is there a soul/spirit ?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Well sad to say; by the most valid definition, if you don't believe in a soul, by extension you don't believe in yourself.

What happens if you stop believing in yourself?

[Keiju]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

You hope the CONFIDENCE and varied terminology with which you express might convince me that your assumptions are other than assumptions. I don't need a more convoluted way of calling a spade a spade. If you want to explore honestly you have to be willing to notice your underlying assumptions and stop calling them conclusions, acceptances and judgments. Actual confidence comes from seeing/realizing, not assuming and believing.

So I assume you are also not sure whether you exist or not?

Yes?

And that to know with 100% certainty that one does in fact exist, is but an assumption to you?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Keiju

So I assume you are also not sure whether you exist or not?

Yes?

And that to know with 100% certainty that one does in fact exist, is but an assumption to you?

That I exist is not an assumption or conclusion. Assuming what that is that exists, would be an assumption. How can it not be known that you exist?

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

That I exist is not an assumption or conclusion. Assuming what that is that exists, would be an assumption. How can it not be known that you exist?

I offer the fact that the only thing one can truly determine is that “I AM”, now “WHO AM I?”

[Pot head]

No there isn't any soul, once you die you go into the ground.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Pot head

No there isn't any soul, once you die you go into the ground.

That's a belief if I ever heard one unfortunately beliefs are nothing more than illusions of the human mind.

[Keiju]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

That I exist is not an assumption or conclusion. Assuming what that is that exists, would be an assumption. How can it not be known that you exist?

Well, ive come across many a person who is not sure whether they exist.


Your inablity to understand the significance of existence, is one of the symptoms of what I would classify, under the uncertaincy of the fact of their own existence. But never mind.

To what degree must we be sure, to the likelihood of actuality, for it not to be an assumption?

Is 90% certainty, an assumption?

Maybe 70% is an assumption.


See we have to make decisions and take action in this life. If under the guise that we can not be 100% of an outcome, and thus refrain from taking action based on the 90% likelihood of actuality. You will lose this game.


A conclusion is one of these decisions we make, so that we can take action based on that answer. The results we obtain as a result of the conclusion are an indicator of the validity of the conclusion.


Why do you aim to be accurate with regards to matters in general? It is because we want to increase our chances of success in our endeavours throughout life.


For example one person believes he is eternal. Person A.
The other believes he is temporary. Person B


Now of these two personalities, what we are looking for is the effectiveness of their strategy for living. The difference in this area, will show in the different results they obtain, throughout their life. One is producing better results than the other. The results we obtain are the measure of the validity of our reasoning process.

Scientists postulate mathematically sound theories all the time. It looks fine or it doesnt, either way, the validity of their theory is down to the results that the theory produces.


The more accurate your reasoning process, the better your results will be in life in any endeavour. I believe Person A, who believes he is eternal, will achieve greater results than person B, regardless of whether we are eternal or not, though I think we are. Thus proving the validity of the conclusion that we are indeed eternal.

[Pot head]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

That's a belief if I ever heard one unfortunately beliefs are nothing more than illusions of the human mind.

Yeah i agree with you, what i meant was the human body will decay and only the skeleton will be left after it is buried in the ground.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Keiju

Well, ive come across many a person who is not sure whether they exist.


Your inablity to understand the significance of existence, is one of the symptoms of what I would classify, under the uncertaincy of the fact of their own existence. But never mind.

To what degree must we be sure, to the likelihood of actuality, for it not to be an assumption?

Is 90% certainty, an assumption?

Maybe 70% is an assumption.


See we have to make decisions and take action in this life. If under the guise that we can not be 100% of an outcome, and thus refrain from taking action based on the 90% likelihood of actuality. You will lose this game.


A conlcusion is one of these decisions we make, so that we can take action based on that answer. The results we obtain as a result of the conlusion are an indicator of the validity of the conlusion.


Why do you aim to be accurate with regards to matters in general? It is because we want to increase our chances of success in our endeavours throughout life.


