Science/math vs Spirituality

[DaveTyler]

This is a big issue for me, doctors and scientist mean everything is just a brain state, how does spirituality really fit into all this?

Can someone spiritually deep explain a little about why spirituality is more real than the scientists explaination of life?

[One]

Hello DaveTyler,

Why do you think science and math are not spiritual? If you see it as an either/or situation I think you'd find Einstein's concept of religion very interesting.

[DaveTyler]

Yeah I don't really know, I'm the type of person who get's interested in something, and dig myself so deep into the concept, it's sick.
Did Einstein believe in spirituality? purpose in life?

[One]

A quick way to get a general overview on Einstein's universe.
I'll try to avoid the cliche of turning this thread into a quote Einstein festival.

Personally, I think people are mislead by the conventional ideas of purpose and spirituality and consequently fail to recognize it.

I have no doubt I will do this injustice in description, but I'll give it a try anyway.

Even if you subscribe to science in it's entirety, the universe is a deeply mysterious place. For me science has only deepened the mystery, not destroyed it. Oddly many people claim otherwise. I think it must be a very shoddy mystery that suffers from examination.

It's easy to become desensitized because it's everywhere. Think of the medium you're in. Look down the length of your arm and tell me what concepts such as length or breadth really mean. Really think about it.

I've come to the point where I am repeatedly weirded out when I think about existence.

Edit* Just surprised myself again.

[DaveTyler]

Yeah me2, it's like I look at science just as definition, i love the mystery of life, I don't want to know everything.
Understanding and experiencing is too different things, humans are the once who's making all this concepts anyway.
Miracles happen too, so I mean nothing is sure... They can't measure and predict atoms either and a lot of scientists believe in god, so for me it's like I don't rely too much on science. I believe in deeper meaning of life, but ofcourse some science is common sense and is needed.

[starlet]

Why does everyone always make things "or"? Black or white? Male or female?

Yin and Yang = Universal balance. Black and white. Man and woman. Science and spirituality.

[stroodle]

Originally Posted by One

I've come to the point where I am repeatedly weirded out when I think about existence.

same here! everytime i go down that path in my mind i end up at WTF?! IMO, we're not equipped to get to the end of that path...if we did our brains would probably explode!

and about the thread topic.....they way i've been looking at life in that respect, is, science is the physical way we self-disect/examine 'life'

&

spirituality is the non-physical way we self-disect/examine 'life'

(probably pretty basic and obvious, but just thought i'd throw my thoughts out there )

[DaveTyler]

Yeah I know, it's always either or, I know I know, I'm just digging myself into a subject 'til I feel like it's the whole existance.
It's hard to explain how I analyze things, I always overthink them.
I need to be more spontaneous and live life as it comes instead of analyzing it so much I guess.

Imagine all the distress Einstein must of felt during his life, haha.

[Mark Lapierre]

AndyMartin has something to say that you might be interested in.

I firmly believe that, eventually, science will reveal many of the mysteries which spiritual beliefs attempt to explain. And I don't see greater scientific understanding as any less beautiful or worthwhile than spiritual faith.

Richard Feynmann said it well:

I have a friend who's an artist, and he sometimes takes a view which I don't agree with. He'll hold up a flower and say, "Look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. But then he'll say, "I, as an artist, can see how beautiful a flower is. But you, as a scientist, take it all apart and it becomes dull." I think he's kind of nutty. ... There are all kinds of interesting questions that come from a knowledge of science, which only adds to the excitement and mystery and awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.

And also:

Poets say science takes away from the beauty of the stars — mere globs of gas atoms. Nothing is 'mere'. I too can see the stars on a desert night, and feel them. But do I see less or more? The vastness of the heavens stretches my imagination — stuck on this carousel my little eye can catch one-million-year-old light. A vast pattern — of which I am a part... What is the pattern or the meaning or the why? It does not do harm to the mystery to know a little more about it. For far more marvelous is the truth than any artists of the past imagined it. Why do the poets of the present not speak of it? What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?

[DaveTyler]

I'm not too sure actually, I think there is a purpose we aren't meant to understand everything, I could be completely wrong though.
Everyone has their own opinion, which I think is great

But you seriously believe when you die, you die forever ?

[Mark Lapierre]

I don't have any firm belief about what happens when we die. But my lack of experience of anyone returning to tell me what happens afterwards leads me to believe that the process is irreversible.

That doesn't exclude the end of awareness at all levels (complete death, oblivion), or reincarnation, or Peter F. Hamilton's concept of the Beyond, what souls really are, and what it all really means. Hamilton's Night's Dawn series is a great illustration of the melding of science and spirituality, though being a sci-fi series the melding takes on scientific form. But again, that doesn't lesson the beauty (and possibility of horror) of spirituality.

But I don't think I'll find out until I die.

I could go on but I don't want to derail the thread

[DaveTyler]

Yeah I know man, it's like that question is the one question human's can't know.
Ofcourse there's all the reincarnation stuff, which has been proven in some sense, but you never know.
There's no point of knowing what'll happen when you die, before you actually know, which you can't know before you die:P

[Mark Lapierre]

Proof of reincarnation you say?

Actually, there would be a point to knowing what happens after death if what you do in life influences what happens next, and you can (and want to) direct that influence.

[Truefire]

Science and spirituality probably won't end up in the same place anytime soon. Any attempts to unite the two fall flat and are usually based on scientific misunderstanding by the spiritualists.

