Views on alcohol and spirituality

[TaoPath]

Is it healthy for our spiritual development to continue using it?


Any thoughts or theories in this area ??

Thanks

[sorter]

Hmm. Not directly.
One can bring spirit to anything.
It can help with physical health. That comes in handy for being spiritual.

Although, drinking has inspired me to pray over the porcelain altar.
(hey, ya had to know someone would use that bad joke. Might as well be me.)

.

[SkylightMT]

My theory is that we give too much power to foods and substances, labeling them as good or bad with a whole lot being considered bad.

I have no doubt that if I were a very advanced spiritual being, I could partake of anything the earth I chose to live on has to offer, and it would be good. But I'm not nearly so advanced. I tend to believe many mass beliefs, even though I tell myself I don't.

So the answer is: if you think its a detriment to your spiritual journey, it is. If you think its a benefit to your spiritual journey, it is. There is plenty of room for both philosophies on this planet, so you can choose for yourself.

[TaoPath]

Agree with both points. Thanks guys.


On reflection however, I think my question was maybe directed to the effects it has on us in the moment

I try to live in the present as much as possible and alcohol tends to affect that aspect. There's usually a point after a beer or two that I go completely inwards and think about loads of stuff and then in the occasions that i get ‘tipsy' I start to 'not think' and become more expressive. This is because alcohol quietens down the ego and I guess...maybe I’m not being my true self when completely sober as I still care what others think where as under the influence I don't.

Anywho, now that I’m more aware of myself/thoughts/feelings, I’ve begun noticing this change. Not sure if I care or not to be honest just that I noticed it and wondered what others thought about their experiences ‘after a few glasses of x’ and their present awareness and true self

[ChrisGinsburg]

It's really all in your interpretation of alcohol and it's effects. Someone who has never heard of or tried alcohol before may have a beer and think he's just embarked on the most spiritual journey of his life.

[StacyT]

Originally Posted by TaoPath

Is it healthy for our spiritual development to continue using it?

Sure, as long as you do so consciously. I have close family members who are alcoholics and cannot drink consciously - in that case I would say no.

I like what SkylightMT said about us giving too much power to foods and substances...enjoy a beer or glass of wine, I don't think it will hurt you spiritually.

[neilpage]

Originally Posted by sorter

Hmm.



Although, drinking has inspired me to prey over the porcelain altar.
)

.

lol

[Mondrian]

Traditionally I've tended to think of alcohol as opposed to spirituality.

I think that has partly been because of mainstream cultural conditioning where mainstream spirituality and religion seem to say either no or in moderation to alcohol.

Also, a more niche spiritual group I was involved with in the past were largely fanatically opposed to alcohol.

The evidence of my own direct experiences of alcohol in the moment as it were has done little to asuage this view. Perhaps that would follow pretty automatically from the above accepted beliefs, thinking about it.

But recently I have been of the view that in as far as alcohol can loosen one up from both external and internal conditioning, oughts, ideas etc., it can be something that can help with ones psychological/spiritual development.

It seems to me that, in some ways, getting a bit drunk is a natural and healthy release of bottled up thoughts and feelings brought on by the compound of limitations we impose on ourselves as a society and personally. There does seem to be a need for many people to let of steam as it were, say, after a week at work.

Interesting question. And now I'm off to get another beer!

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by TaoPath

Is it healthy for our spiritual development to continue using it?


Any thoughts or theories in this area ??

Thanks

As my doctor said during my annual physical, everything done in moderation is ok.

I have written about this link in the past, it is my hunch that spiritual path travelers battle the addiction issue disproportionately. The folks who are after the secret for peace feel in them that there is such a state and they want to be there. Alcohol, other drugs, sex, etc. also get you there (if it is a positive trip), but have to pay for it with a hang-over. For what it is worth, I sometimes monitor which entries are most popular in my blog, the first is on addiction and how to battle it, the second is on sex.

All the best,

Zeitgeist

[Andrew Gubb]

If you want alcohol to help you develop spiritually, ask yourself what place it has in your experience, what it means for you, and what its use says about you. If you don't feel a positive resonance from what you observe, create a new place for alcohol in your life which elicits a positive and comfortable feeling.

For instance if alcohol use was an ignorance of what your body was telling you, start listening and heeding your body. If alcohol use was a way of hiding your true self who disliked alcohol, start being authentic. Etc.

I personally find the highest version of myself I've found so far uses alcohol very little (basically: a can of beer or a quarter of a cup of wine max once in a blue moon).

But of course it depends on where you are and what your soul is trying to express.

