Absolute Truth

[Angela]

Someone posted elsewhere that it's important to see absolute truth, which got me thinking that I've come more and more to recognize that there is no absolute truth. In a seminar recently, we were asked to come up with one thing that was absolutely true about sex, and in a group of 101 people, we could not come up with one thing that was absolutely true about sex. Amazing.

My question for you is: What do you know that is absolutely true? (about anything, not just sex). I don't mean things that you are absolutely sure of (like: there is a god/there is no god; I exist because I think; I prefer chocolate mousse royale over rocky road) I mean something that is TRUE, absolutely and for everyone and forever.

Is there such a thing as Absolute Truth?

[Adam]

The only absolute truths that I know of are in math... although I do not know whether math is always relevant or not.

[Angela]

Yeah, I was thinking of math and physical science, too; but aren't even these subject to question through things like quantum mechanics?

[ethereal]

All the sages proclaim that the only Absolute Truth there is, is "I". Not even "I am" because that implies existence which may or may not be true, but "I", the inexpressible and undefinable God/Reality/Truth/Tao/Subjectivity that allows anything to even be. All sentient life with self-awareness can express this Absolute Truth of "I", but everything else is just the mind's concepts/assumptions.

We take so many things for granted, like why are we even here? How do I even have this awareness, this consciousness? How are we even able to be here, discussing this topic, and questioning our own existence? Science just says, "well there was the Big Bang, and then there was evolution." What allowed for the Big Bang, and what allowed for evolution?

The main principle of Advaita Vedanta is that of non-duality, which is that whenever you have any kind of division at all it is the mind's concepts superimposing themselves over the true reality. What happens in non-duality is that there is no objectification possible. Any objectification means that there is a split between subject/object, which is a concept and cannot be the Absolute Truth. Yet, we are aware of our awareness, and that there is a "subject" that is aware of everything. The paradox is that in assuming there is a subject, it splits Reality into subject and object, no matter how deep you go within. The only way out is to realize that the subject is what is objectivising itself, i.e. subject does not even exist, the supposed "subject" is actually only subjectivity -- and it is the same as "I".

Not sure if that made any sense I took these ideas from Wei Wu Wei's books, highly recommend them if you enjoy giving yourself huge headaches

[Adam]

Well, math itself is abstract, so it doesn't have the burden of needing to exist in physical space. Physical, objective space can not be proven conclusively (and by definition, neither can subjective space), so we are left with "I" and all of our abstracts.

The only abstract that I know of that deals with truths is math... 1 = 1 is an abstract thought which is always true. 1 != 1 is always false... (that's "not equal" for those who aren't familiar with C style programming languages.) I can just as easily use x = x, or flat = flat, as the symbols don't matter, only the ability to compare equal values.

Of course, if I see "x = x + 1," rather than thinking that the statement is false, I'm going to think that we have an inexperienced programmer on our hands... x++ is so much easier to read, debug, type, and all sorts of things.

[Glorymist]

What ethereal said is true - - except that I might label it all as simply - - consciousness. Consciousness - - is. Consciousness is an absolute for anything and everything that exists - - except - - and this is just a theory I hold to - - God IT-self - - since that God would be - - um - - "pre"-consciousness ??

I haven't worked this one out quite yet - - but you get the idea.

HeH

Everything else would be consciousness. Even a rock - - would be consciousness at that level - - or it would not be a rock. It might not be conscious - - but it is - - consciousness as a rock.

[toptemp]

The only reason others are able to say 1=1 and so forth is because if we really think about it, each of our minds will tell us that this must be the case. Quantity equals quantity, just as 2*3=6. Though we have no objective proof, we accept the validity of these ideas because we have virtually no choice and they have proven to work.

Unfortunately, our minds don't easily grasp the truths found in concepts because they are too complicated for us. But just as I may not be able to solve some very difficult mathematical problem does not mean there is not a solution.

Some people misuse the privilege of doubt and take things too far and begin to question existence, etc but I think that's just ridiculous. Like Rene Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am."

My favorite when it comes to the question of absolute truth is when someone says, "There is no absolute truth," which refutes itself. I was actually thinking about this earlier and I determined that it is possible that the universe is change and the only constant is truth itself. e.g. I can say, "All things change," yet if I am to say such a statement I must really say, "All things change except for truth." I must say this because the former statement itself does not change.

[annie]

I've heard that all truth must be proved mathmatically.

