Personal Development for Smart People^TM Forums

pinky3 · 07-26-2010, 08:05 AM

As a Catholic I am very aware of "right" and "wrong" (maybe another marker on my map Angela)

We have always been told A is wrong and B is right and there is no in between. This to me has caused so many self-limiting beliefs for me that I find it hard to make decisions for myself.

In my mind the only rules to live by are
"Do unto others as you would have done unto you"
And the ten commandments (all of which fit into my first statement)

The there are the Catholic set of rules which in my mind don't always fit into the ten commandments. I was always taught about hell, purgatory, limbo (there's no mention of purgatory or limbo in the Bible)... so who made it up?
I was taught about venial sin, original sin and mortal sin... all of which make m\no sense to me. So we have a loving God who forgives all... unless it's a mortal sin. When I asked a priest... what is a mortal sin? He could not give me a satisfactory definition.

I started to wonder why there are rules. My conclusion. The rules are there not as RULES in the sense of "do this or you'll be punished! But rather... If you do this you will have a full and happy life. If you don;t your punishment will be the consequences. I don't know why a God who is said to be our loving Father would punish us and banish us to Hell... for all eternity. Huh?

How this affects my life:
I have been going out with my boyfriend for 5 years... and he has accepted the fact that I am waiting for marriage before we have sex. Five years is a LONG time to wait. He has never forced me to do anything I don't want to do. But occasionally we get carried away... now my mind automatically goes to the "Catholic" God up there wanting to punish my every action. And I automatically become the lowly sinner who needs to pay for her sins.
If I take my belief of why the "rules" are set in place... what is the reason for not being able to be intimate with my boyfriend, and probably, future life partner?

If there is no chance of conceiving a baby (which I believe would be the reason behind waiting for marriage; stable home environment, loving family etc) then what would the reason be? Why should I feel a deep, painful gui;t every time I sit in church and say the words "bless me Father for I have sinned... blah blah blah..."

I have a feeling the Catholic Church has created more psychological illnesses; guilty, unhappy people; rebellious teenagers; etc than actually helping people to live a full and happy life. It makes no sense... and it makes me angry. But it is something I can't run away from because it's so ingrained in my head that any decision I make automatically makes me go to that place "what's right and what's wrong". To me that is not a healthy, stable relationship with God.

Any thoughts on the subject?

lifetimelearner · 07-26-2010, 01:57 PM

hey sweetie !
trust me you are not telling me anything that I never felt myself

and what you say here is how I feel too-

"I have a feeling the Catholic Church has created more psychological illnesses; guilty, unhappy people; rebellious teenagers; etc than actually helping people to live a full and happy life. "

up until I was 19 I was a good catholic girl followed the rules,went to church and I even went to' catholic teen camp'

but then something changed and
I rebelled
and then I got myself into a situation
of being date-raped for my first time having sex

then I was really mad at this god

you need to do what I finally did and make peace with your spirituality -it's not easy but it can be done

have you read Tolle by chance -he has some interesting things to say about religion

pianoperformer · 07-26-2010, 02:21 PM

I wish I could help, but you know I'm going through a similar conflict. All I can give is my own experience.

There was a time, and I still fall into this quite often, when I emphasize God's justice over His mercy. When I first started studying the Catholic Church two years ago, it was this way for a while. If you ask certain people, they believe that practically every little thing is a mortal sin. I was told in RCIA that a white lie would be a mortal sin, which I find hard to believe. Other people, to the frustration of this first camp, believe that a mortal sin is only the gravest of sin (killing/stealing/very serious deceit, ETC).

I've seen people who literally fear for their lives after a perceived "mortal sin," until the next time they are able to get to confession. They fear that they might get into an accident and immediately go to hell, because they couldn't get to confession in time. I know a lady who has a lot of psychological problems, and she hangs onto the Church for dear life, but also feels accused by it for every little thing she does.

I took some philosophy and theology classes last year. They say that hell is only for those who choose it, or rather who choose themselves over God. But most people I know are doing their best to be good, while still being able to enjoy life. No one I know is intentionally trying to offend God, nor would any person I know choose hell over God given the choice.