[Mato Kinze]

I saw this post as soon as it went up and I thought about this response for a while. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't bringing any of my personal biases into it and that I was looking at it from as open a perspective as possible.

Here's my thoughts for what they're worth:

Indigineous people throughout the world have used the Medicine of Plant Allies such as Peyote, Ayahusca and others for millenia in order to facilitate a perspective on this experience that is otherwise harder to come by.

Alcohol is no different than Ayahusca except in the power of its Medicine. Neither exist in nature and both require Man to 'create' them.

I suspect that one whose Intention is to use Alcohol in a Sacred way could do so, but I also suspect that the Medicine one may gain from that could be much more effectively gathered another way - a way without the inherent danger of addiction or misinterpretation.

But then, I'm not a fan of Plant Allies anyway, so take my opinion with whatever grain of salt you deem appropriate.

[royster]

All very good responses.
My two cents, as an alcoholic in recovery~I am sorry for the damage I did during my drinking career, but I am very grateful for what I learned, and what it has lead me to.

Alcohol should be viewed with great caution as its properties are deceptive.

Alcoholism-it's more than you think

[reiki717]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

As my doctor said during my annual physical, everything done in moderation is ok.

I have written about this link in the past, it is my hunch that spiritual path travelers battle the addiction issue disproportionately. The folks who are after the secret for peace feel in them that there is such a state and they want to be there. Alcohol, other drugs, sex, etc. also get you there (if it is a positive trip), but have to pay for it with a hang-over. For what it is worth, I sometimes monitor which entries are most popular in my blog, the first is on addiction and how to battle it, the second is on sex.

All the best,

Zeitgeist

What's your URL? I'd be interested in reading your articles.

[Jaiysun4]

I have a negative view of alcohol in relation to spirituality. Not that you can't have the odd drink without any bad effects, just that it has the potential to be incredibly harmful and often is, in many people's lives.

I see alcohol as kind of a false promise. If you attach to it and think "I need a drink to relax after work," then it will feel like you can't properly relax unless you have a drink. Which is giving your power away. Same for "I can't socialise and have such a good time unless I drink." Maybe if you tried thinking you can, and went out and stuck at it, you would!

Every time i drink i convince myself of how great it will be, and sure I have a good time. But at the end of the day I always wonder if the reasons I gave myself were ever valid, and to be honest I'd say ideally one wouldn't need to drink to improve one's mental state.

And so that would entail not drinking at all. If you drank to purposefully decrease your own mental state, then you've got a problem. And if you drink to increase your mental state, then you potentially have a - depending on the usage - problem. :eek.

Not to say I wont have a beer this weekend though. Just keep it limited and don't get wasted often at all. Then you should be a ok, no point worrying about a beer every now and then!

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by reiki717

What's your URL? I'd be interested in reading your articles.

Thank you for your interest: the one on addiction ...

Reflections: J. Krishnamurti on Addiction

the one on sex ...

Reflections: Sexual Fantasies, Sex, Ego and Spirituality

and a general link ...

Reflections

All the best,

Zeitgeist

[old dead wood]

My dad was an alcoholic. I was not close, kind of "averse" to him. I can still imagine his breath, his alcoholic states in the family, and I wonder what really went on with him. I drank till about 35 years old, and was always interested in Buddhist meditation, then had a major breakdown / depressive episode where I couldn't even touch the stuff and valued my sober sanity over the panic and despair: a blessing in disguise. I now hold a "grudge" against alcohol for, because of the alcoholic high, it made me think things were ok about my life (career, etc.) and they WEREN'T. It made me NOT true to myself or my desires and plans. I have enough trouble now SOBER learning how to sit in meditation and be mindful and somewhat intelligent about life. The mixing of the alcohol and then other days trying to meditate may have pre-disposed me to bad meditation results=depression.

[TaoPath]

Thanks everyone for contributing and giving me your insights, views and stories dealing with this issue. It has definitely got me thinking about the many aspects of this and the potential path it could lead to.

About me: I’m 25 and live in the UK where our drinking culture is messed up to put it lightly. Binge drinking and getting drunk is everyone’s goal when they go out, which amazes me. I go out, see friends and have fun, yet at the same time I get in this little ‘bubble’ and drinking continues throughout the night, leading me to get drunk. This is the only aspect which I have a problem with: Getting drunk

Awareness of this ‘bubble’ is a great realisation for me…
I think awareness of the ‘reality’ I’m stepping into when I go out to bars and nightclubs is important now and not to buy into it.

These types of places promote that kind of drinking behaviour (getting drunk, spend more) and even me thinking about this now gives me more power over them on some level. I can stop drinking anytime I choose to and avoid getting drunk because I live my own reality not ‘theirs’.

