I'm right and you're (fill in the blank)
Something that catches my eye while reading through many of the threads on this forum is the absolute certainty by some posters that they are the epitome of correct information, and anyone who disagrees with them is either a) stupid, b) misinformed, c) going straight to hell, or d) all of the above.
It's painful to read those responses. It really is, because it shows how some people shut down and will not accept any opinion other than their own. And you know what? There are over 6 billion different opinions in the world on any topic you can think of. That makes for a wide range of right and wrong.
Shades of gray, people. Lots and lots of shades of gray. In other words, nothing is as black and white as it may seem.
I know its annoying as hell, I mean why can't people just agree with me, after all as far as I am concerned I am second only to the bible, and sometimes I question the validity of the bible.
Oh well, we live and hope others learn.
I would rewrite your threat a little ...
You are right and I am silent ...
I have followed your posts. but i don't think bolded lines were your words. After that was completely from your heart.
The Truth is that there is Only One I.
I is always right.
I is always wrong.
This proves that I is The One and Only Paradox.
CR, opinions are like buttholes. Everyone has one, and they are usually full of crap.
Anyways, when someone writes a response like that it's more about them than the person they are responding to. Lately I am starting to realize that everyone is talking to themselves talking to projections of other people who are also talking to themselves talking to projections of the people projecting them.
It's a miracle any communication occurs at all, and I'm sure most real communication is psychic, not verbal. Because words are pretty effing useless.
does this have anything to do with you making new distinctions? :)
There's nothing new, under the sun.
personal experience. There are topics where a person is writing about
his/her experience, and when someone tries to give opinions about that,
or argue about that...it can get absurd.
...but the interesting thing is why are you experiencing pain reading
any kind of responses?
Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi...pretty much nailed it when it comes to opinions.
Why would someone experience pain about an opinion, even if someone
was ignoring what others think, and kept driving his/her opinion?
It is probably because, as I wrote above, you are not seeing the difference
between opinion, and the description of an experience that someone is
trying to communicate using words.
And, when this happens, it is also possible that you are not seeing the
difference between the description of an experience, and the experience
itself, and these are two completely two different things.
Since you didn't write any example at all, and just wrote that:
your opinion, and a conceptual interpretation of your perception.
...and don't really understand how you saw that this TOPIC fits in with this
Spirituality, Consciousness, & Awareness sub-forum.
...the tone of your whole post is based on you making an assumption and
taking things personally...because if you didn't do these two things, you
wouldn't feel any PAIN and wouldn't write this useless post, or would have
written it in another, more appropriate place on this forum.
I don't think a person's self-expression is ever useless.
this in itself implies using our self-mind. I responded to it, to point out its
uselessness...and to point out why the OP was experiencing PAIN :)
...which means I was trying to point to what is causing it!
...and by useless, I pointed out that it's useless in this sub-forum, because
I don't see that this sub-forum is about discussing how you experience
pain that you feel about assumptions and taking things personally.
...plus it was posted without giving any "example" just saying that I feel
pain because "some" people are not listening to opinions...blah...blah...blah
...this basically means that what the OP wrote could mean that all posts
that Steve Pavlina writes, are posts where Steve Pavlina is absolutely certain
that he is the epitome of correct information, and anyone who disagrees with
him is either a) stupid, b) misinformed, c) going straight to hell, or d) all of the above.
...this can easily be interpreted in this way, and this is WHY it is useless, and
you as a mod, should have seen this distinction. It is not self-expression, it is
more or less "sloppy writing"...lol...that just opens up a can of worms, and leads
to more assumptions...instead of clarity...okay?
...but maybe I'm wrong, and it is a very "useful" thread, and can help us all
become more spiritual, conscious, and aware.
...as I pointed out in my self vs no self thread...distinctions are what create
reality, and what create clarity, and I didn't see a distinction being made in
the original post...I just saw a 100% assumption in relation to MANY OF THE
THREADS on this forum. (this bolded part is WHAT was written in the original
post, in case you didn't read it.)
On the other hand, sometimes it is good to shut down other people's opinions. For example, nobody could ever convince me that torturing a human infant for fun would be a good idea. I wouldn't even entertain such a person. They are flat-out a) stupid and b) misinformed. ;)
It's like they say... If you're too open-minded, your brains will fall out.
