is there a soul/spirit ?

[wanzulfikri]

well, you will see whether souls exists or not when the afterlife comes...

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by wanzulfikri

well, you will see whether souls exists or not when the afterlife comes...

Or not!

[Keiju]

Originally Posted by Madhavi dd

How did that "something" become "alive" in the first place? What is the difference between a "living" entity of any sort (in any kind of body, human, animal, bird, insect) and inert matter (stone, metal, wood,)? The Gita says that a "living" being goes through 6 kinds of transformations: birth, growth, maintenance, producing byroducts, decline and finally death. Inert matter does not. Why? There is a difference: the presence of the soul.

It seems that you are inferring that we are just a collection of chemicals and that when the chemical combination somehow becomes deranged, the body dies. Why does everyone cry then at the demise of a bunch of chemicals? Why does everyone cry, "My father is gone!" Who was that PERSON that everyone is so sad about his "leaving"? What was his "person-ness", you know, his likes and dislikes, his individual nature, his loving interaction, his intellect, his imagination, his mind, etc., etc., that everyone loved? Are those subtle attributes just the interction of chemicals also? No! There's something else, something not "seen" by the physical eye (but neither are many of our subtle things--mind, intelligence, emotions---). That something is the real person, the soul which energizes the body and gives it life. Unfortunately, "modern science" has done humanity a great DISFAVOR by trying to reduce everything to matter; it has destroyed the heart of humanity, the essence of person-ness and everyone has become confused on the most basic of understandings.

Yes, there IS a difference between matter and spirit and it can be easily detected...and easily understood if one goes to the right source for understanding.

So if the presence of the soul is what causes matter to be animated.

Could a soul then enter inanimate matter and become animate? A soul enters a stone, metal, wood. Does it now become alive?


Not really, the body is part and parcel, what makes us alive. It is hard to seperate the soul from the body, or to even distinguish between the two. Then we can say: body = soul.
If our soul's were sufficient for playing out this game, then we would not even require a body, why bother with a body at all?


Is matter not spiritual? If spiritual things are real then they are also composed of matter. The vedic scriptures say the soul is inside the heart, they have a unit of measure to tell the size of the soul. It if can be measured, then that is composed of matter.

There is nothing that is not composed of matter. If it did not, then that particular item "doesnt matter" i.e. doesnt exist

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

You've angered Hamblor for the last time!

I say bring it on, Hamstring! Let's rumble! Lets see how your all beef patties stack up against my chicken McNuggets!

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Keiju

If our soul's were sufficient for playing out this game, then we would not even require a body, why bother with a body at all?

Funny thing about that. The body is not required for experience to happen, which we get a glimpse of (not proof) in dreams, astral projection, NDE, OBE. The body forms as a reference point for experience, making it possible to have the experience of physical interaction and bodily sensations, but it's actually just part of the experience and not the cause of sensation or the experience of subjective movement. The Intelligence within which and out of which creation forms is not in any way dependent upon it's creation as a tool outside of itself, and in fact the creation never becomes objectively separate from the creator. The universe is not 'out there' because there is no 'out there'.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Keiju

So if the presence of the soul is what causes matter to be animated.

Could a soul then enter inanimate matter and become animate? A soul enters a stone, metal, wood. Does it now become alive?


Not really, the body is part and parcel, what makes us alive. It is hard to seperate the soul from the body, or to even distinguish between the two. Then we can say: body = soul.
If our soul's were sufficient for playing out this game, then we would not even require a body, why bother with a body at all?


Is matter not spiritual? If spiritual things are real then they are also composed of matter. The vedic scriptures say the soul is inside the heart, they have a unit of measure to tell the size of the soul. It if can be measured, then that is composed of matter.

There is nothing that is not composed of matter. If it did not, then that particular item "doesnt matter" i.e. doesnt exist

Whilst I enjoyed and agreed with the first half of your post my friend, I must disagree with the second.

There is certainly the material universe, where all things are constructed/composed of matter - atoms, but then there’s the spiritual realm which incorporates NOTHING of a material nature. Such essences as Intelligence and emotions, consciousness and memory have no corporeality whatsoever, therefore indeed are spiritual - non-physical.