For example one person believes he is eternal. Person A.
The other believes he is temporary. Person B


Now of these two personalities, what we are looking for is the effectiveness of their strategy for living. The difference in this area, will show in the different results they obtain, throughout their life. One is producing better results than the other. The results we obtain are the measure of the validity of our reasoning process.

Scientists postulate mathematically sound theories all the time. It looks fine or it doesnt, either way, the validity of their theory is down to the results that the theory produces.


The more accurate your reasoning process, the better your results will be in life in any endeavour. I believe Person A, who believes he is eternal, will achieve greater results than person B, regardless of whether we are eternal or not, though I think we are. Thus proving the validity of the conlusion that we are indeed eternal.

I wasn't talking about eternal vs mortal, just saying you cannot NOT know that you exist without believing your own stories. You have to exist before you can make up those stories.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Pot head

Yeah i agree with you, what i meant was the human body will decay and only the skeleton will be left after it is buried in the ground.

Ok, although I hope to be incinerated

[TazCo]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

What happens if you stop believing in yourself?

Journey gets mad.

[TazCo]

On a more serious note...

***This is my own personal opinion, with no more proof behind it than one's belief in a deity. I subscribe to Thomas Jefferson's thought - "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.***

Your life, and all it represents, is ONLY in your mind. To me, ones "soul", that which makes them sentient and memorable, is nothing more than energy (as is most of the universe) being stored in a carbon vase. When someone dies, their body is left behind, the energy moves on, be it on this plane or in a different universe. No one truly knows what happens after death, so it really is anyone's guess.

It boils down to personal belief...nothing right or wrong.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

What happens if you stop believing in yourself?

You begin to exist spontaneously, nothing changes? The question begged for spontaneity.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by TazCo

On a more serious note...

***This is my own personal opinion, with no more proof behind it than one's belief in a deity. I subscribe to Thomas Jefferson's thought - "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.***

Your life, and all it represents, is ONLY in your mind. To me, ones "soul", that which makes them sentient and memorable, is nothing more than energy (as is most of the universe) being stored in a carbon vase. When someone dies, their body is left behind, the energy moves on, be it on this plane or in a different universe. No one truly knows what happens after death, so it really is anyone's guess.

It boils down to personal belief...nothing right or wrong.

Nothing is right or wrong but what you speak is of the mind; you perform an action, the action arose from a desire and the desire came from a spontaneous thought from beyond the mind.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Pot head

Yeah i agree with you, what i meant was the human body will decay and only the skeleton will be left after it is buried in the ground.

Indeed, but then of course there's the possibility of resurrection, isn't there?

[Pot head]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Indeed, but then of course there's the possibility of resurrection, isn't there?

We are all animals then it would also apply to Dogs, cats etc., That's how nature is and we can't change it to suit our fantasies.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Pot head

We are all animals then it would also apply to Dogs, cats etc., That's how nature is and we can't change it to suit our fantasies.

I'm not sure why you refer to cats and dogs, but you are right - we can't change it, unless and until we realise that we in fact can, as well as the solution with regards what be our problem, and how the remedy as such is achieved. I mean it has been shown, proven in times past and is surely still available to all.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by TazCo

Journey gets mad.

That quite literally made me laugh out loud. And now I've got that damned song in my head yet again. It followed me around for months a while back.... (I think the Universe is trying to tell me something )

[Madhavi dd]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Does the Gita say there are many souls or one soul?

Arcanum,

Hey! Do you know your name (in sanskrit) means "worship"? Well almost...it's spelled "arcanam"...just an aside...

The Gita says that there are countless, unlimited souls (all individuals) who are all "part and parcel" of the One, Supreme Soul; just like there are unlimited (at least we can't count them) rays of light coming out of the sun. The sun has it's own existence and so do the individual rays. But the rays are certainly dependent upone the sun for their existence. Similarly, we, as persons, all have our source of existence from the Supreme Source, the Supreme Person. Make sense?