Realising that I’m stepping into a false ‘reality’ when I go to these places is awesome. Having the power to choose if I drink at all, or stopping to avoid getting drunk is going to be fun!

Come to think about, beer itself is a false 'reality' which i'm buying into on some level..hmmmm

Anywho, this is the first stage of this process of all this so I’ll see how it goes over the festive period


Side note:
I remember reading somewhere that people get drunk because it creates the only time in their lives when they are present and in the moment and not in the head. Instead of truly finding peace with themselves they need this substance to create that good feeling and create a detachment from their ego for a little while. This apparently is why it’s so popular in mainstream society. It’s a shame that they don’t realise they can have that feeling all the time

[Mondrian]

I'm actually concerned that I could become an alcoholic and get into big trouble with alcohol. I'm going to come out with a few more different thoughts about it.

I see a few people who I take to be alcoholics around a few of the bars in the place where I live. One of the things I think is that rather than having a problem, they show the superficiality of the lives of those who don't drink so heavily. I see it this way because they show they can do all the things everyone else is doing and drink heavily: the non-alcoholics arn't doing anything better. Having said that, I don't really know what's going on in all these people's lives, especially their inner lives.

A few weeks ago I felt I had a bit of a breakthrough psychologically where I saw that the general thoughts and ideas that I had previously been more attached to were now having less of a grip of me. I felt like I was seeing things more like they really were. 'Trouble' was that what I seemed to have discovered was a kind of nothingness or the absence of attachment to thought or feelings, whereas what I had been looking was definitely a 'something'. From feeling the need to have something I have felt more inclined to drink.

From feeling that different thoughts and ideas I had no longer held as true for me I also thought that it didn't matter so much whether I drank or not.

I read the JK on addiction piece on Zeitgeist's blog. A thing that struck me was that addiction or any psychological trait will get stronger if it is fought with. I'm not sure how to handle things I don't want in my life such as troublesome alcoholism because the only way I can see is to fight it. If fighting it makes it worse then the alternative might be just to go with it but in that case I could become an alcoholic as well.

Now, that 'middle ground' of not going against or with the thing but rather observing it or some such still seems to me to fall into the fighting it category. That is, by saying, okay I will observe this then, one is identifying it as a problem that one wants to eliminate and even though one might try just to observe, most of this effort will be a kind of fighting.

Some of this post, for me, relates to the What are the Biggies thread, in the question of how to deal with things we don't want in the moment a it were.

My earlier post in this thread was quite casual about alcohol but when I read some of the things royster says (followed the link) and obviously see the destruction in society generally tht is associated with alcohol, I view the matter with real seriousness. Mybe alcohol is something that we should just not mess with even if this is done through fighting it. But if fighting it makes it stronger, then ....?

[TaoPath]

Some new thoughts:

Alcohol in general, especially red wine, is good for our bodies so I see no need to cut it out of my life completely

By focusing on this area, I will never be an alcoholic; I am way too aware of my life now, one that I love and respect my body. By creating an enemy out it, in my opinion, defeats the purpose. Our Ego is attached to excess and over indulgence. This is my focus. I will begin to destroy that aspect of my ego by moderating and controlling when to stop. This alone will ensure I have complete control over my life and will have a knock on effect in all other areas.

The Ego wants excess and over –indulgence, so I will take it away and fun doing so

This is what I needed to learn from asking my question at the beginning.

It’s said over and over that Moderation is Key for those things that we enjoy, otherwise they lose their value and enjoyment. More importantly, it shows the Ego who’s in control of who

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

I see a few people who I take to be alcoholics around a few of the bars in the place where I live. One of the things I think is that rather than having a problem, they show the superficiality of the lives of those who don't drink so heavily. I see it this way because they show they can do all the things everyone else is doing and drink heavily: the non-alcoholics arn't doing anything better. Having said that, I don't really know what's going on in all these people's lives, especially their inner lives.

Quite likely, you don't know. From my experience with alcohol addiction and substance abuse, there are functional and nonfunctional alcoholics. Usually an alcoholic will pass through the stages where initially they can hold it together but slowly they lose everything. Everyone they love leaves them because they act like an ass at random intervals, they usually have slowly escalating problems at work and interacting with other people who do not also drink heavily.

Then reality becomes skewed. You start to think that everyone is a drinker, because you purposely surround yourself with other people who indulge in the same vice. You think you have it together, but everything slips away.