My fiance and I run into the same problem about physical intimacy. Many strict Catholics, some of her family included, really don't think that there should be any physical intimacy at all before marriage, and that the furthest one should go is perhaps a quick kiss. Being engaged now, I can't help but disagree with that; I believe that the physical aspect of a relationship, while it must be kept under control and within the boundaries we set for ourselves, it also must be explored and experienced.

Probably the best thing I did was taking philosophy classes last year. They helped me to realize that not everything is black-and-white, but there is a lot of gray in the middle. It has taught me that many philosophies discuss the same issues from different prospectives, and the best solution is to keep an open mind and carve out your own path through the multitude of philosophies. It has strengthened my resolve never to accept a doctrine because someone says it is correct, but logically parsing through it myself.

Anyway, like I said I can't offer much in the way of an answer for myself, but those are my thoughts. Hopefully they help some.

JoePike · 07-26-2010, 03:45 PM

I was raised Catholic and still have a great respect for the Catholic church. It's a beautiful Christian religion, and my parents are still very entrenched in it.

However, I have been much much happier since I let it go. I have none of the guilt or shame I used to feel. I don't believe I am a sinner by default, or that I'll be judged and punished for my unforgiven sins when I die. I no longer believe in hell or purgatory/limbo, and my definition of heaven is much different now too.

As a non-Catholic, I choose to do what's right because it makes me feel good. I enjoy helping others and making others happy. I do not enjoy hurting others or causing pain. My filter for what's right and what's wrong is no longer based on 10 ancient commandments, but on what I know in my heart is the best thing to do.

I now feel that it's laughable that God is sitting up in heaven on his throne, tallying up the number of times his name was taken in vain, or church was missed, or someone told a lie (bearing false witness...), etc. And that a quick trip to the confessional and 10 hail marys will make it all better.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not mocking the Catholic Church or Christian beliefs in general. I'm just sharing my story. I'm a reformed Catholic and I'm much happier now. By the way, I totally think you should move forward with the energy healing thing. It's very real and can work wonders.

See...now someone could mock me for believing in energy healing! We're all on our own paths. Good luck with yours.

floslib · 07-27-2010, 01:47 AM

This is the view of an outsider to the church hierarchy, so it may or may not help you. Also worth noting is that I lean towards liberal Christian theology in my beliefs, but I don't really identify as a Christian since I remain undecided on whether I believe Jesus was a spiritual teacher or God incarnated. But, here's my two cents, and hopefully it will give you something to think about.

The Catholic Church is a human institution. Any church is a human institution. We made it. As such, it has its faults. The church does many good things, but it also does some bad things. Much like people in general. So while learning the teachings of the church will give you some guidance, you also have to use your inner moral compass to help you decide if a teaching is correct or not. Don't hand that power to the church, even if you are and remain a member.

If God thought it was so important that we do things a specific way, I think he'd do more to let us know what that way is than give us a 2000 year old book of questionable authenticity. He'd make sure there was no doubt in our minds... not just the minds of the religious, but all minds. Atheists wouldn't exist, because they would know his will. We don't live in such a world. We live in a world where people question and do their best to find the right path. So, to me, it seems like God would want us to do that, strive to be the best we can be, and reason our way through things. There are churches in support of all ideals. Some churches will marry gay couples, while others won't. Is one church not of God's flock? Or are they both doing the best they can, and hoping (and believing) they have it right? Would God punish them for not knowing when they have no way of knowing? From what I've heard of God's mercy and love, I find that hard to believe. (Incidentally, I do want to note that I don't think churches should be involved in civil rights disputes about civil marriage, and I think all couples should be allowed to marry, but for the purpose of religious marriage only, I think churches can make that call based on their beliefs.)

Instead, I think he feels intense sadness when we lose our way, and tries to help us find it again. Sometimes he's more successful than others, because he's also left us our free will, the ability to make our own choices and live with them.

So rather than follow every rule the church sets up, consider why the rule is there. If you don't know, ask your pastor. If your pastor can't give you a satisfactory answer, or you're uncomfortable talking about a given subject with your pastor, consider speaking with a pastor from another church, or finding one online at one of the online Christian forums that are around. If the answer makes sense to you, roll with it. If it doesn't, perhaps it's time to reexamine that rule and decide if you really want to follow it.