[Beingist]

I haven't posted in this thread, as I consider the question quite significant, generally speaking, and I wanted to chew on it, in my way, before writing a post.

I equate the "soul" or "spirit" to one's essence--i.e., that which is so about a being, rather than the being itself; who or what a being is, rather than the being itself.

That said, to me, there is only one "soul", one "spirit", of which we're all infinitely different aspects, and that single entity of Beingness is what I consider what some would call "God" ("I Am Who Am").

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I haven't posted in this thread, as I consider the question quite significant, generally speaking, and I wanted to chew on it, in my way, before writing a post.

I equate the "soul" or "spirit" to one's essence--i.e., that which is so about a being, rather than the being itself; who or what a being is, rather than the being itself.

That said, to me, there is only one "soul", one "spirit", of which we're all infinitely different aspects, and that single entity of Beingness is what I consider what some would call "God" ("I Am Who Am").

Yeah, I don't have an issue with the soul idea, though it seems like an unnecessary contrivance, as long as there is only one. I think most use the soul idea in order to maintain separation beyond the apparent separation in physicality. To continue the separate self into the 'spiritual realm'. As such, I suspect 'soul' isn't of much use to most if there is just one. As you say, it becomes the equivalent to God.

[theuprising]

Originally Posted by RevDella

Scientists have also proven that there is a thinker behind the thought. .

Wait what? News to me.

[Keiju]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Whilst I enjoyed and agreed with the first half of your post my friend, I must disagree with the second.

There is certainly the material universe, where all things are constructed/composed of matter - atoms, but then there’s the spiritual realm which incorporates NOTHING of a material nature. Such essences as Intelligence and emotions, consciousness and memory have no corporeality whatsoever, therefore indeed are spiritual - non-physical.

I infer from your comment that, spiritual represents the results of material process', whilst material represents matter utilised and process' required for a spiritual existence?

Interesting, in that sense, I agree, such things as "Intelligence and emotions, consciousness and memory" are merely the effects rather than the object producing the results, thus, being an effect, can not be said to be composed of matter, the matter which is required to observe the effects taking place, such as the complexity that is the body.


Though in another sense, but not observed in your post, spiritual is often defined as a place that can only be thought to be composed of matter. They would often refute the idea that anything so dirty as "matter" or "physical" could not possibly make up the "spiritual world". To completely miss the point that we are already in the "spiritual world" and the "matter" it is composed of is eternal... as if God were somewhere other than in this universe, the universe as a word representing the totality that is existence.

[Keiju]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Funny thing about that. The body is not required for experience to happen, which we get a glimpse of (not proof) in dreams, astral projection, NDE, OBE. The body forms as a reference point for experience, making it possible to have the experience of physical interaction and bodily sensations, but it's actually just part of the experience and not the cause of sensation or the experience of subjective movement. The Intelligence within which and out of which creation forms is not in any way dependent upon it's creation as a tool outside of itself, and in fact the creation never becomes objectively separate from the creator. The universe is not 'out there' because there is no 'out there'.

We have never experienced "dreams, astral projection, NDE, OBE" outside the use of our bodies. So yes, though it does prove the possiblity of an experience outside our immediate local sense's, it doesnt prove the possiblity of experiencing reality without "base camp" that is our bodies, the root of our experience, the foundation upon which the experience is built.

The bodies then act as a "base camp" from which we jump into these non-local activities.

Is the body capable of extending itself non-locally, taking its awareness along with it, whilst also experiencing the oridnary senses of the local experience in the non-local? Apparently so.


Its impossible to seperate the two, the same way we can not seperate the awareness required for god to have created himself (spiritual aspect as outlined by Apopohis), but requiring himself (material aspect, the body) to be aware initially to have even been able to consider creating himself....

That is why of the two, spiritual or material, both been inseperable, tend to choose Spiritual as the material that existence is composed of... but I can not ignore the material aspect, as is often done. Both been eternal in its own right.

[Madhavi dd]

Originally Posted by Keiju

So if the presence of the soul is what causes matter to be animated.

Could a soul then enter inanimate matter and become animate? A soul enters a stone, metal, wood. Does it now become alive?


Not really, the body is part and parcel, what makes us alive. It is hard to seperate the soul from the body, or to even distinguish between the two. Then we can say: body = soul.
If our soul's were sufficient for playing out this game, then we would not even require a body, why bother with a body at all?