For example, discoveries in quantum theory had people thinking that science had finally found "the answer." In reality, they just found more math problems to finish. The Secret is way too into this IMO. I mean seriously, you get a couple physicists saying that matter and energy is the same, then you get the makers of The Secret to finish off the thought by saying "thoughts are energy, therefore thoughts ARE THINGS." There's nothing scientific about that. Its a logical flaw. I believe that the LOA works because I've seen it work, even if the laws of probability aren't working in my favor.

Or, I can remember a Buddhist book saying that the modern discoveries of atoms were in line with a quote from the Buddha. Buddha said that reality was a massive network of interconnected jewels(or something like that, I can't remember the quote and it was translation from a completely different language and culture). So some monks jumped on that fact and called atoms jewels. I'm not saying there's no truth there, just that you can't jump to foolish conclusions, just because it makes your beliefs more secure

Science is specifically a study of objective reality from an objective point of view. And it's oh so interesting...quarks, quasars, blackholes, singularity, space-time, time-travel, antimatter, quantum leaps, etc(mindblowingness )
Science says: X is so because of Y. A little bland but still interesting if thats your thing, just dont expect to discover the number 42 to pop into your calculations.

Spirituality is a study of reality from the first person perspective. Here you really get to make your own choice about how to explore your own version. There is no right or wrong answer. There is certainly no objective answer.
Spirituality says: I believe... [insert your definition based on your experience of reality, without subscribing to useless dogma or scientific misunderstanding]

[Truefire]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Proof of reincarnation you say?

Actually, there would be a point to knowing what happens after death if what you do in life influences what happens next, and you can (and want to) direct that influence.

I've noticed that every religion I've ever looked at has some theory of afterlife. For buddhists, it's reincarnation, either here on earth or in a heaven or hell realm, although you die there too and get reincarnated again, and again. For the whole "one-god" judeo crew, they get heaven and hell too. I think there's something there. All have this message: Live well and go to heaven/happyafterlife. Live a life full of regret, lust, and sin, go to hell. Thus what you do and how you view yourself at the the end of your life influences the next life. Death is probably one of those things you should be preparing for, just in case, you know..

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

I'm not too sure actually, I think there is a purpose we aren't meant to understand everything, I could be completely wrong though.
Everyone has their own opinion, which I think is great

But you seriously believe when you die, you die forever ?

To say there is no purpose seems like a divine cop out , are you just gonna give up trying to find out? You've got so many more years left on earth, but you're just gonna leave it at that? Thats no fun at all!

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Truefire

To say there is no purpose seems like a divine cop out , are you just gonna give up trying to find out? You've got so many more years left on earth, but you're just gonna leave it at that? Thats no fun at all!

On the other hand, saying there is a divine purpose allocated to you could also be seen as a cop out. You're denying responsibility for your own life. Creating a scapegoat for when things go wrong.

But the more beneficial point of view (and one that's not an intentional misinterpretation of someone else's view) from either side is: a) I have no divine purpose, I can choose what I want to do with my life, or b) I have something I am called to do, but how I do it is up to me, and I'll do it well, with divine guidance.

[Truefire]

I totally agree, it can go either way. You have to find your own balance and way, avoiding mindless acceptance of dogma, or fear of facing the unknown just because it frustrates you.

[ethereal]

Science and math is limited by definition, because it is based on an objective universe, which Steve has already bashed into our heads over and over that an objective universe doesn't exist

However, science can get close to explaining some spiritual concepts. Quantum mechanics, in particular Bohm's theory of implicate/explicate order, Morphogenetic/attractor fields, and Amit Goswami's Conciousness-based quantum mechanics model all show some promise in partially explaining Reality. Much of this was talked about in The Secret and What The Bleep, although in watered-down format.

Aaron's theories (PATHS and Quantum Physics and http://www.*******.org/library/loa-s...ty-diagram.pdf) seem to explain Reality the closest out of all the metaphysical/scientific models I've seen. And PATHS does work, which shows that this scientific model has practical validity.

However, in order to truly know God and experience spiritual truth directly, it is necessary to study pure spirituality, i.e. the Four Yogas, Advaita Vedanta, Buddhism, Zen, etc. I think science can help speed up the process (like PATHS has done for me), but ultimately it is only a supplement to actual spiritual work. Science will no longer exist when you die, but your soul and spiritual evolution will still be with you, so it is up to you what you want to focus on in this life Use all the tools you can, but ultimately it is spiritual evolution that will get you to the Kingdom of Heaven, and Beyond.

Food for thought.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ethereal

Science and math is limited by definition, because it is based on an objective universe

Subjective reality is also quite limited. But navel-gazing is probably the best way to convince oneself that one's own mind is unlimited.

Originally Posted by ethereal

Steve has already bashed into our heads over and over that an objective universe doesn't exist

Not to my knowledge. Where has he stated this?

[ethereal]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Subjective reality is also quite limited. But navel-gazing is probably the best way to convince oneself that one's own mind is unlimited.



Not to my knowledge. Where has he stated this?

Ok, I take it back. That an objective reality perspective seems more limited than a subjective reality perspective, and that he's having way more fun with SR

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ethereal

That an objective reality perspective seems more limited than a subjective reality perspective, and that he's having way more fun with SR

Subjectively speaking, right?

[Niki]

science = spirituality

because evertyhing that is science, exists for now. And visa versa for spirituality.

Silently they begin to melt together.

One thing, one belief, Just One.

The Science of Spirituality.