Or just follow your heart, and let it tell you what is right. From my understanding, that's what the Holy Spirit is for, to help us interpret God's word, so we can better make the right choices. I would carry it a step further, and say the Holy Spirit is at least partially a source of our sense of right and wrong so we can distinguish between the two.

Personally, I tend to stick to the idea that so long as I don't hurt anyone, it's ok to do what I want. Pretty simple, and makes moral questions pretty simple. Aside from that, it just feels right to me, and I don't see any obvious moral problems with that.

Also, from the Bible: 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

So I would say if there's another rule that would force you to violate those two rules, those two take precedence, as they are the most important.

Onto the issue of premarital sex, which seems to be the impetus behind your posting, I see no issue with it when done responsibly. As long as you're taking care of yourself (and by extension, your partner), and aren't bringing a new person into the world who you can't take care of, then there's no problem. Indeed, it is a great thing, an expression of love between you and your partner. And as love is the highest calling in Christianity, I can't see any issues with expressing that love. I don't think it's wrong to wait for marriage, if that's what you truly believe is right, but I don't think it's necessary, and it sounds like you're questioning that necessity yourself.

rei · 07-27-2010, 02:01 AM

Not directly experienced with the Catholic church but I did grow up around organized, fundamentalist(-ish) Christianity.

As I decided to make my own way, after getting unsatisfying answers to my questions, I came to my own understanding about certain aspects of faith and God.

About premarital sex, I came to see it this way (after participating in a ceremony to pledge waiting). Much of the original point was about disease and social stability (you can do some anthropological research for this, but check to see whether the source is biased for/against the church). To me, a loving and committed relationship IS a marriage, in the eyes of God - because there are only differences in the legal sector (human level, not God level). If the only thing missing is a piece of paper from the government, I don't see it as that much different. Safety is also a consideration, of course.

If you don't feel personally fulfilled by your spiritual path and connection to God, perhaps it may be helpful to figure out what would be fulfilling for you as a path. I've seen no evidence, whatsoever, that God punishes, least of all through some eternal torment.

Check into the translations of "sin," "hell" and "satan" - or, more accurately, mistranslations - and you will get a clearer picture of what those ideas originally represented (hint: they did not originally represent this grandiose personified battle between good and evil). I found this really helpful as I explored my own way of approaching spirit.

pianoperformer · 07-27-2010, 02:04 AM

floslib,

I really enjoyed your post.

I don't mean to answer for pinky3 or hijack this thread, but the problem is that the Catholic Church claims to be infallible on matters of faith and morals. That is, Catholics technically aren't allowed to disobey the Church on such matters, or else they are sinning. I don't say i believe this because I don't know, but I'm saying that's what can prevent Catholics from reasoning things out themselves.

Of course, most of them pick and choose anyway. Over 90% of Catholics use contraception, even though the Church is very much against it and says it is a mortal sin. There are people who will say that you are not Catholic if you don't agree with and follow every precept and law of the Church. It is even supposedly a mortal sin to eat meat on Fridays during lent; that is, it is a sin punishable by hell.

pinky3 · 07-27-2010, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

hey sweetie !
trust me you are not telling me anything that I never felt myself

and what you say here is how I feel too-

"I have a feeling the Catholic Church has created more psychological illnesses; guilty, unhappy people; rebellious teenagers; etc than actually helping people to live a full and happy life. "

up until I was 19 I was a good catholic girl followed the rules,went to church and I even went to' catholic teen camp'

but then something changed and
I rebelled
and then I got myself into a situation
of being date-raped for my first time having sex

then I was really mad at this god

you need to do what I finally did and make peace with your spirituality -it's not easy but it can be done

have you read Tolle by chance -he has some interesting things to say about religion

Thanks for your reply! Sorry for what you went through. I can understand anyone's anger at God for something like this.

I think finding peace is definitely something I need to do. Finding out what I want to believe or what I DO believe instead of what I'm supposed to believe.