CuriouslyRandom - Reminds me of the famous phrase "Would I rather be right or happy?" Thanks for bringing this up. I've noticed the same thing and have just recently mentioned it on the forum.
It seems to me that when we were kids, we started trading our authenticity for a need to be right - swapped our internal for external validation, wanting to be approved of, accepted by others, belong. With our indoctrination in school, culture, family, it doesn't suprise me.
And the need to be right can go very deep and be very subtle, especially around people who have had psychological/spiritual background, because our jargon can be used to hide/mask our need to be right. I've watched people agrue even though they know they are right, and even when the facts don't support it.
I've spent years delving into this, not just for myself, but to help others see and accept themselves, and just yesterday I caught myself in a need to be right with someone on this forum. ha! Well, at least I'm catching it when it happens so the damage is less. :rolleyes: I feel so strongly about this, that part of my work is to bring us back to our authentic selves so that we have a more effortless life in every way - relationships, career, everything.
I feel that the need to be right is at the heart of all arguments, conflicts, many relationship break ups, religious conflicts, and wars. I've noticed that the more I fully accept and acknowledge myself, and the more I can see everyone and everything as sacred, the less I need others to agree with me. In fact, the less I perceive something as a compliment or an insult.
But in the spirit of this thread....I'm willing to be wrong about all of that. :)
Thanks again for posting this thread!
Is it even possible to have a fully open mind?
Even someone who entertains opinions outside their own has still made the decision to have an open mind, which is a closed off opinion, especially if you criticize other people for not being as open as you.
Its kind of like that athiest quote that says they just believe in one less god than christians. Perhaps those people are just not open on one less issue than you. :D
...many people don't really grasp that "knowing" is not an opinion, belief, conviction,
concept, emotion, feeling, or anything else for that matter.
...there is nothing that we actually "know" for-itself and as-itself
...we only perceive what something is in relation to something else, and this
is not "knowing" what something "is."
...we can make clear distinctions, but we can't really know anything.
...asking a question "how do you know...what you know?" -- until you reach
the answer "I don't know how I know what I know" basically shows that while
we think we know something...in reality we "believe" we know something
...and these are two different things!
...even the question, of, "how do you know that you exist?" when taken
to the end, the answer is "I don't actually know, how I know that I exist"
...I just do!...lol
...the majority of people never ask HOW do they know, and this is why they
think they know something :)
I'm right and you're amphibolous!
I'm right and you're sunfast!
I'm right and you're butch!
I'm right and you're covered with one or more layers of flat platelike cells!
I love Mad Libs. :)
Huh. Writing a post before I crash for the night is perhaps not always the wisest thing to do. I could have phrased things a little more clearly. I apologize. I was very tired at the time and my communication filter shuts off around 9 PM. :rolleyes:
"Many" was too strong a word. I'd just finished reading several posts where replies had contained the opinions that were stated as fact, and it bothers me when people do that. I was raised to be a fact-checker, and that's what I do. If I don't feel I can win an argument with facts to back me up, I generally won't get into it.
The replies that bothered me so much were phrased in such a way as to make the poster feel like an idiot, saying "I'm right and you are wrong, therefore you are going to hell, as are all these other people who don't understand the TRUTH." I find that to be offensive. Why? Because I hold my own opinions, of course. And quite frankly, making someone feel bad about something they came here asking advice for is pretty cruel and petty IMO.
I'm not saying people can't have differing opinions, just don't shove them down throats. That's all.
I've worked with it in numerous settings and found it to be a fairly elegant approach, particularly in groups that contain very divergent ideas. You start with the underlying assumption that the other person or group is acting in good faith and with valid reasons for his/their positions. Another key component is to listen fully, waiting until the thought is completed, rather than mentally or actually jumping in as soon as you hear something with which you take issue.
Medea, I like the sound of that!
Me too. I liked it when I first heard it used and even more as the core philosophy has been refined through long practice. Pat has been walking the walk beautifully and flawlessly for years, without ego, and has allowed her work to be informed by everything she learns from using it.
Gracious Space — Center for Ethical Leadership
imo, those who see life in terms of black and white are those who are overly attached to the idea of being right, correct and in general to knowing the absolute truth (which they are absolutely sure exists!).
These folks get threatened when others see things differently because it threatens their own convictions.....and within a belief system that says 'ultimate truth' exists and that it's of the utmost importance to find it, it can feel incredibly scary to be floundering between the perception of knowing and not knowing.
personally when I finally fully embraced the fact that my beliefs are just that....MY beliefs, and that I just might change them at any given time..... and that no one else needed to accept the beliefs that I am choosing for them to be 'okay' to hold, it was an immense relief.
An attachment to 'being right' and to having others acknowledge our 'rightness' is a state of being, imo that can cause unnecessary strife.
In a forum such as this, the fine line between stating opinions as personal beliefs and stating them as undisputable 'truth' or facts is a fine one.....the difference often lies in the subtleties of phrasing.
The following is MY truth regarding the issue of truth: Truth is in the eye of the beholder. It is a concept that can have us spinning circles if we feel the need to defend our version of it. The belief in a universal ultimate truth often indicates an attachment to have all the answers nailed down. I don't think as physical beings we're meant or equipt to have ALL the answers...if An answer to all questions does actually exists!...lol...just MY opinion.:)
have to write who it was that was doing the shoving and in who's throat
something was being shoved :)
...just an example of the structure of the conversations that you are
relating to. This means the main elements, because obviously, it wasn't
stated like: "I'm right and you are wrong, therefore you are going to hell, as
are all these other people who don't understand the TRUTH."
it in your original post. And absolutely everything is as BLACK and WHITE as it seems.
...This is because there is a clear DISTINCTION between one thing and another, and
black, white, shade of gray, or any other shade, are all distinctions. Maybe you're not
totally aware of distinctions, or the differences between one thing or another, and how
anything you perceive is distinct from everything else, or at least you haven't been aware of
it up to now, as you read these words, or the words I wrote to Inri in the next post.
...This is probably why you feel PAIN from reading posts in these forums...you are not
making the distinctions between what the person is writing and your INTERPRETATION and
ASSUMPTION about what he/she is writing...the MEANING you are giving what is written.
...I really doubt you can show a few quotes of exchanges between members in this forum
where the exchange of words is something like you desribed in your original post. Since this
is a public forum, you can do this, and it would have actually made your original post, much
more clear, and there would be something that could be discussed, except for what we
are discussing as of this moment...which is an assumption of that what you wrote actually
happened...and not as a fact that it happend. This is because there was NO example, of what
you were talking about...just a general statement...with NO clear distinction.
...since there are really no distinctions to be made, since you wrote that all these things
you observed in some mysterious posts in this forum, I guess, this makes your original
post incomplete...to say the least.
...that I have to make here: absolute truth can't be known, it can only
...and this is a very, very, very important distinction!
...which basically means that an Absolute Truth (which includes everything,
and why it is called ABSOLUTE) can't be described with words, because
language and the words that we use when we communicate are relative
to other words, and in addition to this, there are many different meanings
for each word, and many different dictionaries have different meanings,
and each person has his/her own conceptions, opinions, beliefs, convictions,
...and this makes it IMPOSSIBLE to describe or to know Absolute Truth.
...plus I would love to see a quote from this forum where someone has
written that he/she KNOWS the Absolute Truth.
...and assumption or interpretation by you obviously doesn't count, because
assuming that you know that they know.
...so you are basically saying that you don't know that you only have an
opinion about it...don't you think that is a little strange?
...you write that IMO...and then you write that in general that these people
that you have an opinion about KNOW the absolute truth, and that they
are ABSOLUTELY SURE that it exists!
...don't you find that having an opinion about what others know and are absolutely
sure about kind of pointless? Why don't you ask them right out about it, why have
an opinion about it...and leave it at that? Especially if you write so many words
about it, and actually don't know if they think they know, or if you are simply
ASSUMING that they know.
...either way, most likely you will not find this kind of statement in this forum
and because of that, what you wrote most likely is an ASSUMPTION without
any real basis or evidence to back it up with!
for 100%! Truth can't be a concept, even by definition. The belief in a
universal ultimate truth...is a BELIEF in a universal ultimate truth...it is not
the truth itself. If this is your opinion...then it is your opinion...and it doesn't
matter if it is about the truth or Marry Poppins.
...something close to the truth is that we "don't" know anything...actually,
and not that we do. If you think you know something, anything, HOW do
you know that you know it? There is no answer to this, because we as humans
simply don't know HOW we know...which basically points toward an interesting
realization...that we are living in a state of not-knowing, and are confusing
our thoughts, opinions, beliefs, convictions...etc...with knowing.
a shade of gray...is one of them :D
...and maybe your MOTTO explains why you write what you write, and in the
way that you write it, and it is quite possible if you started using distinction
instead of that motto...your writing would be much more congruent.
cool concept. It is more like LYING to yourself...and nothing more...lol
...making ASSUMPTIONS is what creates the CONFLICTS in the first place!
...now, if people stopped assuming and taking everything personally, and
started to make clear distinctions and seeing the actual differences between
one thing and another...there REALLY wouldn't be a need for conflicts.
...this is the PROBLEM with concepts, like "assuming that the other person or
group is acting in good faith and with valid reasons for his/their positions" they
are NOT based on truth...but on an assumption, and this is why these concepts
sound good, but in reality they don't work out the way people think they will work out.
...the truth is that you don't know if the other person or group is acting in good faith
and with valid reasons for his/their positions...why assume/lie to yourself about it?
...what is the point of lying, why can't the truth that you don't know just be accepted?
What I'm trying to point out in this thread, is that opinions and assumptions
are what create conflicts, and if you think that someone is trying to say
that he/she "knows" everything and that he/she is the epitome of correct
information, and anyone who disagrees with him/her is either a) stupid, b)
misinformed, c) can go straight to hell, or d) all of the above...then you
will KNOW for sure and can simply IGNORE that persons posts or threads.
This is much better than feeling PAIN after/during reading someone posts
that cause you that kind of suffering/stuggle.
In other words stop ASSUMING and simply aks!
...and everyone knows that saying about making assumptions...right? :D
...By the way, I perfectly understand the desire to be sure about things, but
making an ASSUMPTION is not the same as getting an ANSWER directly, and
this is what I recommend. Once you have an answer you don't need to assume
anything...you will have the answer.
...and the second part, is not to take things so personally, because if you don't
take it personally, there can be no pain or struggle either.
...so if one stops assuming and taking things personally, it is very possible to reduce
the majority of the conflicts in life, and the majority of the pain/struggle we experience.
A buddhist monk told us a story how he, as a novice in a temple in Burma, tried to edify his teacher, the abott. He said: "That man had been a monk long before I was born. And I thought I knew better..."
He mentioned this to bring our attention to the idea of the false "equality", many people like to assert.
He gave us another example: "If the topic were financial management, how to manage the temple's finances, for example, I would have been in the position of authority. Because that was my field of expertise. And the abbot could have sit at my feet. But in the matters of the human mind and how to deal with it, I was the one to humbly listen.
So, of course, on chat forums too there are people with their fields of expertise, experienced people who know what they are talking about. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are always right but they probably know far more about the subject than others who just try to assert themselves and who often resemble that young monk who was trying to mentor his old teacher. Who, by the way, just smiled gently at his student's folly.
Inri: "Truth is in the eye of the beholder.....?"
This 'truth' (belief) of yours doesn't make sense to me
In other words I think, with likelihood, that YOU'RE WRONG :) [& as I have a different belief to you about what's true, then you think what I believe is likely wrong too. What's the problem with that, where's the pain? Once you acknowledge there is a conflict of opinion and don't take that personally, then there is no problem. Unless that is, one feels so insecure about one's own belief that one feels under threat from any difference of opinion. Or one perceives the other person so confident as to be patronizing of you or close-minded (above) what you are saying; again this is about ego / self-image]
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, opinion is in the eye of the beholder, subjective experience is in the eye of the beholder....
but truth is...... truth, irrespective of the beholder.
We construct images called beliefs that we hope correspond to the truth of what actually exists beyond our sense organs; and SOMETHING DOES exist beyond our sense organs irrespective of who we are and what beliefs we have constructed,... and that something is THE truth.
You may believe it true that "absolutely ANYTHING that we can imagine, is possible to create" [from your webpage]. You're wrong. That's not true, ie that belief that you hold doesn't correspond to the truth. That's my opinion. Because I believe something different to be true with regards that. You might believe that you can fly, you may imagine it vividly and desire it with all your passion and fibre, until you are certain that it is true. DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. Might make it seem true. But that is only your subjective experience of a reality that only exists in your imgination, make believe - IT'S NOT TRUTH. And should you step off the 52nd floor expecting to create flight, the TRUTH of what's OUT THERE would smack you in the face in about 6 seconds. Do you doubt that?
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