Is matter not spiritual? If spiritual things are real then they are also composed of matter. The vedic scriptures say the soul is inside the heart, they have a unit of measure to tell the size of the soul. It if can be measured, then that is composed of matter.

There is nothing that is not composed of matter. If it did not, then that particular item "doesnt matter" i.e. doesnt exist

Uh oh...now you're really mixing things up! Here's my question (with all due respect!): "What are your qualifications for giving your opinions about these essential truths?" See, this is what I've learned over many years: My opinion about any subject is...subjective! It's very limited by my experience, familiarity with the subject, knowledge, intellectual capacity, input from others, etc. So although in certain relative instances my opinion may matter, when it comes to absolute truths, things that are the very foundation of existence, my OPINION doesn't matter AT ALL! If we're trying to get down to answers to the basics of life itself, we need to consult with books of knowledge that have been respected for centuries, we need to consult learned personalities that have studied from similar learned masters. Ultimately, we have to take knowledge given by the Supreme Person Himself, because He's the one Who's put everything in motion in the first place and He knows the reality of everything as well as it's purpose.

So...to answer your question: Yes, a soul COULD potentially, enter into a stone or other inert matter and animate it...in fact it DOES when it enters into the "earth, air, fire, water and ether" that compose the physical body...But it DOESN'T because the soul is UNDER THE CONTROL OF SUPERIOR AUTHORITY and it must act according to the direction of that higher force. The soul doesn't just "choose" to enter into this form or that. It's all controlled by higher authorities and governed by his actions (karma) in this life and previous lives as well as by his desires...that information, again, is all in the Gita.

The soul inhabits this body made of matter, but it is NOT material. Of course the soul in this world has a body to act out his desires, but he DOES exist apart from that body and he takes on body after body (reincarnation) in order to try to fulfill his desires, life after life. The secret is to find a way off this cycle of "samsara" (birth and death) and go back to the spiritual world, where EVERYTHING (including the soul) is eternal, full of knowledge and bliss! Doesn't that sound like a better deal than "from dust though art and to dust thou shall return"?!

Yes, the Gita says that the soul is "one ten-thousandth size of the tip of a hair", you're right. but just because you can "measure it" (if you have an instrument to do that), doesn't mean that it's made of matter. The point is that that soul is distinguished from the body which comes into existence at a certain date, grows, produces byproducts, dwindles and dies! It has it's eternal existence and it's our duty as human beings to consult the authoritative sastras (scriptures) to get our questions about life answered, and understand how to live our lives in the best possible way.

[Keiju]

Originally Posted by Madhavi dd

Uh oh...now you're really mixing things up! Here's my question (with all due respect!): "What are your qualifications for giving your opinions about these essential truths?" See, this is what I've learned over many years: My opinion about any subject is...subjective! It's very limited by my experience, familiarity with the subject, knowledge, intellectual capacity, input from others, etc. So although in certain relative instances my opinion may matter, when it comes to absolute truths, things that are the very foundation of existence, my OPINION doesn't matter AT ALL! If we're trying to get down to answers to the basics of life itself, we need to consult with books of knowledge that have been respected for centuries, we need to consult learned personalities that have studied from similar learned masters. Ultimately, we have to take knowledge given by the Supreme Person Himself, because He's the one Who's put everything in motion in the first place and He knows the reality of everything as well as it's purpose.

So...to answer your question: Yes, a soul COULD potentially, enter into a stone or other inert matter and animate it...in fact it DOES when it enters into the "earth, air, fire, water and ether" that compose the physical body...But it DOESN'T because the soul is UNDER THE CONTROL OF SUPERIOR AUTHORITY and it must act according to the direction of that higher force. The soul doesn't just "choose" to enter into this form or that. It's all controlled by higher authorities and governed by his actions (karma) in this life and previous lives as well as by his desires...that information, again, is all in the Gita.

The soul inhabits this body made of matter, but it is NOT material. Of course the soul in this world has a body to act out his desires, but he DOES exist apart from that body and he takes on body after body (reincarnation) in order to try to fulfill his desires, life after life. The secret is to find a way off this cycle of "samsara" (birth and death) and go back to the spiritual world, where EVERYTHING (including the soul) is eternal, full of knowledge and bliss! Doesn't that sound like a better deal than "from dust though art and to dust thou shall return"?!