I have read Tolle and think his views are awesome! I've only read A New Earth but need to read it again to refresh my memory

pinky3 · 07-27-2010, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoePike

I was raised Catholic and still have a great respect for the Catholic church. It's a beautiful Christian religion, and my parents are still very entrenched in it.

However, I have been much much happier since I let it go. I have none of the guilt or shame I used to feel. I don't believe I am a sinner by default, or that I'll be judged and punished for my unforgiven sins when I die. I no longer believe in hell or purgatory/limbo, and my definition of heaven is much different now too.

As a non-Catholic, I choose to do what's right because it makes me feel good. I enjoy helping others and making others happy. I do not enjoy hurting others or causing pain. My filter for what's right and what's wrong is no longer based on 10 ancient commandments, but on what I know in my heart is the best thing to do.

I now feel that it's laughable that God is sitting up in heaven on his throne, tallying up the number of times his name was taken in vain, or church was missed, or someone told a lie (bearing false witness...), etc. And that a quick trip to the confessional and 10 hail marys will make it all better.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not mocking the Catholic Church or Christian beliefs in general. I'm just sharing my story. I'm a reformed Catholic and I'm much happier now. By the way, I totally think you should move forward with the energy healing thing. It's very real and can work wonders.

See...now someone could mock me for believing in energy healing! We're all on our own paths. Good luck with yours.

I like your views! And I feel that way SOOO often! I think of God laughing down at us like we're little toddlers making up rules and deciding who's "the boss of the game".
I've never agreed with confession, haven't gone for years. God can hear me fine, thanks very much Mr priest

Thanks for your story

All of this input is seriously helping!

pinky3 · 07-27-2010, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floslib

This is the view of an outsider to the church hierarchy, so it may or may not help you. Also worth noting is that I lean towards liberal Christian theology in my beliefs, but I don't really identify as a Christian since I remain undecided on whether I believe Jesus was a spiritual teacher or God incarnated. But, here's my two cents, and hopefully it will give you something to think about.

The Catholic Church is a human institution. Any church is a human institution. We made it. As such, it has its faults. The church does many good things, but it also does some bad things. Much like people in general. So while learning the teachings of the church will give you some guidance, you also have to use your inner moral compass to help you decide if a teaching is correct or not. Don't hand that power to the church, even if you are and remain a member.

If God thought it was so important that we do things a specific way, I think he'd do more to let us know what that way is than give us a 2000 year old book of questionable authenticity. He'd make sure there was no doubt in our minds... not just the minds of the religious, but all minds. Atheists wouldn't exist, because they would know his will. We don't live in such a world. We live in a world where people question and do their best to find the right path. So, to me, it seems like God would want us to do that, strive to be the best we can be, and reason our way through things. There are churches in support of all ideals. Some churches will marry gay couples, while others won't. Is one church not of God's flock? Or are they both doing the best they can, and hoping (and believing) they have it right? Would God punish them for not knowing when they have no way of knowing? From what I've heard of God's mercy and love, I find that hard to believe. (Incidentally, I do want to note that I don't think churches should be involved in civil rights disputes about civil marriage, and I think all couples should be allowed to marry, but for the purpose of religious marriage only, I think churches can make that call based on their beliefs.)

Instead, I think he feels intense sadness when we lose our way, and tries to help us find it again. Sometimes he's more successful than others, because he's also left us our free will, the ability to make our own choices and live with them.

So rather than follow every rule the church sets up, consider why the rule is there. If you don't know, ask your pastor. If your pastor can't give you a satisfactory answer, or you're uncomfortable talking about a given subject with your pastor, consider speaking with a pastor from another church, or finding one online at one of the online Christian forums that are around. If the answer makes sense to you, roll with it. If it doesn't, perhaps it's time to reexamine that rule and decide if you really want to follow it.

Or just follow your heart, and let it tell you what is right. From my understanding, that's what the Holy Spirit is for, to help us interpret God's word, so we can better make the right choices. I would carry it a step further, and say the Holy Spirit is at least partially a source of our sense of right and wrong so we can distinguish between the two.