The saddest thing about alcoholism, to me, is that most alcoholics don't bother to recover until the consequences they face are truly terrible. At the end of the day, it's a cumulative effect and most don't realize how destructive alcohol can be until it's too late. Then you just have to learn how to live with what you lost, make amends, and move forward as best you can.

I think alcoholics have the most superficial experience because they don't truly participate in their lives. They drink and are hungover. Repeat ad nauseum. That's not living, that's existing and numbing yourself. Then you wake up one day and realize you wasted your life.

[royster]

I offer my experience as one who has been full circle.

And it is not my intention to "convert" anyone to AA, though I strongly suggest ALL look into the 12 steps, because they are spiritually-based. You'll find that the 12-steps are a divine pattern in all things. Interesting and true!

As far as the "not fighting" aspect: we are taught that we are powerless over alcohol. On Steve Pavlina's forum, this is like cussing. But when it comes to alcohol, this was the only avenue toward recovery left unexplored, and it turns out it worked. Admitting powerlessness in ALL situations isn't the point; in alcohol, if you have allowed it to re-wire you, then you're powerless. And alcohol most definitely re-wires you, physically and mentally. It slowly takes over your thought process. If you re-read those posts above, you see the control alcohol has on thought-process. It's very subtle, and as Laks points out, you don't realise it until it's too late.

My last drinking bout is one I cannot share in many AA meetings, because my spirit guides INSISTED I go get a 12-pack of beer and drink it. I fought this...I can't believe my Higher Power would suggest this!...but finally I did. And I went through the drinking process WITH SPIRIT GUIDES telling me what was occurring, when. It was very revealing.

Of course, few would deliberately sit and drink to see the affects. After a certain time, the focus would be highjacked and the person would just end up drunk. And those are SPECIFICALLY the areas where alcohol makes its changes on the phsyche, then evaporates without leaving a trace. It sets up transmitting stations where a relay of electrical instructions are broadcast, on the alcohol frequency. It relaxes certain nerves to the point that they connect...they would never connect on normal conditions...and thus we get some weird signals. Our minds and bodies remember this, and no amount of denial changes the fact that we've been re-wired. Only absolute honesty within ourselves really starts undoing the damage.

The occassional glass of wine is terrific...if you can do that. But the alcoholic cannot have that first drink because it sets off a chain reaction in the body that you can't control. Why? Because alcohol has set up shop in your body. YOWZA!!

[royster]

I wish to add that I got into recovery BEFORE a major amount of damage had been done to my life. I often say "Love retrieved me" because it's true: I didn't care much about myself, but my partner, Janice, is the embodiment of Love, and she deserved a lot better than I was treating her during drinking spells that got worse and worse and uglier in content. I realised it would not be long before physical abuse started. I HAD to draw the line there, because I was turning into the alcoholic step-father who ruined my family's life.

I average at least one meeting a week...some need more...but in those meetings you are in a group where you can share things no one else will understand or accept. It's called a "fellowship" and it is indeed that. The meetings remind us of why we stopped drinking; we hear the horror stories from newcomers and old timers alike, and the damages are always the same; unnecessary. And our bodies are healing. With that comes a clearer outlook of life, and a chance to align ourselves with better existing.

As opposed to a bar, where conditions deteriorate, the conversations are shallow, and at some point, you're operating on sheer carbohydrates, all the while denying your body the nutrients and proper rest it asks for, but never gets. The soul is completely forgotten, unless it happens to be a topic worth slurring about until the next subject floats past.

Janice has told me how close she was to leaving me, and also told me how deeply my drinking affected her...that the sound of an aluminum can opening still sets her nerves on end. Just the sound of the can opening. THAT's part of the damage I did to others. I am very grateful Grace directed me toward the Light. In exchange, I share my experience, and walk the talk.

[sorter]

My experience:
I've had about one or two drinks daily for many years.
I use drinking to relax and to celebrate the end of a good day. That's sort of spiritual.
I'm convinced if I didn't drink at all, my tension would rise to an unhealthy level.
Of course, it would be better if I used yoga or meditation to relax but I'm lazy.

For me, alcohol is mildly addicting.
Years ago, I drank to excess (a gallon of whiskey in a week) but I also spent most days at the gym.
Seeing the bottles that added up to a gallon by my trashcan shocked me so I cut down, but I didn't feel bad at all.


I'm very curious about why I can drink and others can't without it adversely affecting their lives.

Is it genetic? I don't have any Irish or American Indian heritage that I know of (assuming those stereotypes are true to any degree).