I have a friend who claims she can prove IM & LOA mathmatically. She also claims that everything testifies of God (mathmatically)

Since, I'm not so great at math, I can't prove my absolute truths.

[AndyMartin]

Knowing doesn't come from mind. The mind cannot comprehend the whole, so it breaks of bits and pieces and tries to understand them on their own, in isolation from the other fragments and completely removed from the context of the whole. The problem is, you can't reassemble bits and pieces into transcendent truth. So anything conceived from thought can at best point towards the ineffable truth.

Knowing comes from our true nature, it comes before thought, before interpretation, before storytelling. All of our cultural myths are stories told of interpretations of experiences of knowing. So they are most useful in the context from which they arose, but they are not absolute truth.

Don't doubt that there is something absolute, but only when you return to the stillness before thought can you experience knowing. The important thing is not the interpretation or the story that comes from it, but what it teaches you about how to live in the world, what it teaches about integrity and compassion and the development of consciousness. That is emptiness made form.

[Adam]

"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all." -- Douglas Adams

[Angela]

Originally Posted by AndyMartin

Knowing doesn't come from mind. The mind cannot comprehend the whole, so it breaks of bits and pieces and tries to understand them on their own, in isolation from the other fragments and completely removed from the context of the whole. The problem is, you can't reassemble bits and pieces into transcendent truth. So anything conceived from thought can at best point towards the ineffable truth.

Knowing comes from our true nature, it comes before thought, before interpretation, before storytelling. All of our cultural myths are stories told of interpretations of experiences of knowing. So they are most useful in the context from which they arose, but they are not absolute truth.

Don't doubt that there is something absolute, but only when you return to the stillness before thought can you experience knowing. The important thing is not the interpretation or the story that comes from it, but what it teaches you about how to live in the world, what it teaches about integrity and compassion and the development of consciousness. That is emptiness made form.

So in other words, no.

[renie408]

I am not sure what you mean by absolute truth. Do you mean something that everyone believes or that applies to everyone whether they believe it or not? I don't think there is any one thing that EVERYONE believes absolutely. If there is an absolute truth that applies to everyone whether they believe it or not, the only thing I can think of might be 'do no harm'. Not many of us live it, but I think we should avoid doing harm. But I am not sure that is really an absolute truth.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by renie408

I am not sure what you mean by absolute truth. Do you mean something that everyone believes or that applies to everyone whether they believe it or not? I don't think there is any one thing that EVERYONE believes absolutely. If there is an absolute truth that applies to everyone whether they believe it or not, the only thing I can think of might be 'do no harm'. Not many of us live it, but I think we should avoid doing harm. But I am not sure that is really an absolute truth.

I'm not sure what I mean, either. I'm fishing to see what people have to say about absolute truth, because I've seen that term tossed around like beads at mardi gras. As for "do no harm," I think not only do lots of people leave that one off their must-list, but also how about you? Is "do no harm" absolute for you? I'm thinking if someone attacked your family, "do no harm" wouldn't be the first thing that came to mind.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by Angela

I'm not sure what I mean, either. I'm fishing to see what people have to say about absolute truth, because I've seen that term tossed around like beads at mardi gras. As for "do no harm," I think not only do lots of people leave that one off their must-list, but also how about you? Is "do no harm" absolute for you? I'm thinking if someone attacked your family, "do no harm" wouldn't be the first thing that came to mind.

I think that it should be. I am not sure I could stick to it, but I probably should. I think that I can avoid fear-based thinking which encourages me to believe that doing harm is justified in any situation.

[bellbird]

---deleted alinea about existence and experience---
---deleted bit about Love---
You know what: the more I think about it, the less I know what you would put to be an absolute Truth. Haha the absolute truth about it is, that it keeps changing! Absolute Truth is subjective. There you go!
Very hard indeed.... (seriously, I'm still pondering it) Oh man!

[renie408]

Originally Posted by bellbird

---deleted alinea about existence and experience---
---deleted bit about Love---
You know what: the more I think about it, the less I know what you would put to be an absolute Truth. Haha the absolute truth about it is, that it keeps changing! Absolute Truth is subjective. There you go!
Very hard indeed.... (seriously, I'm still pondering it) Oh man!

That is probably the closest thing to the absolute truth.

