I'm right and you're (fill in the blank)

[Vibration]

Originally Posted by inri

OMG...you've stated this soooo perfectly! (could I have permission to quote you on my website?)

Our perceptions apply to ALL of our experience...even the experiences that we're positive occur outside of our perceptions...we cannot, while physically based, escape the confines of our mind or physical experience...lol...imo!

Vibration...I love the way you think! haha...I'm a little jacked up on coffee this morning...rarely drink the stuff so perhaps I'm getting a tad overexcited here....but your post mirrored my morning musings to a 't.' Thanks!

Certainly, you may quote me.

My name is Don Davis, e-mail: don@davishouse.net

I really like your website, by the way.

[Vibration]

Originally Posted by Psilocybin

For the person who jumps off a cliff and thinks he can fly, he has a dangerous amount of delusion. Most of us I believe have a healthy amount. If delusion exists in our world and in people's minds, does that not make it a reality of this earth?

Yes.

Before the airplane became a physical reality of this earth, it was first a delusion (according to some) in someone's mind. Could the physical airplane exist, had the mental delusion of it not occurred first?

Doesn't the physical airplane then testify to the reality of the delusional one?

We have turned being delusional into an art:

Asimov's Science Fiction

It might seem to some that eliminating delusion from their thinking is a good thing, but I posit that it isn't, and further, that you can't, even though you may want to.

Ultimately thoughts (distinctions) are just tools we use to make something happen, get something done, get us things that we need, like airplanes or good science fiction, or keep something bad from happening to us like being eaten by lions, or the modern day equivalent of losing your job to someone more impressive.

So what kind of thoughts one should have becomes a matter of choosing the right tool for the job at hand.

[Moonshine]

Originally Posted by Psilocybin

If what you're saying that reality is based only upon what science tells us is real, then if we all weren't somewhat delusional there would be no soul... no religion... no hope... no karma... no concepts. "Reality is" - is interpreted a million different ways.

Concepts don't exist outside of the mind. They are what the mind constructs to make sense of the sense data it gets from your sense organs. Some concepts, such as 'beneath the skin there is a circulatory system that consists of blood being pumped by a heart' correspond to something that actually exists OUT THERE. Whereas some, such as 'beneath the skin there is treacle being shoved along by a tiny little man on a tiny little bicycle' have no correspondence to anything that ACTUALLY exists OUT THERE...it only exists as imagination.

Originally Posted by Psilocybin

So you might be right, but it is obviously in our human nature to use this mind over matter to accomplish things that were originally thought to never be accomplished. If I only believed that "reality is" and lived by that rule, then I probably would be no different than a common squirrel.
Our imaginative minds have no physical barriers. And we are what we think.

Sure, you can imagine whatever you like. But unless you just want to live in an imaginary world (such as with the drug addict), you have to interact with WHATS OUT THERE. And so when you find the picture that you've contructed in your mind is at odds with what you experience moving about in 'WHATS OUT THERE', then what do you do? Well, you change your picture don't you, because you know it's false, an illsuion that only exists in your imagination.

Originally Posted by Psilocybin

For the person who jumps off a cliff and thinks he can fly, he has a dangerous amount of delusion. Most of us I believe have a healthy amount. If delusion exists in our world and in people's minds, does that not make it a reality of this earth?

Delusion is not a physical thing in that sense, it only exists in 'mind', not OUT THERE, outside the mind.

Originally Posted by Psilocybin

In a situation where everything won't be okay. The delusional concept of thinking that everything will be okay, is a good one. In this scenario, I wouldn't think that reality is because that doesn't make me feel any better. Does that make me delusional but self confident? I think it certainly does. I just figure I won't fux with a good thing. Besides, if I thought I could fly then I would either be in the sky right now flying or too dead to be talking to you here.