Yes, the Gita says that the soul is "one ten-thousandth size of the tip of a hair", you're right. but just because you can "measure it" (if you have an instrument to do that), doesn't mean that it's made of matter. The point is that that soul is distinguished from the body which comes into existence at a certain date, grows, produces byproducts, dwindles and dies! It has it's eternal existence and it's our duty as human beings to consult the authoritative sastras (scriptures) to get our questions about life answered, and understand how to live our lives in the best possible way.

so a book, you have no understanding of, is dictating your strategy for living life, given none of our opinions matter on the subject of absolute truth

your gambling that the book is correct, given you do not have the ability to determine for yourself, what is true and what is not


if you can not come to understandings on your own logic and reasoning process, no book on this planet can help you,


if you have placed your trust in this book, following it's strategy for living life, given your mind is apparently too feeble to devise strategies of its own based on an understanding on what you have determined to be true through experiential data, and have experienced good results, then sure maybe there is accuracy in the book,


Though I assure you, this book, the gita can not act as an encyclopedia for every action you should take in your life,

if you want to act correctly, you must understand through your own senses, gita possibly acting as a guide, subjective or not, what is true, for yourself,


the gita is like walking with crutches, its very basic, if you want to compete effectively, you better start walking on your own feet..... nevermind what happens when, god forbid, you want/need to run....


you do realise, every word is interpreted differently by every person on this planet, according to their understanding of reality,


when you read the gita, you are not reading the absolute truth, merely what you are capable of understanding at that moment in time, an advanced practitioner of life living will understand the gita better on his first reading than someone who may have read it a hundred times,



p.s.

if you can measure the soul, then it is composed of matter, and has a design, the same way our bodies do,

anything that exists, has a design, thus is composed of matter, matter is that which makes up anything that exists,

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Keiju

you do realise, every word is interpreted differently by every person on this planet, according to their understanding of reality,


when you read the gita, you are not reading the absolute truth, merely what you are capable of understanding at that moment in time, an advanced practitioner of life living will understand the gita better on his first reading than someone who may have read it a hundred times,

It's true that no book or teaching can convey the ultimate Truth. It's simply something that resonates as well as it does given one's current understanding. The words themselves are a conceptual interpretation of that which is beyond concepts, and certainly the interpretation of those words is even less adequate. There needs to be an openness to seeing the truth of the matter beyond all words and ideas.

[Melrena]

Originally Posted by Keiju

... given your mind is apparently too feeble to devise strategies of its own based on an understanding on what you have determined to be true through experiential data, ....

I only quoted you because I found this offensive. It was rude and uncalled for and honestly... didn't speak highly of you at all. You don't need to put somebody else down to make your point. Nobody needs to be putting anyone down.


Definition of FEEBLE

1
a : markedly lacking in strength
b : indicating weakness

2
a : deficient in qualities or resources that indicate vigor, authority, force, or efficiency
b : inadequate, inferior


However, when you used feeble in the manner you did,

"given your mind is apparently too feeble"

you implied 'feebleminded':


Definition of FEEBLEMINDED

1
obsolete : irresolute, vacillating

2
: mentally deficient

3
: foolish, stupid


Either way, it was uncalled for. And though it was directed towards someone else, your action had a strong emotional effect within me. Enough that I joined just to post this. (I have no idea why I'm still even typing this)



"if you can measure the soul, then it is composed of matter, and has a design, the same way our bodies do,

anything that exists, has a design, thus is composed of matter, matter is that which makes up anything that exists"


What matter is Time? Light? Electricity? Space?

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by bullard123

Nice to Meet you Della...My name is Charles. I'm a liscened Minister/Assistant Pastor as well. God Bless you. And your answer is exactly right! People who have departed from this world remember everything from their past life....

How do you know this?

And if they rememeber everything from the past life, won't that be a source of suffering in the next life? Won't they recall traumatic incidents for example, or realize that some of their loved ones are burning in hell?

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by jeena

I don't think there is a soul which continues to exist after we died. I think if we die it will be exactly like before we were born, nothing more nothing less. I have not seen any evidence which would point in any different direction.

