Self destruction

[smilingaway]

Why do human beings self destruct? Smoking causes 400,000 deaths a year and this is the number one preventable death in America. From alcohol, to illegal and legal drugs, depression and mental illness, to obesity there is self destruction all over.

Why do individuals continue to drink if it makes them ill? Nearly every person I have known as done this and most continue. A very subtle action but is it remnant of something deeper?

What do you think?

[alexplatups]

...is some ways it is resistance to responsibility!

...in some ways it is the death-urge, which is basically laziness/fear!

...in some ways it is not being honest with ourselves!

...in some ways it is the love of comfort, and the total resistence to
delaying gratification.

...but at the core, it is the false-self fighting to stay alive, and the sources
that it uses to accomplish this are infinite.

...it can be drugs, alcohol, food, whatever, as long as it takes the person's
attention from the one devastating fact...that there is no "self."

...in the thread below, I explain how the two primary false assumptions
put humanity on the road of suffering and struggle. And I'm not trying to
advertise that thread, it's just I don't want to write all that information
over and over, but what I can do is post it here in a quote:

Originally Posted by alexplatups

...to start out, I want to say that as soon as we accept or are programmed with
these two assumptions, we step into a never-ending struggle in our lives.
These are the two core assumptions that we don't notice because they are
accepted as facts in our society/culture, and they are in everyone's internal
dialogue without exception by the time they are teenagers, and usually much
sooner than that. To uncover these false assumptions takes brutal honesty, and
this is not something that the majority of people are ready to take on as a principle
and a moment-to-moment practice.

...this is mostly because HONESTY points at what is false in us, and since our false-self
wants to survive, honesty is usually put on the back-burner, and then forgotten!

...we also don't notice that these two false cultural assumptions are the SOURCE of our
desires to achieve happiness and simultaneously the reasons we fail to achieve happiness!!!

...anyway, here are the TWO FALSE ASSUMPTIONS programmed into us by our culture/society:

...and I do want to point out that these two false assumptions bind us all and are as common
and natural to us as the air we breathe!!!

The first "biggie" is that knowing is good, not-knowing is bad. In other words
one has to accumulate knowledge, and this is why we go to kindergarden,
then school, and then maybe to college, university, etc...and why the
majority of people are in this forum...seaching for "more" knowledge, and some are
also here to share the knowledge they believe and assume that they "know."

...this assumption is false...we don't know anything, we only believe and assume!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...VERY IMPORTANT: please note how the first false assumptions NATURALLY flows
into the second false assumption, and by this I mean if we didn't have the false
assumption that knowing is good, we wouldn't attempt so hard to create the false-self!!!

...this is why the first sin in the Bible is Eve/Adam eating from the tree of KNOWLEDGE
of good and evil. And obviously the second sin is them creating their false-self.

...before doing that, they were simply consciousness/being, and were in their original,
authentic state, but as soon as they assumed and believed in knowledge and created
their false-selves...all ♥♥♥♥♥ broke loose, and no one has even attempted to stop this
as we can all clearly see !!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the second biggie is that there is a self and that we "know" what this "self" is,
which is basically the consequence of the first. And if we don't know what
this self is, then there are many folks and organizations in our culture/society
that are always ready to let us choose from a wide variety of beliefs and
assumptions, and using these, then we can go ahead and create our "false-self."

These two FALSE assumptions are the reason for the creation of the false-self,
which is basically the attachments and identifications with certain beliefs
and assumptions. The most basic beliefs/assumptions are programmed into
us from the time we are born, and we don't even notice them.

...they appear to us as our daily reality.

These two assumptions create the five primary states/effects that we as human beings live with:

1) emptiness

2) self-doubt

3) feeling trapped

4) suffering

5) struggle

The degree to which these effects are felt/perceived by each human being
differs, but they are all present if we are living as a "false-self."

...I mean let's be real here folks, raise your hand if you want to be considered
ignorant, not-knowing anything, and not knowing who you are?

...this is obviously what we try to AVOID and HIDE from ourselves, and if we think
we don't know anything and don't know who we are, we will do everything in our
power to make it look like we do, at least in front of other people.

...The attempt to live as a human being that is in the "know" and that has a
very concrete understanding of your "self" goes against your true nature, who
you are at the "core" and obviously has serious consequences.