Personally, I tend to stick to the idea that so long as I don't hurt anyone, it's ok to do what I want. Pretty simple, and makes moral questions pretty simple. Aside from that, it just feels right to me, and I don't see any obvious moral problems with that.

Also, from the Bible: 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

So I would say if there's another rule that would force you to violate those two rules, those two take precedence, as they are the most important.

Onto the issue of premarital sex, which seems to be the impetus behind your posting, I see no issue with it when done responsibly. As long as you're taking care of yourself (and by extension, your partner), and aren't bringing a new person into the world who you can't take care of, then there's no problem. Indeed, it is a great thing, an expression of love between you and your partner. And as love is the highest calling in Christianity, I can't see any issues with expressing that love. I don't think it's wrong to wait for marriage, if that's what you truly believe is right, but I don't think it's necessary, and it sounds like you're questioning that necessity yourself.

Thanks for your input! The weird thing is, you think a lot like me

only I don't believe myself when I say things like that!

The greatest man in the world (my dad

ha ha) is not a Catholic and has been saying since the beginning of time (when I was born ha ha) that as long as what you do doesn't hurt anyone then it can't be wrong. So I guess I should take my dad's advice more often

As far as the premarital sex issue is concerned... I agree with what you're saying. To add to that... I think marriage is a man made thing and it is only sacred when it is done in a sacred way... if that makes sense. So millions of people may be getting married "un-sacredly" yet they are allowed to do what they want with their partner. I have a sacred connection with my partner but just because we haven't had our man made ceremony we must act like brother and sister

ha ha

My decision is still to wait for marriage. I believe that is more a personal choice than a religious one (I know I'm contradicting myself) but I think I feel more happy about our existing intimacy than I felt previously.
Thanks for your help!

pinky3 · 07-27-2010, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rei

Not directly experienced with the Catholic church but I did grow up around organized, fundamentalist(-ish) Christianity.

As I decided to make my own way, after getting unsatisfying answers to my questions, I came to my own understanding about certain aspects of faith and God.

About premarital sex, I came to see it this way (after participating in a ceremony to pledge waiting). Much of the original point was about disease and social stability (you can do some anthropological research for this, but check to see whether the source is biased for/against the church). To me, a loving and committed relationship IS a marriage, in the eyes of God - because there are only differences in the legal sector (human level, not God level). If the only thing missing is a piece of paper from the government, I don't see it as that much different. Safety is also a consideration, of course.

If you don't feel personally fulfilled by your spiritual path and connection to God, perhaps it may be helpful to figure out what would be fulfilling for you as a path. I've seen no evidence, whatsoever, that God punishes, least of all through some eternal torment.

Check into the translations of "sin," "hell" and "satan" - or, more accurately, mistranslations - and you will get a clearer picture of what those ideas originally represented (hint: they did not originally represent this grandiose personified battle between good and evil). I found this really helpful as I explored my own way of approaching spirit.

Thanks rei! It's good to hear from you again

I like your ideals. And it does make a lot of sense to wait for marriage if things like diseases etc are concerned. I actually took an "oath" to wait for marriage and they made us promise to God! Talk about FEAR! Although everyone I took the oath with has broken it... oh no

I think I needed a better understanding before taking any oath... anyway.

Your views on marriage, strangely enough, are in line with mine... but my Catholic filter won't let me believe them. I am pretty much "married" to my boyfriend. He is my best friend, the man I want to have kids with etc and we are in a 100% committed relationship. That to me = marriage. So I see exactly what you mean.

I am thinking of exploring other avenues, religiously/spiritually. I think it is quite tricky because my boyfriend is actually not religious at all... so that makes it difficult to keep a spiritual relationship together. But that's something I hope will grow.

Thanks for your input it was valuable as always!

Hrvoje Butkovic · 07-27-2010, 08:11 PM

Hi Pinky

I was Catholic until about six years ago. Since leaving the Church, I’ve come across worldviews that are radically different from the one that I was raised with, which helped me recognise the cultural backdrop from which Christianity, and by extension modern society, arose. I will share a few of these pointers that you might find useful. If you think they are offensive or irrelevant, just disregard them.

Quote: