life and had no previous lives, and indeed he did descend from the High heavens (read: celestial realms above the higher astral), and his purpose was that of Salvation (read: clearing mankind's karma and guiding them towards heaven, from which it is easier to become fully enlightened than in this purgatorial world, and in which Christ consciousness is able to act as man's intercessor with God/angelic beings).

It's religion that tries to promote itself as the "only" way, the only Truth. And look at how much trouble it's causing between Christianity and Islam. Religion is based on the Church's control over people, and thus a lot of rules, regulations, policies, and teachings in Christianity were actually based on people in the Church trying to control others. If the Church didn't say that "our way is the only way", would you think they'd be nearly as successful? It is only through fear and control that they got so much power in the Middle Ages.

It is true that Jesus did say, "The only way to God is through me" -- but what he meant was the Christ body, above the Buddhic body and below the Atmic body. If you've heard of etheric/astral bodies, the Christ body is just another one in which man eventually spiritually passes through, before full liberation/enlightenment. There are plenty of other quotes that seem to suggest that his Truth is the only Truth, and that is true -- but it must be taken in proper context. If you logically think about it, there can only be one Absolute Truth -- otherwise, it wouldn't be true, right? You can't have two different Absolute Truths. Thus, this is what Jesus meant -- his teachings, at the time and context that he was teaching in, and from his enlightened mystical perspective, and complete with the nonverbal teachings (read: energetic/psychic/spiritual communication on the etheric level, which has been lost), is the Absolute Truth. That is all he meant -- note, he did NOT say that Christianity is the only truth (read: control/manipulation tactics instituted later on by the Church), he said the Absolute Truth that he was teaching is the Absolute Truth, and there is only one. The Truth as directly experienced by a mystic, is completely different than the Truth as interpreted by a man's ego (read: animal instincts, "sin" nature).

This Absolute Truth has been widely known as the "perennial philosophy" which I highly suggest you Google search on. This concept explains why ALL religions are partially right and partially wrong -- they all describe the one Absolute Truth as best as they can, but due to human limitations of interpretation and language and the ravages of time, their accuracy has been highly diluted. That is why all religions share so many commonalities, because they're all describing the same thing, just in different words! Note how it is only religion that says "my way is the only way" (which separates men and cannot be what God wants), and not spirituality (which unites all men in all religions together in harmony).

Anyway, from all of the above, it should be clear that:

1) Christianity most definitely is NOT the only way It is a good and common path to tread, and indeed Christ Consciousness is there to intercede for you in heaven, but other paths to God are valid as well.
2) From 1) we can see that there is no need to worry about people who have not discovered Christianity, they have discovered other paths to God and are thus saved. There are other angelic beings in the celestial realms who help those with lower levels of consciousness, not just Christ Consciousness, so no need to worry. And they, for one, don't care about what religion you believe in on Earth -- all they care about is your spiritual integrity (read: level of consciousness).

[CamC]

Originally Posted by Nelson

OK before we start this discussion I'd like to say that I am already a Christian. There is no need to take the standpoint of trying to convert me. I have a question that has been hindering my faith.

My question is: Since God is a loving God and desires all to go to heaven with him if possible, then what happens to the people who were not Jews before Christianity and those who were unable to hear of Christianity before they were discovered (such as Native Americans). Please back up your answer with proof (from any source scriptural or othwerwise).

Thank you for your answers in advance.

Oh that's simple. THEY BURN IN THE FIERY PITS OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY... No Jesus, no heaven, period. exclamation point actually!

Where's my proof? Simple: The Bible

One Book to Rule them All
One Book to Find them
One Book to Bring them All
AND IN THE DARKNESS BIND THEM!!

[Aphrodite]

from what i know of Christian teachings, When Christ died on the cross, all sins were forgiven and the gates of heaven were opened up.

therefore i say until that point they were in limbo or whereever else souls that are reasonably good but werent believers in the Monotheistic God were hanging out - were automatically yanked into heaven upon Jesus's death and resurrection

sorry about the unintellectual reply. being lazy i guess.

[Shaden]

AND IN THE DARKNESS BIND THEM!!