[JDuff]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Well sad to say; by the most valid definition, if you don't believe in a soul, by extension you don't believe in yourself.

I'm not sure what you mean, but it's an interesting idea!

Do you mean that I don't believe in the existence of something called "me"? I guess you are probably right! My personality is nothing more than a narrative in my mind and in the minds of others. When it changes, so do I. In that sense, I am immortal.

[Madhavi dd]

Originally Posted by Keiju

You say the soul is visible due to observation of the difference between something that is alive and dead.

However, when something dies, this is a direct result of the failure of the body. When the body becomes disfunctional it breaks down and can no longer operate.

If the only time we die is when the body is no longer functional, then the difference between something that is alive and dead is not proof of a soul.


Something that is alive is the result of a healthy body.
Something that is dead is the result of a brocken body.


What do you say to that

How did that "something" become "alive" in the first place? What is the difference between a "living" entity of any sort (in any kind of body, human, animal, bird, insect) and inert matter (stone, metal, wood,)? The Gita says that a "living" being goes through 6 kinds of transformations: birth, growth, maintenance, producing byroducts, decline and finally death. Inert matter does not. Why? There is a difference: the presence of the soul.

It seems that you are inferring that we are just a collection of chemicals and that when the chemical combination somehow becomes deranged, the body dies. Why does everyone cry then at the demise of a bunch of chemicals? Why does everyone cry, "My father is gone!" Who was that PERSON that everyone is so sad about his "leaving"? What was his "person-ness", you know, his likes and dislikes, his individual nature, his loving interaction, his intellect, his imagination, his mind, etc., etc., that everyone loved? Are those subtle attributes just the interction of chemicals also? No! There's something else, something not "seen" by the physical eye (but neither are many of our subtle things--mind, intelligence, emotions---). That something is the real person, the soul which energizes the body and gives it life. Unfortunately, "modern science" has done humanity a great DISFAVOR by trying to reduce everything to matter; it has destroyed the heart of humanity, the essence of person-ness and everyone has become confused on the most basic of understandings.

Yes, there IS a difference between matter and spirit and it can be easily detected...and easily understood if one goes to the right source for understanding.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Madhavi dd

Arcanum,

Hey! Do you know your name (in sanskrit) means "worship"? Well almost...it's spelled "arcanam"...just an aside...

No, didn't know that.

The Gita says that there are countless, unlimited souls (all individuals) who are all "part and parcel" of the One, Supreme Soul; just like there are unlimited (at least we can't count them) rays of light coming out of the sun. The sun has it's own existence and so do the individual rays. But the rays are certainly dependent upone the sun for their existence. Similarly, we, as persons, all have our source of existence from the Supreme Source, the Supreme Person. Make sense?

So, individual souls that are part of one soul? Can there be parts of one, or is it just oneness?

The individual rays of the sun are continuously formed by the sun itself. If the sun is blocked for a moment, there literally is no ray. The ray has no autonomy in any way, but is merely an expression of the sun. 'Individual ray' is really a misnomer because it never becomes other than the sun itself. All that makes it uniques is what it reflects upon and how that reflection is experienced (by the sun in this analogy). Nothing is ever OTHER THAN the source itself, in expression.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally posted by JDuff: I'm not sure what you mean, but it's an interesting idea!

Do you mean that I don't believe in the existence of something called "me"? I guess you are probably right! My personality is nothing more than a narrative in my mind and in the minds of others. When it changes, so do I. In that sense, I am immortal.

I'm not sure just how you arrive at that final connection, yet your second sentence sounds like a decent start.

There certainly exists in reality a 'me', however we actually have little idea who that is, and as such can merely believe in what we think to be the truth about ourselves. So we invent a facade 'me' in the absence of appreciation per the reality.

In any case, what I was originally referencing is that over time, we've lost contact with the original and only valid definition of the term 'soul', and similarly with our facade 'me', we've fabricated a plethora of alternative definitions to which we relate, yet again none of that is authentic.