Well, its true that when faced with something unpleasant and daunting, sometimes we might stick our heads in the sand and deny that challenge actaully exists, we might take to wishful thinking - and none of that ACTUALLY makes a blind bit of difference to what ACTUALLY is out there, only your experience of it & reaction to it. Now, if confidence is a critical factor in that challange then in some circumstances that can be a positive thing. But you still at some point have to deal with the problem; at some point you have to lift your head out of the sand and face the music(reality), because wishful thinking doesn't make the ACTAUL situation go away, however confident it might make you might feel about yourself (see how egocentric that is). So usually I think what makes more sense is to know the truth. And deal with it. Apply your reason to it. And make the best move you see.

I'm not denying the effectiveness WITHIN the mind of things like positive self-talk or imagining the scenario that you want to bring about. We are talking about awareness of what is real OUT THERE and what isn't.

Originally Posted by Vibration

It might seem to some that eliminating delusion from their thinking is a good thing, but I posit that it isn't, and further, that you can't, even though you may want to.

We are each and everyone of us irrational and delusional in some of our thinking and beliefs. Intuitive thinking is part of our evolution, and it therefore serves a purpose. But we are all also naturally scientists, and that is how we find out about how the world actually works, each of us, everyday.

It may take a leap of imagination to conceive a highly unlikely (and actaully counter-intuitive) notion such as a big hunk of metal flying people through the air, and if such a thing had been imagined by someone a thousand years ago then they would have been labelled duluded no doubt. But in any event, it is the systematic scientific approach which actually turns those ideas from being 'IN THERE' as imagination to being 'OUT THERE' existing physically in the world.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

Something that catches my eye while reading through many of the threads on this forum is the absolute certainty by some posters that they are the epitome of correct information, and anyone who disagrees with them is either a) stupid, b) misinformed, c) going straight to hell, or d) all of the above.

It's painful to read those responses. It really is, because it shows how some people shut down and will not accept any opinion other than their own. And you know what? There are over 6 billion different opinions in the world on any topic you can think of. That makes for a wide range of right and wrong.

Shades of gray, people. Lots and lots of shades of gray. In other words, nothing is as black and white as it may seem.

Well said.

What many people don't get is that there is no ultimate truth, there are just viewpoints.

The truth can't be contained within words. Words are just weak attempts to simulate reality can can never be true. But some people don't get that. *Their* words are the ultimate truth and if you don't believe it, you are *wrong*.

Thank god people who are *wrong* aren't burnt at the stake anymore

[stealth87]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Well said.

What many people don't get is that there is no ultimate truth, there are just viewpoints.

Doesn't this then become the ultimate 'truth'? The statement that there are many viewpoints and individual 'truths'?

Curious as to what you think about that.

[Moonshine]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

What many people don't get is that there is no ultimate truth, there are just viewpoints.

Viewpoints of what?

I think what you're not getting is that yes there are just viewpoints in our minds, no-one here is denying that, we are observers. But OUT THERE, outside your mind, there is A real physical world that we live in & observe through our senses , the same one for all of us, and whatever viewpoint you have of that world doesn't change/create THAT world it just changes/creates YOUR 'world' (in your mind).

'Just' viewpoints might imply that each viewpoint is equally valid/plausible/meaningful as the next one. But the viewpoint that pigs can fly is not as plausible as the viewpoint that they can't! One corresponds to fact (actually confidence in likelihood, deduced from our senses), one to fiction. ie one corresponds to something true about how the world OUT THERE works, and one corresponds to make believe.

[alexplatups]

Originally Posted by Moonshine

Viewpoints of what?

I think what you're not getting is that yes there are just viewpoints in our minds, no-one here is denying that, we are observers. But OUT THERE, outside your mind, there is A real physical world that we live in & observe through our senses , the same one for all of us, and whatever viewpoint you have of that world doesn't change/create THAT world it just changes/creates YOUR 'world' (in your mind).

'Just' viewpoints might imply that each viewpoint is equally valid/plausible/meaningful as the next one. But the viewpoint that pigs can fly is not as plausible as the viewpoint that they can't! One corresponds to fact (actually confidence in likelihood, deduced from our senses), one to fiction. ie one corresponds to something true about how the world OUT THERE works, and one corresponds to make believe.