These two assumptions are the primary reasons for the "human condition" and
for the majority of our suffering and struggle. All the problems that people are
searching answers for in this forum and generally in life can be found in the fact
that they are living their life believing that these two assumption are TRUE, while
in reality they are FALSE.

As I have written in many posts, our primary state is the state of not-knowing
and no-self, it is a state of "clear space" or a "blank canvas."

Everything else...EVERYTHING...is secondary, and is an "add-on."

This is why it is quite interesting for me to read what many people on these
forums write about objective and subjective reality, because they are not
primary, they are secondary, and are not authentic, honest, real, true.

...all beliefs and assumptions are concepts...and are bs!

...without not-knowing, nothing, infinity, a state of no beginning, and no end,
objective reality and subjective reality could not exist.

...as human beings we don't "know" anything as it is for-itself or as-itself, all
we perceive is objects or concepts as they relate to our false self.

...we interpret any object or concept and using the concepts in our mind
we automatically give meaning to this object or concept and then have an
emotional-charge which tells us how to react to this object or concept.

...this all happens at light-speed, and to us is what we call reality. So it
doesn't matter if you call it objective or subjective, it is all perceived through
a conceptual lens.

...as a false-self one lives in a 100% conceptual world in the self-mind, and
everything one perceives is perceived through a filter of beliefs, assumptions, which are basically all concepts.

...these two big and false cultural assumptions, are the foundation of the
human condition, and the consequences that follow once these assumptions
are accepted (and this happens automatically when we are growing up)
are emptiness, self-doubt, feeling trapped, suffering, and a never-ending struggle.

This is so obvious it's not even funny, if you just contemplate on how you
went from being a newborn baby to a 15-year-old teenager.

By this time, every human being is successfully programmed, and from then
he/she continues to live as this programmed "false-self" and continues to do
everything possible to make sure this "false-self" survives at all costs.

It is EXACTLY like a mouse running in a wheel chasing a piece of cheese,
and never, ever getting it. So it just keeps running after this cheese until
it dies of old age, or some "circumstance" happens and it dies because of
this circumstance.

This programming turns a person into a mouse, puts him in a cage, puts him
on the wheel, and provides the cheese (desires) after which the mouse will
keep running after non-stop.

...and it is "impossible" to get this cheese, because as soon as you get what
you want or desire, a NEW cheese appears that you start running after

...to see these assumptions you have to be ruthlessly honest with yourself

YouTube - ChengHsin's Channel

...in this video this person, who is an expert at martial arts explains what
honesty is and why it is so important as a practice and principle.

...without being completely honest with yourself, and becoming aware of the
two false assumptions, and realizing that you really don't know anything and
that there is no "self" -- you will simply continue to react and will continue to
manifest effects and will continue to run on the wheel chasing the cheese!

...so say "cheese" and then start being as honest as you can with yourself!

...if you don't then the suffering and the struggle will continue for the rest of your
life, and no beliefs/assumptions or any other kind of "concept/know-ledge" will help you!!!

...consiousness/being is what is, the sick false-self is what isn't, and it simply
wants to stay alive as long as it possibly can, because otherwise it will perish,
and since it knows that the body is not itself, it doesn't mind that death
might be the consequence of these actions.

...the sick false-self is lazy, and will do whatever it has to to survive, and
this is why a person keeps doing things that are damaging to himself.

...lies and assumptions based on lies and assumptions are the root of all suffering in humanity!

...it is all layers upon layers of lies and assumptions, and beneath all of this is our being!

...since being already is, it doesn't really care one way or the other, because it is infinite
it does not have to persist and try to survive...but the sick-egoic-false-self DOES !!!

[stealth87]

Addictions help us cover up what we don't want to face. At the core, it's really scary to face all the uncomfortable emotions and inner turmoil.

I agree with what alex said, all these addictions serve as a pleasure hit only to cover up that there is no "self". The "self" resorts to addictions for it's survival. It seeks for good feelings and the resistance of pain.

Think about it. Why is there a need to get smashed or get high if "you" are happy and at ease with your "self"?

Well, there is no "self".

[sorter]

Why is the worst question to ask.
In literal terms it can't be answered. Why do birds fly? How would I know, they just do.
And you're really asking something else i.e. what or how.

I couldn't care less why I engage in my self-destructive behavior.
I care about what can help me manage it.

alexplatups. I agree with your post. It is well thought out. I'd like to comment on one portion:
"...we interpret any object or concept and using the concepts in our mind
we automatically give meaning to this object or concept and then have an
emotional-charge which tells us how to react to this object or concept."