[Sunny]

Yes, there is an absolute Truth (note the capital "T") which is explained by all of the great mystical teachers that have walked our planet such as Buddha, Jesus, Krishna etc. The Truth is that 1.) everything that exists is made up of one unified energy which is outside of space and time. 2.) this energy is aware of itself or conscious of itself. 3.) because this energy is everything it desires nothing and is therefore a state of pure peace, love, joy, bliss etc.

When it comes to understanding our own individual experience of truth (note the lower case "t") it is helpful to be familiar with the Levels of Consciousness (LOC) as explained by Hawkins. You can find out more about this concept through reading this blog by Steve or the books Power vs Force and Transcending the Levels of Consciousness.

Our individual experience of truth will be different depending on which LOC we are in. For example, if you are in the level of Guilt your truth might be founded on a faith in a specific religious belief and be something along the lines of God is going to punish me for my sins by sending me to hell. If you are in the level of Reason your truth will most likely be built around logic, mathematics or science where you want to prove things. As you reach the level of Unconditional Love you release the linear, duality based paradigm and your experience of truth begins to align with subjective reality and unity. As we move up through the LOC the higher we go the closer our individual experience of truth comes to Truth.

So the reason it is difficult to discuss the concept of truth with others is because we are all at different LOC so our experience of truth is different. When you are at one LOC you "resonate" with others at your same level so you tend to flock together, you think the people at a LOC below you are "immature" and you think that people at a LOC above you are "crazy" . I put the words "resonate", "immature" and "crazy" in quotes because once you understand this concept you stop judging people for where they are and begin to realize that everyone is the perfect place for their own personal evolution and that no LOC is better or worse than another. An additional complicating factor to understanding truth is that our LOC may be evolving during our own lifetime so our experience of what truth is tends to change on us.

[Shaden]

The only absolute truth is we have the ability to choose our beliefs and therefore define our own absolute truths.

Yes, you might counter my point by saying that I begin with an assumption, but guess what; you have to begin with an assumption. Create an assumption from which beliefs arise. Too much thinking in the clouds doesn't get anybody anywhere.

[Gary]

When looking for the Truth,

If it is day time and you are looking at sunlight on the ground you will believe you can see the LIght.

If you look for that ray of light as it passes through space you can't see it anywhere. You only see its reflection when it impacts a manifestation.

If you look into the Sun, you will think you see the light. But it is only your eye responding to the ray of light emanating from the Source of Truth. It is Truth you see, but you are observing it from afar.

When you stand in the Sun, which is to adopt the consciousness of Life, and perceive Life and all its Emanations and reflections, You will know Truth.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by ethereal

The main principle of Advaita Vedanta is that of non-duality, which is that whenever you have any kind of division at all it is the mind's concepts superimposing themselves over the true reality. What happens in non-duality is that there is no objectification possible. Any objectification means that there is a split between subject/object, which is a concept and cannot be the Absolute Truth. Yet, we are aware of our awareness, and that there is a "subject" that is aware of everything. The paradox is that in assuming there is a subject, it splits Reality into subject and object, no matter how deep you go within. The only way out is to realize that the subject is what is objectivising itself, i.e. subject does not even exist, the supposed "subject" is actually only subjectivity -- and it is the same as "I".

Not sure if that made any sense I took these ideas from Wei Wu Wei's books, highly recommend them if you enjoy giving yourself huge headaches

I've been reading Jed McKenna's books recently, and he talks a lot about Truth, and "abiding non-dual awareness", but he never actually says what it is! So frustrating. I mean, what he took a whole book to convey, without success, you've made clear in one paragraph. Of course this paragraph doesn't equate to true understanding but I guess only achieving non-dual awareness would.

Time for me to give myself a headache or two

[wolfgang]

Truth must be that we are experiencing duality. And duality is true for everyone with an ego. I know, we are supposed to be able to experience oneness and the sages say oneness is the one real truth.

I'd say duality and oneness are both the truth together in some mind bending way. Like light behaves like waves and/or particles.

[Anagogy]

As long as you exist in a reality with "frames of reference", truth will always be subjective, as the reality most experience is a metaphysical combination of various bonded illusions.

However, one day, you may not exist in a such a reality and the story will be different...

[IndigoKim]

I think that the only absolute truth is: love.

[Nneka]

Andy Martin said it best. Trying to understand with our minds is futile in finding absolute Truth. You know absolute Truth in you. As Ethereal pointed out, it is that there is only ONE. You only know that Truth through your experience.