...this distinction is not being made by the majority of the folks that are
supporting this "7 billion viewpoints" theory.

...I have said it (probably 7 billion times...lol) in my posts, that there is a huge
difference between objective reality and how we as human beings perceive
and interpret this objective reality.

...and I'm not joking, they simply are not grasping this distinction at all, and
just keep saying "my reality" "my truth" "my this" "my that" ...etc...etc...etc

...it's like banging your head against the wall

...but, as you understand that the reason this happens, is because the
false-self is simply defending itself, and doing everything to survive in the
comfortable position, where it likes to think of itself as the creator of "my
reality" -- meaning "it's reality" as in the "false-self-reality."

...and if something as "out there" is accepted that exists without a RELATION to
this false-self...that could pretty much mean that this self is actually FALSE.

...and that what's OUT THERE...has nothing to do with this false-self...it just "is."

...and this is simply not something that can be tolerated by the false-self.

...so basically what you get, no matter how you try to explain it, is the
false-self thinking of a new way of surviving and defending itself, over and over

...but it's still fun, and keeps the thread rolling along, and supporting the OP
viewpoint...that some folks are always saying that they are "right" and everyone
else is wrong...which is obviously is all that counts, for the false-self, at least!

...the funniest thing though...is what it all boils down to is this: the folks in the camp
that supports the original post -- want everything to be in a nice little package, where
EVERYBODY IS RIGHT...LOL...and they just are calling it...their viewpoint...etc...but
to go even deeper...they just want to be right themselves...lol...and others to be wrong.

...because in the structure of the original post, is basically the component of that "the
viewpoint of [everyone has a different opinion...and there are many shades of gray]"

...which takes the position that it is the "right" viewpoint to have, and anyone that has
a different viewpoint and considers white, black, and every shade of gray a different
distinction...is "wrong."

...interesting...huh?

[stealth87]

Originally Posted by Moonshine

Viewpoints of what?

I think what you're not getting is that yes there are just viewpoints in our minds, no-one here is denying that, we are observers. But OUT THERE, outside your mind, there is A real physical world that we live in & observe through our senses , the same one for all of us, and whatever viewpoint you have of that world doesn't change/create THAT world it just changes/creates YOUR 'world' (in your mind).

'Just' viewpoints might imply that each viewpoint is equally valid/plausible/meaningful as the next one. But the viewpoint that pigs can fly is not as plausible as the viewpoint that they can't! One corresponds to fact (actually confidence in likelihood, deduced from our senses), one to fiction. ie one corresponds to something true about how the world OUT THERE works, and one corresponds to make believe.

Exactly. For all viewpoints to be valid, each one has to be equally plausible. Otherwise, no single viewpoint holds true, except for the 'self' that claims it to be.

It is a fantastic way to defend 'your' own beliefs. It provides a great shelter not to challenge beliefs and perspectives and step into what is. So, this leaves us with separation and mind created realities, which are what the 'self' wants and creates. The 'self' is then trapped in a little cocoon preserving it's life, beliefs and perspectives at the expense of what is.

Like Moonshine said, whatever viewpoint 'you' have, doesn't change what is, it changes the world in 'your' mind. Right now, reality is, in spite of what 'you' want it to be, or choose it to be. It just is.

This recognition is not a belief or perspective, but an actual experience. That is why it's crystal clear what alex and moonshine are referring to.

'I' have my own beliefs and perspectives, but it's not about that at all. It certainly isn't about repeating a fantastic idea and clinging to it. Rather, it's experience and using words to point it, not as a symbol itself.

[stealth87]

Originally Posted by alexplatups

...which takes the position that it is the "right" viewpoint to have, and anyone that has
a different viewpoint and considers white, black, and every shade of gray a different
distinction...is "wrong."

...interesting...huh?

Ironically, this claim has to be right in order to allow for the premise of different viewpoints to be expressed as reality.

Good point.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Moonshine

Viewpoints of what?