In terms of sensory perception, we first sense,
our autonomic nervous system decides to react with the fight or flight response or not,
we have an emotional response,
then we think about what just happened.
That's why you can be startled, then be angry, all before you know what startled you.
Our sense sequence is the reptilian mind, then mammalian mind, then the thinking mind.

Yes, you can have and emotional response to a thought, but I don't think that happens as much as the reverse,
and I don't think that sequence contributes to self-destructive behavior.

However, although I agree with your post, I don't really know how to use it to manage my self-destructive behavior.

Here's what helps me. It's a theory or viewpoint.
Civilization is a recent development in human history.
As hunter-gatherers we faced much more danger and pain than we do now.
That experience is encoded in our genes and memes. We're accustomed to it and expect it.
Since civilization doesn't have so much danger and pain, we tend to create it.
Our primary addiction is an addiction to adrenalin.
We create drama when there is no need. We ingest substances that make us feel bad. It lets us feel alive.
Feeling bad is better than feeling nothing.

How does that viewpoint help?
Now when I feel the impulse toward destructive behavior,
I think about healthier ways to get my adrenalin up.
And, most importantly, I don't beat myself up for having self-destructive impulses.

.

[alexplatups]

Originally Posted by sorter

alexplatups. I agree with your post. It is well thought out. I'd like to comment on one portion:
"...we interpret any object or concept and using the concepts in our mind
we automatically give meaning to this object or concept and then have an
emotional-charge which tells us how to react to this object or concept."

In terms of sensory perception, we first sense,
our autonomic nervous system decides to react with the fight or flight response or not,
we have an emotional response,
then we think about what just happened.
That's why you can be startled, then be angry, all before you know what startled you.
Our sense sequence is the reptilian mind, then mammalian mind, then the thinking mind.

Yes, you can have and emotional response to a thought, but I don't think that happens as much as the reverse,
and I don't think that sequence contributes to self-destructive behavior.

object-dog, our perception interprets that it is a pug, a funny cute dog,
and gives it a meaning that it is not dangerous, and send an emotional-charge
for us to play with it, so we do.

object-dog, our perception interprets that it is a pit-bull, without an owner,
and without a collar/leash and running toward us, and gives it a meaning
that it's very likely going to bite us and it will be painful, and sends as
emotional-charge...to get the ♥♥♥♥♥ out of there.

what you think next will all depend on the next interpretation of the next
moment and so on, but this interpretation-meaning-emotional/charge
structure is always used by our perception, over and over, non-stop.

every present moment we are doing this, perceiving everything in relation
to who we are as a "self-concept."

the destructive behavior comes from false beliefs and assumptions, not
from our perceptions, which is simply a "self-survival-mechanism."

However, although I agree with your post, I don't really know how to use it to manage my self-destructive behavior.

Here's what helps me. It's a theory or viewpoint.
Civilization is a recent development in human history.
As hunter-gatherers we faced much more danger and pain than we do now.
That experience is encoded in our genes and memes. We're accustomed to it and expect it.
Since civilization doesn't have so much danger and pain, we tend to create it.
Our primary addiction is an addiction to adrenalin.
We create drama when there is no need. We ingest substances that make us feel bad. It lets us feel alive.
Feeling bad is better than feeling nothing.

How does that viewpoint help?
Now when I feel the impulse toward destructive behavior,
I think about healthier ways to get my adrenalin up.
And, most importantly, I don't beat myself up for having self-destructive impulses.

...the past is a concept, all that matters is the present moment.

...my post is pointing toward the interesting thing called false beliefs
and assumptions on which our society/culture is based on.

...if you live your life believing in these two false assumptions, there will
be consequences, some of them can be clearly seen in your post.

...everything you wrote is pretty much hearsay and assumptions, you
yourself have never directly experienced being a gatherer or hunter, or
ever experienced genes, adrenalin, etc.

...the root of all human problems, or what is called the human condition is
these two primary false assumptions. If you think you know something, and
you think that there is a "self" than you are living as a false-self, and there
will be serious consequences.

...this is why I posted a link to that video, where that person is talking
about the discipline of truth, and why it is important.

...these two false assumptions, allow an infinite layer of BS to grow on top
of who you are at the core. This core is what is there before the first
belief/assumption that you made in your life...it is pure being.