That said I have to add that I find it an extreme privilege that I was chosen to wake up for (about) 80 years as a bonus as a human who in this age who is able to reason about himself and the universe.

Everything is so extremely exciting about the world that I don't feel I have to invent any Gods or eternal souls to feel satisfied, I just open a science book about what ever field I feel to read about, biology, astrology, physics, everything is so magnificent mysterious and beautiful.

I don't understand why anyone would waste their time with stuff like Gods, hell or angels, there is not a shred of evidence which would even make someone curious to investigate.

Exactly. Where were we before we were born?

[Keiju]

Originally Posted by Melrena

I only quoted you because I found this offensive. It was rude and uncalled for and honestly... didn't speak highly of you at all. You don't need to put somebody else down to make your point. Nobody needs to be putting anyone down.


Definition of FEEBLE

1
a : markedly lacking in strength
b : indicating weakness

2
a : deficient in qualities or resources that indicate vigor, authority, force, or efficiency
b : inadequate, inferior


However, when you used feeble in the manner you did,

"given your mind is apparently too feeble"

you implied 'feebleminded':


Definition of FEEBLEMINDED

1
obsolete : irresolute, vacillating

2
: mentally deficient

3
: foolish, stupid


Either way, it was uncalled for. And though it was directed towards someone else, your action had a strong emotional effect within me. Enough that I joined just to post this. (I have no idea why I'm still even typing this)



"if you can measure the soul, then it is composed of matter, and has a design, the same way our bodies do,

anything that exists, has a design, thus is composed of matter, matter is that which makes up anything that exists"


What matter is Time? Light? Electricity? Space?

Arnt you the impulsive one,


Did say "apparently", meaning given his line of reasoning, which was we are all too dumb to see what is true for ourselves, thus must rely on the "authoritative" scripture of the gita, based on... guess what... our own opinions and what we understand to be true of what it is we are reading,


Given your strong reaction, I assume, you also, have a mind too feeble to determine what is true and what is not through your own senses, i.e. "relying on/having faith" in a book, you are uncertain of, to be accurate or not.


You would already know what was in the book if you understood it, thus would not say "I trust the book" but in yourself. It is the lack of understanding that compels people to subscribe to a book, rather than learning from the book and ingraining the lessons contained therein. Then it becomes an understanding not requiring any book to back up, but merely your reasoning process that should demonstrate the understanding.


p.s.

Light is composed of matter. Material
Space is composed of matter. Material
Time is the observed effect of matter, an accumulation of events, rather than the event themselves. The process that describes what links together each moment. Spiritual
Electricity is the observed effect of matter, the accumulation of movement of matter, "electrical phenomina", not the matter itself. Spiritual

[Keiju]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It's true that no book or teaching can convey the ultimate Truth. It's simply something that resonates as well as it does given one's current understanding. The words themselves are a conceptual interpretation of that which is beyond concepts, and certainly the interpretation of those words is even less adequate. There needs to be an openness to seeing the truth of the matter beyond all words and ideas.

"beyond concepts", maybe to an extent. We can say a model is 70% accurate, given the result's produced. The event/process we are trying to model is beyond the model, yet it is better to be 70% accurate and profit from that then not to profit at all.

Beginning stages of life, our models of reality determine how profitable we are. We are extremely unprofitable in the initial stages, though it is irrelevant, because we are barely conscious.

The words and idea's represent models, each of us have differing models based on our understanding.

God understand's the word "existence/reality" perfectly, we can assume, given god is the creator, and god's understanding of existence is demonstrated before our very eyes.

Our model for the word "existence/reality" is only as good as is demonstratable through the results one is able to attain.

If we could achieve what we wanted without the use of words, we would. It is only because we can not get what we want, that we bother using words at all

[Melrena]

Originally Posted by Keiju

Arnt you the impulsive one,


Did say "apparently", meaning given his line of reasoning, which was we are all too dumb to see what is true for ourselves, thus must rely on the "authoritative" scripture of the gita, based on... guess what... our own opinions and what we understand to be true of what it is we are reading,


Given your strong reaction, I assume, you also, have a mind too feeble to determine what is true and what is not through your own senses, i.e. "relying on/having faith" in a book, you are uncertain of, to be accurate or not.