I think what you're not getting is that yes there are just viewpoints in our minds, no-one here is denying that, we are observers. But OUT THERE, outside your mind, there is A real physical world that we live in & observe through our senses , the same one for all of us, and whatever viewpoint you have of that world doesn't change/create THAT world it just changes/creates YOUR 'world' (in your mind).

'Just' viewpoints might imply that each viewpoint is equally valid/plausible/meaningful as the next one. But the viewpoint that pigs can fly is not as plausible as the viewpoint that they can't! One corresponds to fact (actually confidence in likelihood, deduced from our senses), one to fiction. ie one corresponds to something true about how the world OUT THERE works, and one corresponds to make believe.

OK...

but if someone chooses to make believe that pigs fly, it's a valid viewpoint for him. for whatever reason it makes sense to think that pigs fly for him. if we asked him why he believed it, we might get an interesting explanation that would expand our horizons.

if, however, we told him he was "wrong", and acted as if our idea that pigs don't fly is the only valid viewpoint, we'd create conflict. he'd get unhappy and he'd probably make sure to make you unhappy in return. and no horizons would be expanded.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by stealth87

Doesn't this then become the ultimate 'truth'? The statement that there are many viewpoints and individual 'truths'?

Curious as to what you think about that.

My viewpoint that there is no ultimate truth... is a viewpoint

[dream]

"I'm right and you're (fill in the blank)"

You can be right as long as I can stay beautiful.
Actually you are right about this thread.

[alexplatups]

It's ironic but me, stealth87, and moonshine are saying the same thing over
and over and over and over. And still, the people that are defending their
"self-conceptual-viewpoint" by the stuff they are posting keep pointing to
one simple fact...that they are not grasping one fundamental principle.

This principle is "distinction." There IS an ENORMOUS difference between
everything that is OUT THERE (as moonshine likes to put it) in the OBJECTIVE
REALITY, and what is IN THERE, in a human being's subjective reality, or what
is really his/her interpretation of this objective reality.

This interpretation provides meaning to your "false-self/ego" by relating
whatever is perceived, and giving MEANING to this perception in relation
to this false-self/ego!

This false-self/ego is always asking the question: "what does this MEAN in
relation to ME???"

This by the way includes what is perceived in the objective
reality (out there) and also what is perceived inside the "self-mind" itself,
which includes concepts, beliefs, opinions, assumptions, VIEWPOINTS, etc.

If you can't or don't want to GRASP the difference between objective reality,
or WHAT IS, and your interpretation of this objective reality (what is) then
you will live your life with a totally distorted perception.

The consequences of this distorted perception is that you will think that you
can change "objective reality" with your thoughts, beliefs, assumptions, etc.

...and this is IMPOSSIBLE. To change something in the objective world, you
have to actually go out there and manipulate objective reality DIRECTLY, or
send someone to do that for you, which in the end will be the same thing,
but done with another person's hands or robot's hands, or whatever.

...the manipulation of objective reality can't be done "inside" your mind, by
creating a different viewpoint, belief, assumption, viewpoint, etc. You have
to add an additional ELEMENT of "manipulating" this object in the objective
reality in some way.

...in the end, I would like to say that if you are not aware of the distinction
between "objective reality" that is OUT THERE as-itself, and for-itself, and
not for-YOU...lol...and your interpretation of this objective reality, then you
will be living in your mind, and obviously will be defending this position,
because it is this "self-mind/ego" is doing the defending of itself.

...since the self-mind/ego is a survival mechanism, all it can do is try to
survive, and this is why this viewpoint...EVERYONE is right in their own way
is so popular. But this is folly.

You might be right in your own mind, in your subjective perception of the
objective reality. But, if you don't make the distinction and don't know the
difference between objective reality as it is, and your perception/interpretation
of this objective reality, you will be like a two year
old that thinks that he is the Sole Creator of objective reality.

...and objective reality (parents, teachers, world) will always let you know
when your perception of objective reality is WRONG.

...so yes, if you are not perceiving objective reality as it is, you are wrong
in your perception/interpretation of this objective reality.

...if you think a pit-bull (objective reality) that is not YOURS is a cute pug
(subective interpretation of objective reality) and you go try to play around
with it, objective reality will let you know really quick that you are wrong
in your ASSESSMENT of it.

So yes, when it comes to making a distinction about objective reality, and
the interpretation of this objective reality, if you don't understand the
difference in your assessment of these two seperate "things" than you
are WRONG in your assessment...because there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

...and this is the major point of what is being made by me, stealth87, and
Moonshine, and what is being denied by the people that are denying this!

and for anyone that doesn't know, there is even a movie about me, so
this completely proves that I am always RIGHT !!!



...thanks to Monk for making the image and posting it on this site.

[alexplatups]

Originally Posted by stealth87

Adyashanti points exactly to what alex is saying here. Worth checking out.

YouTube - The Experience of No Self!

stealth87 posted this in my other thread...Present Moment Awareness,
and this guy really explains it quite well, and it becomes quite obvious
that the "self" does not want to ADMIT that there is a distinction between
objective reality and it's iterpretation of this objective reality!

and I would add these two video of his also:

YouTube - The Unseen Presence of Being

YouTube - The Falling Away of Personal Will.wmv

[Vibration]

Originally Posted by alexplatups

...The consequences of this distorted perception is that you will think that you
can change "objective reality" with your thoughts, beliefs, assumptions, etc.

...and this is IMPOSSIBLE...

Oh! Is that so?

YouTube - there is no spoon original english

I just watched this guy bend a spoon with his mind

[alexplatups]

Originally Posted by Vibration

Oh! Is that so?

YouTube - there is no spoon original english

...lol...one of my favourite parts of The Matrix part.1

...and yes, what this small boy is talking about is the deep truth, that is
the foundation of objective reality...which is nothing/infinity.

...but, as self-identities, we don't have direct access to this domain.

...and since objective reality is the only part that we can talk about, since
we can perceive it, and it is the same for everyone, as-itself.

...obviously our interpretations of it are different, but the objective reality
that is there...it IS there...as itself and for itself.

...anyone that doesn't believe this, there are many ways to prove that
objective reality is what it IS, and if you are not aware of this, then it
would be a waste of my time to explain this to you...

...but once you start making the distinction between objective reality and
your perception/interpretation of this reality, it becomes much easier to
manipulate objective reality, because you REALIZE that you have to, not
only think, but to also take action, which can include asking someone to do
something or creating a miachine that will do this manipulation for you.

[Vibration]

Originally Posted by alexplatups

...and yes, what this small boy is talking about is the deep truth, that is
the foundation of objective reality...which is nothing/infinity.

When you talk about nothing/infinity and when I talk about the zero-point field of total abstraction that is the underpinning of everything, are we both talking about the same thing?

YouTube - Zero Point Field

Hmm, I was looking for an explanation of the zero-point field on Youtube, but the one I found and included didn't quite suit what I was looking for.

[alexplatups]

Originally Posted by Vibration

When you talk about nothing/infinity and when I talk about the zero-point field of total abstraction that is the underpinning of everything, are we both talking about the same thing?

YouTube - Zero Point Field

Hmm, I was looking for an explanation of the zero-point field on Youtube, but the one I found and included didn't quite suit what I was looking for.

...I don't know, because this nothing/infinity is not in the domain of the
mind/intellect and because of this it can only be experienced directly, and
can't really be explained in a way that it is understandable.

...if it is said straight out, then it is a paradox for the mind, and is not
something that can or should be believed.

...but, in the most simplistic way that I can explain it, it sounds like this: the
being consciousness (nothing/infinity) and distinctions (nothing/infinity)
create our objective reality and also our subjective reality.

...and obviously we can't perceive being/consciousness or distinctions as
themselves because our perceptions are limited and are not designed to
observe the real nature of what we are.

...all we can perceive is what has been manifested by distinction, and
interpret it in our own unique way. To be aware of something as itself
and for itself...we have to experience it directly...without self.

...this is not an easy task, since the self is what we believe we are, so how
can a person be aware of something without relating it to himself?

...this is the main question that has to be answered!