...everything else is an add-on, and thus secondary, and thus can't be
known...only believed and assumed !!!

...being is not-knowing...no-self...no-distinction, it is the real you, and one
with absolute consciousness.

...so my post can help you, if you see where it is pointing, and not the words
that are being written by me, because these words themselves are part of
the beliefs/assumptions that got us in so much trouble in the first place

[sorter]

Originally Posted by alexplatups

object-dog, our perception interprets that it is a pug, a funny cute dog,
and gives it a meaning that it is not dangerous, and send an emotional-charge
for us to play with it, so we do.

object-dog, our perception interprets that it is a pit-bull, without an owner,
and without a collar/leash and running toward us, and gives it a meaning
that it's very likely going to bite us and it will be painful, and sends as
emotional-charge...to get the ♥♥♥♥♥ out of there.

If you're referring to interpretation from your thinking mind (neocortex), you're incorrect.
The fight or flight response is clearly rooted in the reptilian brian (brainstem and cerebellum).
I don't know if there is empirical evidence on that but it is widely accepted.

Originally Posted by alexplatups

...so my post can help you, if you see where it is pointing, and not the words
that are being written by me, because these words themselves are part of
the beliefs/assumptions that got us in so much trouble in the first place

I don't clearly see what you are pointing to.
Don't take knowledge or a self concept too seriously?
I kinda already do that. But it's clear to me that my impulses don't give a damn about what I think.
They've never listened to me.
I tell them I feel great, and they look at me like I'm retarded.
I'm convinced that impulses have much more influence over self-destructive behavior than thoughts or beliefs.

But, no, I can't say that empirically.
I can say that view helps me.
I spent years spinning my wheels with affirmations that don't provide what I'm looking for - to resolve any conflict between impulses and beliefs.

I think that both of us are being equally presumptuous.
Maybe you agree with that, I can't tell. If you don't and want to argue facts, I would normally love to but I have to get back to work.

And my main emphasis is on what helps not what is "true".

BTW, thanks, this kind of exchange is why I'm addicted to this damn forum.

.

.

[alexplatups]

Originally Posted by sorter

If you're referring to the interpretation of your thinking mind (neocortex), you're incorrect.
The fight or flight response is clearly rooted in the reptilian brian (brainstem and cerebellum).
I don't know if there is empirical evidence on that but it is widely accepted.

sorter...I'm referring to things I can directly experience in the things I'm
writing to you, and not of beliefs, assumptions, or hearsay. I'm talking
about things I have directly experienced myself. I don't really care about
what is accepted, because as I wrote that the first false assumption is that
we know something. This is a cultural/societal assumption and it is totally
false, we can't know anything, we can only believe or assume.

We call it "knowing" but it is all conceptual...and thus is a belief/assumption.

I don't clearly see what you are pointing to.
Don't take knowledge or a self concept too seriously?
I kinda already do that. But it's clear to me that my impulses don't give a damn about what I think.
They've never listened to me.
I tell them I feel great, and they look at me like I'm retarded.
I'm convinced that impulses have much more influence over self-destructive behavior than thoughts or beliefs.

But, no, I can't say that empirically.
I can say that view helps me.
I spent years spinning my wheels with affirmations that don't provide what I'm looking for - to resolve any conflict between impulses and beliefs.

I think that both of us are being equally presumptuous.
Maybe you agree with that, I can't tell. If you don't and want to argue facts, I would normally love to but I have to get back to work.

And my main emphasis is on what helps not what is "true".

BTW, thanks, this kind of exchange is why I'm addicted to this damn forum.

...can you explain what you mean by impulses, and give a few examples.

really like this pic, and was the last on a shotgun shell?

[SlicK]

Because it makes you feel good NOW and it kills you LATER People look for such complicated answers. I want to ask the question, why people over-complicate things?

Drinking makes you feel good WHILE you drink and it makes you feel even better after you're a little drunk and then it gives you the illusion you feel very good after you're drunk and you feel bad hours later or the next day. Cigarettes make you feel good while you smoke. Drugs make you feel good while you use them. If all of these things would make you feel bad WHILE using them, almost nobody would do it.

People don't give a ♥♥♥♥♥ about what will happen 10 years from now, they care about what happens NOW!