So what is the authentic definition of 'soul'? Well you might be interested that it's very different to most everything you've heard previously, and infinitely simpler in fact. It relates NOT to something you have, but rather the whom you are. This is why denying you have a soul is tantamount to denying you have existence. It's also in part a reason we don't authentically know who we are.

The only valid definition then, of the term 'soul' is; the combination of the physical 'me' - the body, with the spiritual 'me' - that part being not at all physical.

You can find this definition given in the Book of Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." So right there we can see the authentic definition; that man doesn't have a soul, but indeed, whilst alive, IS a soul. So again, we aren't given a soul (or can lose it), with life we become a soul.

[Madhavi dd]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

No, didn't know that.



So, individual souls that are part of one soul? Can there be parts of one, or is it just oneness?

The individual rays of the sun are continuously formed by the sun itself. If the sun is blocked for a moment, there literally is no ray. The ray has no autonomy in any way, but is merely an expression of the sun. 'Individual ray' is really a misnomer because it never becomes other than the sun itself. All that makes it uniques is what it reflects upon and how that reflection is experienced (by the sun in this analogy). Nothing is ever OTHER THAN the source itself, in expression.

There's an truth in Vedic teachings called "simultaneously one and different". That kind of covers this quanundrum. WE are "simultaneously one and different" from the Supreme Person: one in quality but different (GREATLY different!) in quantity (meaning everything He does or is, is HUGE; everything we do/are is minute). And yes, we have no seperate existence outside of Him...it's pretty obvious that we are totally dependent creatures!

But your point about "nothing ever being OTHER THAN the source itself" is a deep realization. Yes, actually, there is NOTHING ELSE besides God! Whether it be the living creatures strewn all over the creation, or the matter that we find ourselves surrounded by at this point in time, EVERYTHING is emenating from Him and everything is part and parcel of Him. Time, the karma of the living entities, the laws of Nature and Nature Herself, the multifarious planets and stars in the sky, the five gross elements and three subtle elements...everything is coming from Him...it's a far out realization. Then the question should come: "Why am I here and what is my responsibility in this relationship?"

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Madhavi dd

There's an truth in Vedic teachings called "simultaneously one and different". That kind of covers this quanundrum. WE are "simultaneously one and different" from the Supreme Person: one in quality but different (GREATLY different!) in quantity (meaning everything He does or is, is HUGE; everything we do/are is minute). And yes, we have no seperate existence outside of Him...it's pretty obvious that we are totally dependent creatures!

I would say one in every way, different as in unique expressions of one. Difference is not in conflict with oneness and does not require an actuality of multiplicity, only the appearance of such.

But your point about "nothing ever being OTHER THAN the source itself" is a deep realization. Yes, actually, there is NOTHING ELSE besides God! Whether it be the living creatures strewn all over the creation, or the matter that we find ourselves surrounded by at this point in time, EVERYTHING is emenating from Him and everything is part and parcel of Him. Time, the karma of the living entities, the laws of Nature and Nature Herself, the multifarious planets and stars in the sky, the five gross elements and three subtle elements...everything is coming from Him...it's a far out realization. Then the question should come: "Why am I here and what is my responsibility in this relationship?"

Oneness is in relationship with itself, and so there is no responsibility, nor is there control originating in the individual. The totality of expression unfolds as one since it never becomes fragmented. The fragmentation is an appearance only. As you say, nothing is other than the source itself, in expression.

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Madhavi dd

"Why am I here...?"

Because God is playing His Games, Self-Satisfying.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Irisha

Because God is playing His Games, Self-Satisfying.

And God is the "I" that is "here", and is not aware of his self delusion. There is no other God.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

And God is the "I" that is "here", and is not aware of his self delusion. There is no other God.

You forgot about Hamblor, the god of hamburgers.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

You forgot about Hamblor, the god of hamburgers.

Well, he's a fast food God and technically they really don't count, ......really.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Well, he's a fast food God and technically they really don't count, ......really.

You've angered Hamblor for the last time!