You would already know what was in the book if you understood it, thus would not say "I trust the book" but in yourself. It is the lack of understanding that compels people to subscribe to a book, rather than learning from the book and ingraining the lessons contained therein. Then it becomes an understanding not requiring any book to back up, but merely your reasoning process that should demonstrate the understanding.


p.s.

Light is composed of matter. Material
Space is composed of matter. Material
Time is the observed effect of matter, an accumulation of events, rather than the event themselves. The process that describes what links together each moment. Spiritual
Electricity is the observed effect of matter, the accumulation of movement of matter, "electrical phenomina", not the matter itself. Spiritual

you make me smile.

All I have to say is you don't know me at all. And please, Don't pass judgment on me. I am a happy person. Do you not wish the same of yourself?

I merely pointed out the truth in, words have an effect, whether you realize them or not. Don't assume about me. I read everything, and make up my own mind, based on how I feel. I follow the right action, based on what feels right to me. And what feels right to me, is this:

Making people smile, no matter how small. I don't care if you laugh at me, at least I got you to laugh. For I have impacted your world enough to bring you a smile, and that's all I can hope to do. And if I fail, then that's okay.

I just want to say thank you to those who liked this. I was once told I wasn't good enough and I believed it. Bullying hurts, even the simplest words can have lasting scars. Well no more. I will dance. And you can laugh, you can not like it. But I hope it's brought you a smile. I hope you can laugh. I hope you can look past your ignorance and see the one simple truth. Joy.

And please remember, your tone, your words, and your message do have an effect on others.

Happy Holidays

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t--I_RZQPw

EDIT:
also, I never read that particular book, but I'll be sure to look into it.
and for the record, you're arguing with a 21 year old
It's not worth it, I don't claim to know all the answers,
But I know how words can hurt.

[gene2009]

Originally Posted by Sammino

is there a soul/spirit ?
or its all just in our heads?.

I've had the same question after i watched a few tv programs. They said it all just our brains and nothing more. Hope they are wrong

[Madhavi dd]

Originally Posted by Keiju

so a book, you have no understanding of, is dictating your strategy for living life, given none of our opinions matter on the subject of absolute truth

your gambling that the book is correct, given you do not have the ability to determine for yourself, what is true and what is not


if you can not come to understandings on your own logic and reasoning process, no book on this planet can help you,


if you have placed your trust in this book, following it's strategy for living life, given your mind is apparently too feeble to devise strategies of its own based on an understanding on what you have determined to be true through experiential data, and have experienced good results, then sure maybe there is accuracy in the book,


Though I assure you, this book, the gita can not act as an encyclopedia for every action you should take in your life,

if you want to act correctly, you must understand through your own senses, gita possibly acting as a guide, subjective or not, what is true, for yourself,


the gita is like walking with crutches, its very basic, if you want to compete effectively, you better start walking on your own feet..... nevermind what happens when, god forbid, you want/need to run....


you do realise, every word is interpreted differently by every person on this planet, according to their understanding of reality,


when you read the gita, you are not reading the absolute truth, merely what you are capable of understanding at that moment in time, an advanced practitioner of life living will understand the gita better on his first reading than someone who may have read it a hundred times,



p.s.

if you can measure the soul, then it is composed of matter, and has a design, the same way our bodies do,

anything that exists, has a design, thus is composed of matter, matter is that which makes up anything that exists,

I was out of touch for awhile...apologize for not gieeting back sooner! I'm pretty amazed at your reaction...apparently it threatens your rather LARGE sense of self!

What gives you the right to say that I don't understand the Gita at all? That's pretty audacious of you! We're supposed to be in this forum to LEARN from others. Because my experience and understanding is different from yours, doesn't make it WRONG (except for you apparently).

Just for your information, I don't just read the Gita and let it live my life for me; I've studied it and have applied the principles and teachings in my life for 35 years. I'm not a mindless idiot that just parrots what I've heard. I'm saying things that I've realized to a certain extent, and of course the realizations grow with ones applications of the principles and experiences in life...that's what "growth" means.

I'm very sorry that you haven't had any spiritual experiences, that your conception of existence is only what can be seen by your eyes or felt by your skin. Perhaps you'll find out one day that there's a WHOLE lot more than that! AND I might add, that you would trust YOUR personal experiences (using completely limited and faulty senses) over the wisdom presented by the Supreme Lord Himself, shows the depths of your delusion. You, a created being, are gonna know more about everything than the Ceator Himself! Oh yeah, I forgot, you probably believe all this very intricate and orderly creation just "popped" into being by some random chance...and that books like the Gita are just thrown together by some jerk that's got nothing better to do...well, glad I don't subscribe to your line of thought!

P.S. Just because something has a design doesn't make it material. Your problem is that your understanding of "spiritual" is very scanty, if not non-existent. Order comes from order, not from chance. Your experience should show you that. And, indeed, order comes from an order maker (like laws come from lawmakers; they don't just happen by "chance".

[Madhavi dd]

Originally Posted by Melrena

I only quoted you because I found this offensive. It was rude and uncalled for and honestly... didn't speak highly of you at all. You don't need to put somebody else down to make your point. Nobody needs to be putting anyone down.


Definition of FEEBLE

1
a : markedly lacking in strength
b : indicating weakness

2
a : deficient in qualities or resources that indicate vigor, authority, force, or efficiency
b : inadequate, inferior


However, when you used feeble in the manner you did,

"given your mind is apparently too feeble"

you implied 'feebleminded':


Definition of FEEBLEMINDED

1
obsolete : irresolute, vacillating

2
: mentally deficient

3
: foolish, stupid


Either way, it was uncalled for. And though it was directed towards someone else, your action had a strong emotional effect within me. Enough that I joined just to post this. (I have no idea why I'm still even typing this)



"if you can measure the soul, then it is composed of matter, and has a design, the same way our bodies do,

anything that exists, has a design, thus is composed of matter, matter is that which makes up anything that exists"


What matter is Time? Light? Electricity? Space?

Melrena,

Thanks for sticking up for me! I appreciate your concern! Some of these guys definitely have a rather "expanded" sense of importance. And every "pandit" thinks that his little bit of speculation is the most important insight for everyone else on the planet! I'd rather trust information that's been revealed from higher sources and honored for thousands of years by great saintly persons and scholars from all over the world, than some unknown, self-styled expert. "Been there, done that". It'll never pay off.

Good luck in your pursuit of the Absolute Truth! You'll be happily surprised at the depth of wisdom in the Gita (make sure you get the Bhagavad Gita As It Is...that means it hasn't been interpreted by someone's "feeble" brain, but just presented "as it is" from the sanskrit. Take care!

[Madhavi dd]

Originally Posted by Keiju

so a book, you have no understanding of, is dictating your strategy for living life, given none of our opinions matter on the subject of absolute truth

your gambling that the book is correct, given you do not have the ability to determine for yourself, what is true and what is not


if you can not come to understandings on your own logic and reasoning process, no book on this planet can help you,


if you have placed your trust in this book, following it's strategy for living life, given your mind is apparently too feeble to devise strategies of its own based on an understanding on what you have determined to be true through experiential data, and have experienced good results, then sure maybe there is accuracy in the book,


Though I assure you, this book, the gita can not act as an encyclopedia for every action you should take in your life,

if you want to act correctly, you must understand through your own senses, gita possibly acting as a guide, subjective or not, what is true, for yourself,


the gita is like walking with crutches, its very basic, if you want to compete effectively, you better start walking on your own feet..... nevermind what happens when, god forbid, you want/need to run....


you do realise, every word is interpreted differently by every person on this planet, according to their understanding of reality,


when you read the gita, you are not reading the absolute truth, merely what you are capable of understanding at that moment in time, an advanced practitioner of life living will understand the gita better on his first reading than someone who may have read it a hundred times,



p.s.

if you can measure the soul, then it is composed of matter, and has a design, the same way our bodies do,

anything that exists, has a design, thus is composed of matter, matter is that which makes up anything that exists,

By the way, in case you didn't know (although you pretend to come from a place of great knowledge) "this book", the Bhagavad Gita, was compiled by the same author (Srila Vyasadeva) that compiled ALL the four Vedas and their corallaries, the Puranas, the Itihasas, the Mahabharata and the Srimad Bhagavatam. He's not just some Joe sitting in his room spouting off some philosophy as he sees fit. It contains all the essential teachings of life and was directly spoken by Krsna (God) HImself. Yes, our understanding of the knowledge will vary depending on our mental, intellectual capacity and own level of spiritual awakening, but that does not detract from the knowledge itself. I may not be able to understand trigonometry, but that does not discount the formulas written down in a trigonometry book.

Books...why does anyone go to school of any sort? Why are there ANY books at all? If everyone can get all knowledge by merely speculating on their perceptions of things, why bother seeking advice or information from anyone at all? Our experience is not like that. We inquire from others (who we think are more knowledgeable) all the time, because we are imperfect and teeny. Why do you write about anything at all? And what are YOUR qualifications, that anyone should take your assumptions, that you have gathered with imperfect senses, seriously? "Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet"...that's sanskrit which means that "If one is serious about understanding the Absolute Truth, one must approach a bona fide spiritual master". And who is bona fide? One who has seen the Truth and is outside of the clutches of the stringent laws of material nature. I dare say you are helplessly swimming in the vast ocean of material nature, completely dependent on Her dictates, even if you pretend to be otherwise. Please don't mislead people if you don't have any qualification. Your incomplete understandings should be the impetus for further inquiry (maybe from authorized books which you can then verify by your own experience) not just more of the same unproductive speculation.

[Keiju]

Originally Posted by Madhavi dd

By the way, in case you didn't know (although you pretend to come from a place of great knowledge) "this book", the Bhagavad Gita, was compiled by the same author (Srila Vyasadeva) that compiled ALL the four Vedas and their corallaries, the Puranas, the Itihasas, the Mahabharata and the Srimad Bhagavatam. He's not just some Joe sitting in his room spouting off some philosophy as he sees fit. It contains all the essential teachings of life and was directly spoken by Krsna (God) HImself. Yes, our understanding of the knowledge will vary depending on our mental, intellectual capacity and own level of spiritual awakening, but that does not detract from the knowledge itself. I may not be able to understand trigonometry, but that does not discount the formulas written down in a trigonometry book.

Books...why does anyone go to school of any sort? Why are there ANY books at all? If everyone can get all knowledge by merely speculating on their perceptions of things, why bother seeking advice or information from anyone at all? Our experience is not like that. We inquire from others (who we think are more knowledgeable) all the time, because we are imperfect and teeny. Why do you write about anything at all? And what are YOUR qualifications, that anyone should take your assumptions, that you have gathered with imperfect senses, seriously? "Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet"...that's sanskrit which means that "If one is serious about understanding the Absolute Truth, one must approach a bona fide spiritual master". And who is bona fide? One who has seen the Truth and is outside of the clutches of the stringent laws of material nature. I dare say you are helplessly swimming in the vast ocean of material nature, completely dependent on Her dictates, even if you pretend to be otherwise. Please don't mislead people if you don't have any qualification. Your incomplete understandings should be the impetus for further inquiry (maybe from authorized books which you can then verify by your own experience) not just more of the same unproductive speculation.

whata newb

[Keiju]

Originally Posted by Melrena

you make me smile.

All I have to say is you don't know me at all. And please, Don't pass judgment on me. I am a happy person. Do you not wish the same of yourself?

I merely pointed out the truth in, words have an effect, whether you realize them or not. Don't assume about me. I read everything, and make up my own mind, based on how I feel. I follow the right action, based on what feels right to me. And what feels right to me, is this:

Making people smile, no matter how small. I don't care if you laugh at me, at least I got you to laugh. For I have impacted your world enough to bring you a smile, and that's all I can hope to do. And if I fail, then that's okay.

I just want to say thank you to those who liked this. I was once told I wasn't good enough and I believed it. Bullying hurts, even the simplest words can have lasting scars. Well no more. I will dance. And you can laugh, you can not like it. But I hope it's brought you a smile. I hope you can laugh. I hope you can look past your ignorance and see the one simple truth. Joy.

And please remember, your tone, your words, and your message do have an effect on others.

Happy Holidays

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t--I_RZQPw

EDIT:
also, I never read that particular book, but I'll be sure to look into it.
and for the record, you're arguing with a 21 year old
It's not worth it, I don't claim to know all the answers,
But I know how words can hurt.

nice video Melrena