[stealth87]

Originally Posted by sorter

If you're referring to the interpretation of your thinking mind (neocortex), you're incorrect.
The fight or flight response is clearly rooted in the reptilian brian (brainstem and cerebellum).
I don't know if there is empirical evidence on that but it is widely accepted.


I don't clearly see what you are pointing to.
Don't take knowledge or a self concept too seriously?
I kinda already do that. But it's clear to me that my impulses don't give a damn about what I think.
They've never listened to me.
I tell them I feel great, and they look at me like I'm retarded.
I'm convinced that impulses have much more influence over self-destructive behavior than thoughts or beliefs.

So is this to say that 'you' are not your impulses? Doesn't this mean that 'you' are separate from the impulses, since you can't control them?

'You' can't control every single impulse just like 'you' can't control every single thought. 'You' can't stop the cessation of thoughts by command.

Something worth considering is if 'you' are actually thinking at all. Or whether the thought of 'you' arises by thinking.

Everything in nature flows, including impulses, but the 'self' claims to be the cause, when it isn't. It's just a product of thinking.

But, no, I can't say that empirically.
I can say that view helps me.
I spent years spinning my wheels with affirmations that don't provide what I'm looking for - to resolve any conflict between impulses and beliefs.

I think that both of us are being equally presumptuous.
Maybe you agree with that, I can't tell. If you don't and want to argue facts, I would normally love to but I have to get back to work.

And my main emphasis is on what helps not what is "true".

BTW, thanks, this kind of exchange is why I'm addicted to this damn forum.

.

Affirmations won't help because 'you' don't control the impulses. There is no 'man' or 'self' behind the curtains running the show.

[sorter]

Originally Posted by stealth87

So is this to say that 'you' are not your impulses? Doesn't this mean that 'you' are separate from the impulses, since you can't control them?

'You' can't control every single impulse just like 'you' can't control every single thought. 'You' can't stop the cessation of thoughts by command.

Something worth considering is if 'you' are actually thinking at all. Or whether the thought of 'you' arises by thinking.

Everything in nature flows, including impulses, but the 'self' claims to be the cause, when it isn't. It's just a product of thinking.

Affirmations won't help because 'you' don't control the impulses. There is no 'man' or 'self' behind the curtains running the show.

I'm only trying to say what helps.

I can only really say it helps me,
but if you people no what's good for you,
you'll hang on my every word.

Whether or not my impulses are part of me is semantics, I think (get it, ha ha).
I believe that because I feel that belief helps.
If a different belief helped, I'd believe that.

You can't control impulses but you can stop fighting them.
For my money, that's enough.

.

[Lioness]

Originally Posted by SlicK

Because it makes you feel good NOW and it kills you LATER

Yes it can be that simple. However, I think some people are also genetically predisposed to alcoholism (it tends to run in families) and some emotionally chemically imbalanced people self-medicate with illegal drugs. Some say they never felt good or even "normal" in their lives until they tried drugs/alcohol.

If you 've ever seen the show "Intervention", there was almost always a trigger: a family tragedy, or childhood trauma that started the person on drugs.

With so much pain in life, it's a wonder more people don't drink, drug, gamble, eat and shop to excess to relieve the pain.

The other puzzling thing is, when the consequences of addiction start to outweigh the pleasure of intoxication, why is it still so difficult to quit?

[sorter]

Originally Posted by alexplatups

...can you explain what you mean by impulses, and give a few examples.

Anything that can be attributed to the autonomic nervous system.
hunger, sex, fight-flight response, anxiety, relaxation, boredom, lots more.

For this thread mostly anxiety and hunger.
Drinking, smoking, overeating etc. relieve anxiety temporarily.
I'm not including thoughts that are a response to autonomic impules.

Originally Posted by alexplatups

really like this pic, and was the last on a shotgun shell?

Thanks. Many of my pics are from Omega Institute in upstate NY.
Wellness - Personal Growth and Mind, Body, Spirit - Omega Institute
I love to hang out there. Most of the workshops are too
navel ponderous for me but I love the food and the grounds.
The shotgun shell must of been from one of the locals.

.

[alexplatups]

sorter...if you want, check out the following thread and if you have more
things you would like to discuss, make sure to post your comments, opinions,
or whatever in there.

Alexplatups: What are the biggies?

since the OP is not posting, I don't see much sense in posting in this thread,
because what he wrote is more like self-survival, and not destruction.