How can a fiery pit be dark? Unless... they have their eyes cut out!!!

That's plausible... what a lovely God

[Sunny]

Ethereal! What a great post. Your words contain immense wisdom. I have a few questions:

It is true that Jesus did say, "The only way to God is through me" -- but what he meant was the Christ body, above the Buddhic body and below the Atmic body. If you've heard of etheric/astral bodies, the Christ body is just another one in which man eventually spiritually passes through, before full liberation/enlightenment. There are plenty of other quotes that seem to suggest that his Truth is the only Truth, and that is true -- but it must be taken in proper context. If you logically think about it, there can only be one Absolute Truth -- otherwise, it wouldn't be true, right? You can't have two different Absolute Truths. Thus, this is what Jesus meant -- his teachings, at the time and context that he was teaching in, and from his enlightened mystical perspective, and complete with the nonverbal teachings (read: energetic/psychic/spiritual communication on the etheric level, which has been lost), is the Absolute Truth. That is all he meant -- note, he did NOT say that Christianity is the only truth (read: control/manipulation tactics instituted later on by the Church), he said the Absolute Truth that he was teaching is the Absolute Truth, and there is only one. The Truth as directly experienced by a mystic, is completely different than the Truth as interpreted by a man's ego (read: animal instincts, "sin" nature).

This mistake was influenced by demons in the astral realms who perceived the pure New Testament as a huge threat to their livelihood, and thus tried to mix in falsehood along with Truth to dilute its power over mankind.

There are other angelic beings in the celestial realms who help those with lower levels of consciousness, not just Christ Consciousness, so no need to worry.

When you say that the Christ Body is above the Buddhic Body and below the Atmic Body what do you mean? When you talk about demons from the astral realms what do you mean? I have never explored the concept of etheric/astral bodies. How do they relate to Hawkins' Levels of Consciousness? When you say there are other angelic beings, not just Christ Conciousness what do you mean? What is the difference between the Christ Body and Christ Consiousness? Do you have any links or book recommendations that will explain it?

[JHL]

Originally Posted by Nelson

My question is: Since God is a loving God and desires all to go to heaven with him if possible, then what happens to the people who were not Jews before Christianity and those who were unable to hear of Christianity before they were discovered (such as Native Americans).

There actually is a very simple answer to this. There's a principle (the actual name of which now escapes me) that states that you are judged according to your 'station' (or what you know). In other words, if you didnt know any better, than you are judged accordingly. If you did know better but 'sinned' anyway, well then you had more to answer for.

In the bible there are examples of God punishing His greatest and most beloved followers the harshest when they strayed - because of their stature.

So in the context of your question, people who legitimately had no idea about Christianity, would ostensibly not have suffered the equivalent penalty of those who did but did not practise Christianity.

[JHL]

Originally Posted by JHL

There actually is a very simple answer to this. There's a principle (the actual name of which now escapes me) that states that you are judged according to your 'station' (or what you know).

Hurrah! I managed to track it down.

Its called noblesse oblige - nobility obligates. It means the greater the person, the greater the responsibility. And [shudder] the greater the consequences for entertaining the forces of ...the darkside. Bwah ha ha ha! BWAH HA H...cough!..Hack!...Choke!

Lightsabre radiation. Its a killer, I tell you!

[Michael Chui]

Wow. What a tumultuous response.

Originally Posted by Nelson

My question is: Since God is a loving God and desires all to go to heaven with him if possible, then what happens to the people who were not Jews before Christianity and those who were unable to hear of Christianity before they were discovered (such as Native Americans). Please back up your answer with proof (from any source scriptural or othwerwise).

I've heard the question several times. And while I'm too lazy to actually dig out anything to back it up, there seem to be two prominent theories among believers:

1) Too bad. This is the reason for the missionary movements today, but was also the fundamental drive behind the European colonnial movement, undergirded by Manifest Destiny: it is the Christian responsibility to spread the Good Word, or they won't have the chance to be saved.

2) Before ascending to heaven, Christ visits the dead (and, presumably, those who die later) and offers them the chance for salvation. Same deal as everyone else: accept and be saved, reject and be damned.

[ethereal]

Originally Posted by Sunny

Ethereal! What a great post. Your words contain immense wisdom. I have a few questions:

When you say that the Christ Body is above the Buddhic Body and below the Atmic Body what do you mean? When you talk about demons from the astral realms what do you mean? I have never explored the concept of etheric/astral bodies. How do they relate to Hawkins' Levels of Consciousness? When you say there are other angelic beings, not just Christ Conciousness what do you mean? What is the difference between the Christ Body and Christ Consiousness? Do you have any links or book recommendations that will explain it?

When you say that the Christ Body is above the Buddhic Body and below the Atmic Body what do you mean?

There are various sheaths, or subtle energy bodies, that our soul identifies with as we incarnate into physicality. I think there are something like 7 of them, Ramana Maharshi talked a little about them, maybe you can do some Googling too -- frankly I don't know too much The Christ, Buddhic, and Atmic body are the last and subtlest sheaths, and as we evolve more and more we disidentify with the grosser sheaths and activate / identify with the subtler sheaths. Each of these bodies have their own chakra and energy systems, etc. But beyond that, I don't really know

When you talk about demons from the astral realms what do you mean?

It's a complicated topic. Suffice it to say, "hells" do exist in other dimensions, and in those dimensions are entities and energies who have refused God and are thus stuck in those realms. And for them, their greatest joy is to divert spiritual seekers like humans who still have the choice to choose God/spirit, and pull them off the path. Which is why highly spiritual people are prone to attacks from the astral realms sometimes, i.e. Erin's latest blog entry for example. If you keep your awareness up and avoid dipping into negative emotions, it should be ok though.

Dr. Hawkins have talked about a few experiences with the astral realms in his books, too. Someone who was normally at LOC 300, temporarily dropped to LOC 70 when a negative astral entity "possessed" his consciousness and tried to contact Dr. Hawkins.

Some channellers are channelling negative entities through the astral realm, and they don't even know it. You might know of some people like that.

There are "portals" from the astral realms where low energies are entraining people's consciousnesses. It's not as if entities and demons are flowing in to Earth, like those horror stories it's more like there are events, places, and things where negative energies tend to dominate people's consciousness -- violent video games and movies, occult rituals, magick and witchcraft, bullfighting and cockfighting, etc.

All this paints a pretty bleak picture, but it's best to remember that it's not about a "war" between good and evil, everyone has their own karma and free will to choose their own destiny. Good and evil are just two different realms, and you have the choice to go one way or another. Light and dark, good and evil don't fight each other -- so there is no need to save other people's souls and whatnot (and violate their free will!). Focus on raising your own LOC, and mankind's LOC will automatically rise.

I have never explored the concept of etheric/astral bodies. How do they relate to Hawkins' Levels of Consciousness?

Well, not much to say As you raise your LOC, the chakra systems in your etheric/astral bodies start to open up as well, and spiritual energy systems start to awaken and activate. Dr. Hawkins talks about the 3rd eye of the Buddhic body, which is the eye of spiritual discernment and opens at LOC 540.

When you say there are other angelic beings, not just Christ Conciousness what do you mean?

There are infinite # of dimensions and realms, and some of these realms are angelic and filled with angelic beings. They all wish to serve others and ease suffering whenever they can. For example, many of us here have guardian angels

Angels start from LOC 500+, and archangels at 50,000+ (Dr. Hawkins talks about this somewhere).

Christ Consciousness descended from Heaven and incarnated as man, for mankind's salvation -- but there are many others working with Christ as well

What is the difference between the Christ Body and Christ Consiousness? Do you have any links or book recommendations that will explain it?

The Christ Body is a label for a certain subtle energy body sheath. I'm not sure how it relates to Christ Consciousness, perhaps when the Christ Body is fully activated, Christ Consciousness comes down into man's consciousness.

I really have no idea, perhaps the people over in the Psychic Phenomena forum would know more about this

Namaste

[Simmiah]

Originally Posted by Nelson

OK before we start this discussion I'd like to say that I am already a Christian. There is no need to take the standpoint of trying to convert me. I have a question that has been hindering my faith.