Is it how one reacts to the physical changes caused by alcohol?
"Of course, few would deliberately sit and drink to see the affects."
That's an interesting line. I always do. And I can tell when the next drink will give me a headache the next day so I stop.
"As far as the 'not fighting' aspect: we are taught that we are powerless over alcohol."
But doesn't that make you powerful enough to stop drinking?
I wonder if thinking you're powerless is more realistic than thinking you can "handle" drinking.
I know I'm powerless to what alcohol will do to me.
I suppose my inner glutton whines when I stop drinking but it doesn't fight me too much.
I promise to indulge it some other time.

I like to think there is a cognitive way that anyone can use to drink in any manor they want. We just haven't found it yet.
But I certainly don't know. Not drinking at all might be best for some people regardless of their psychology.

.

[royster]

Wonderful musings, sorter.

It is said that there as many types of alcoholics as there are alcoholics. Indeed, there are many influences to each individual. That is why one-size DOESN'T fit all. There are basic guide-lines we can use, and we adapt to what works for us.

Stubborn-headed as I am, it was very difficult to claim defeat against alcohol. But it looks funny, me laying there in the ring, one boxing glove rolling toward the edge, raising my head up to get smacked down again. It bores the audience after a while.

I have an admiration for those who can drink responsibly. I know I cannot. I also support those who take the journey to sobriety, because I know what it is, and I deal with it on a daily basis. For me, it was a close call, really; any split-second event could have perminently ruined my life, and that of others. I am grateful, again, for the Grace I have recieved.

And I really hated laying there getting beat up by boo's. [booze]

[TaoPath]

Thanks for sharing again Royster. Taking into account your perspective on this issue, I am making sure that this 'body re-wire' is not going to happen to me in the first place. I think it’s also an ego thing as well to some extent so I’m very aware of this current attachment.

Just out of curiosity, where did get that ‘body re-wire’ information?

I’m an ex-smoker (both cigarettes and weed) and I always wonder if I did weed again (I was psychologically addicted for 9 years), what would happen? Then again, I’ve associated so much pain and disgust with it, I wouldn’t even want too

I may create this association with 'being drunk' making my ego work with me so to speak....

[TaoPath]

I should note, that I can have a beer easily at home and stop, its just at weekends when out and about that things change I sometimes get drunk.

I also hate the amount I spend on beer during weekends in general, with nothing to show for it but 'another night out'. I want to use this extra money for great expereinces such as skydiving! Maybe thats the real reason for cutting back

[sorter]

Originally Posted by royster

Stubborn-headed as I am, it was very difficult to claim defeat against alcohol. But it looks funny, me laying there in the ring, one boxing glove rolling toward the edge, raising my head up to get smacked down again. It bores the audience after a while.

And I really hated laying there getting beat up by boo's. [booze]

Love the imagery.
That's how I feel about caffeine.



.

[royster]

Just out of curiosity, where did [you] get that ‘body re-wire’ information?

It is partly scientific fact, and some of it was gleaned by listening to my life influences. I'm confident that the reason my Guides had me drink that last time was to show me exactly the sequence of events. At one point, it was stunning to "see" the convergence of strategic chaos ready to pounce...but of course, it couldn't, because for once, I was watching.

The Guides also assured me before going into this "experiment" that I would "probably never drink again". I haven't, and the thought of drinking has a negative reaction, which helps me not go through the rosey path to a binge. I also know that I can't "un-wire" the paths alcohol etched, but I CAN re-wire around them. And ascension is all about re-wiring.

[royster]

Here's something necessary to add:

Increasingly I would wake up having wet the bed. When you pass out with a gallon of beer in you, it has to go somewhere. I gradually accepted this consequence of my drinking. So I was accepting unacceptable behavior in consideration for my drinking.

Then there were the days coming out of a binge, with vomiting, frayed nerves and manufacturing of excuses. ALL in consideration for drinking.

Then I'd go out the car and find all the neglect I had left, unattended because I gave my time to drinking.

When you start a running list of the provisions you make for drinking, a sane mind starts to faint. The food that got wasted, the chores left undone, the pissy clothes that need to be washed...it goes on and on, and continued use does NOT improve anything except the cunning excuses.

When you eliminate all that extra work and mental agony from your work schedule, it's revealing the things you get done, and how your environment improves because you're not neglecting it any more. And your self-esteem isn't eroded from smelling like piss, vomit and beer.

[sorter]

Originally Posted by royster

It is said that there as many types of alcoholics as there are alcoholics.

True and I sometimes ponder the definition.
I'm convinced my drinking is physically healthy for me so it doesn't adversely affect my life. So therefore I'm not an alcoholic.

Although, having a couple of drinks every other day would fulfill my relaxation needs but I have a hard time doing that.
By that measure, I'm a alcoholic.

.