My question is: Since God is a loving God and desires all to go to heaven with him if possible, then what happens to the people who were not Jews before Christianity and those who were unable to hear of Christianity before they were discovered (such as Native Americans). Please back up your answer with proof (from any source scriptural or othwerwise).

Thank you for your answers in advance.

I hate to say it but yes according to some interpretations of the Bible who think their way is the only way..then they believe others do not go to Heaven & suffer in Hell. I've met these people personally before & I find their interpretation to be false & not aware of the various mis-translations or mis-interpretations of the Bible in general. There's a lot of information out there on the Council & various other translations of the Bible (I am with ethereal with a lot of her info.. I knew about some of it prior to reading Hawkins). These people who interpret the Bible & Jesus' teachings this way tend to be judgmental & reveal themselves as such. I do not believe they are in line with Christian values.

I speak as someone whose husband was/is Christian & we both are in some sense (though spiritual in a more general sense). I can see how this question can hinder their your faith because it seems contradictory with a loving God.

In my personal opinion & from various sources (Near death experience information, Hawkins...etc...) it seems that we are all allowed to go to Heaven regardless of our religion. Our love is what allows us to go there. So be loving & try your best to figure out what being loving means & voila..you're already on the path. So.. the people who were Native Americans & loving are drawn to the love of Heaven & God so they are drawn there. However some people are actually afraid or sometimes hate Love & hence they do not go to the Heavenly realms but rather maybe Hell or Purgatory. This is all from Hawkins more so & various writings I've read on the Near Death Experience site I found a long time ago. There are many who have said that when you die you are drawn to the energy that you hold inside of you. So if you were a hateful murderer you will go to a hell-like realm. If you are in between hateful & Loving.. you go to a realm that is more like maybe what was described as Purgatory. Loving people are drawn to the heavenly realm. You are drawn to what you are & anything higher.. you may resist if you do not like it. Also according to some NDEs.. you are only allowed to go as high as you can handle. Apparently the pure energy of God can be too much for some to handle who are not ready for it so they are allowed to go as high as they can handle. As hard as it is to believe for me I guess there are people out there who have deep aversions to unconditional Love & fear it because of their personal projections so they run away from Heaven & go elsewhere.

However at any given point if you desire help from God it is given to you. That is why they consider God all-loving because it is continuously available to us & always there. We just have to ask for it. I hope this makes sense. There's a lot of info on near death experiences out there if you're curious. I rather liked Mellon Thomas Benedict's experience & he got to see all the various realms including the hell-like ones.

[ZHereford]

Christianity is but one connection to and interpretation of God.
It is no more or less valid than other sincere and well meaning belief in God, the soul and goodness.

What really matters is our intentions and actions towards what is good and right.
Whatever tradition you are brought up in is relevant and should be followed if it encourages right action, helping your fellow man and being the best person you can be.
To nit-pick on rules, interpretations and rituals misses the point and defeats the purpose.

How can you go wrong with that?

Z. Hereford

Essential Life Skills

[ethereal]

Wow, thanks for your post Simmiah

You explained everything really well. "Our love is what allows us to go there" --

[annie]

Originally Posted by Nelson

OK before we start this discussion I'd like to say that I am already a Christian. There is no need to take the standpoint of trying to convert me. I have a question that has been hindering my faith.

My question is: Since God is a loving God and desires all to go to heaven with him if possible, then what happens to the people who were not Jews before Christianity and those who were unable to hear of Christianity before they were discovered (such as Native Americans). Please back up your answer with proof (from any source scriptural or othwerwise).

Thank you for your answers in advance.

I wish to proclaim that God is just and will not send a Chinese peasant or an Indian beggar to hell simply because he or she had the misfortune of never hearing about Christ. Yet Christians believe that salvation is only through Christ. The resolution is this: deceased beings, dwelling as spirits and awaiting the time of resurrection and judgment, will be given the opportunity to hear and accept the message of the Gospel. Indeed, God "will [desires to] have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:4)

We get some insights into the work of salvation among those who have already died in 1 Peter 3:18-20, which reports that Christ, while dead, "went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient." The passage then indicates that people from the time of Noah were included among those that Christ preached to. The preaching to deceased beings is also mentioned again in 1 Peter 4:6: "For for this cause was the gospel preached to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." This suggests that there is still accountability for the acts in the flesh (our mortal existence), and that they will be judged, but they can still gain access to the grace of Christ and repent and come unto Him.

This concept is consistent with Paul's writing about the judgment in Romans 2. In verse 4, he indicates that the goodness of God leads us to repentance, helping us (in verse 5) to avoid wrath on the day of the righteous judgment of God (not arbitrary and unfair!). Verse 6 reminds us that every man will receive according to his deeds, with "glory, honour, and peace to every man that worketh good" (v. 10), "for there is no respect of persons with God." Respect of persons (partiality) is what God would have if he damned some just because they never had the chance to learn of Christ. Verses 12 through 15 continue this theme, indicating that when men are judged for their mortal lives, it will be according to what they knew of God's ways - and according to their conscience (a gift of God to all people, in my view). Verse 16 states that the Gentiles who knew not God's law "shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another."

Without getting into the theology of my particular denomination, let me simply say that I have good reason to believe that God is just, loves all his children, and will be fair in providing an opportunity for all that truly desire His righteousness to gain access to the grace of Christ, if they will accept Him and covenant with Him. Many will not accept Him, as we see in great evidence today. But God reaches out to each of His children and implores them to follow Him. Toward that end, I believe that Christ established a tremendous program of missionary work on the other side of the veil - in the spirit world - so that the Gospel message will go forth to His children of every nation and every era. (I know this sounds wild to many. There are numerous questions that arise, of course, and there are some good answers among many unknown. Happy to discuss - and to take flames as well.)

[The David]

It doesn't look like people are atking this very seriously...lol.

This question has been asked many times. Many who profess Christianity say that God will somehow get the word to those people, if they are honestly seeking truth. Personally, I think that's a cop-out, and it would seem to imply that Westerners (who are more 'Christianized') are more truth-seeking, which I trust is not the case.

Others say that God will give second chances. This seems to be an uncommon view, but then again, I grew up in a sort of fringe fundamentalism, so I rarely experienced anything besides the one-chance-and-you-had-better-not-screw-it-up Christianity.

My personal view? I would rather not say because it is almost purely based on personal opinions and experience, and is not necessarily Biblical. If you're interested in Christian Universalism (the doctrine that God will be reconciled to everyone eventually), check out tentmaker.org. It is heretical, but hey...that's just another word for 'unpopular'.

Just be careful when questioning things...it's how I ended up where I am today.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Nelson

OK before we start this discussion I'd like to say that I am already a Christian. There is no need to take the standpoint of trying to convert me. I have a question that has been hindering my faith.

My question is: Since God is a loving God and desires all to go to heaven with him if possible, then what happens to the people who were not Jews before Christianity and those who were unable to hear of Christianity before they were discovered (such as Native Americans). Please back up your answer with proof (from any source scriptural or othwerwise).

Thank you for your answers in advance.

here's my .02, and I'm not quoten the Bible (I could look up scripture if necessary - but you'll only believe what you want to believe anyhow)...this is just my perception & understanding which is all any of us really can offer you.

God > IS EVERYTHING there is nothing outside of the MIND of GOD

Heaven > BEING or existing within the WILL of GOD

ADAM/US > The Created of GOD - we always have and always will exist within the MIND OF GOD - thus we are in Heaven.

Seperation > Being out of the WILL of GOD

Cause of Seperation > Miscreation by ADAM/US of the Ego Mind

FREE WILL > Identifying with the Ego Mind

Christ > Our TRUE state of being which is PERFECTION and without Ego.

We are all in Heaven, but we choose to experience HELL when we identify with FREE WILL or EGO and miscreate in form. We experience this reality and believe in it (which is why we continue to experience it). Yet, it is an illusion as we are all still within the MIND OF GOD. Thoughts don't leave their source, although they can be shared through extension.

Anything miscreated on the level of form, never really existed - we simply believed in an Illusion. So, for all those before us - different religions - and so on, the same thing happens to them as to us. They were always one with God, and always will be.